My Schatten clone build

[Phil m]

I've been busy finding bits and pieces for the last month or so to build myself a clone of the Schatten winder.

I'm not exactly done but since it works already I couldn't resist making a pickup with it

I'd like to thank David Schwabb for putting up pics of the guts of the Schatten winder and for his additional help through e-mails with this project.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/philmailloux/Winder-1.jpg

Here is the guts of the winder. An On/off switch, the 2.1mm jack for the wall wart and the 12 volt DC motor speed controller with its knob. The speed controller is a DIY kit from an electronics shop. The counter is a CUB3 it's activated with a reed switch and magnet. The magnet that came with it didn't work very well so I upgraded it with and alnico V musicman bass magnet that I incrusted in the wooden piece. I superglued two bearings to the sides of the plastic box for the steel rod. The steel rod I originally bought (had to buy a 4 meter length trough a steel supplier :rolleyes: ) wasn't straight and the winder wouldn't work properly. I was pissed but I upgraded to a bass neck carbon fiber rod for my tests, it's the only 1/4" rod I had lying around :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/philmailloux/Winder008.jpg

I had to drill holes in the wooden piece to accomodate the pole pieces coming out of the flatwork. That's why the bobbin is holding with two pieces of tape.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/philmailloux/Winder013.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v104/philmailloux/Winder026.jpg

and here we are half a musicman humbucker, I'm pretty happy the winder works. After doing this I now know that the plastic housing is crap and I'm going to buy an aluminium one to stick all the components in. I'll post another pic once the project is over.
BTW I've searched high and low for aluminium pulleys and can't find them anywhere for this thing and had to live with this crappy plastic set. If anyone's got any links to where you can find small ones for this project I'd be extremely happy. A lathe's too expensive to buy just to machine two pulleys.;)

[David Schwab]

Hey Phil, that looks great! You know the newer version of the Schatten has a plastic case too.

Glad I was able to help. :)

McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/) has aluminum pulleys starting at .425" outside diameter.

[ken]

Nice looking bass pickup you have there. Better cut that winder's mainshaft down before you poke an eye out or something... :D

I see you're using 'red' wire. What does it sound like in a bass?
I bought some 42 and 43 but I haven't tried it out yet.

Ken

[Phil m]

Hey Ken,

I didn't get to test the pickup physically yet. I just tested the output with a multimeter. That one is the 42 AWG that Stewmac sells. All the wire I ever bought was red so I can't really tell you the difference in other colors :D

Oh yeah and that shaft is coming out of that winder and will become reinforcing rods in a bass neck as soon as I can find flat 1/4" steel rods. In between that time I'll try not to poke my eye out :o

[Joe Gwinn]

BTW I've searched high and low for aluminium pulleys and can't find them anywhere for this thing and had to live with this crappy plastic set. If anyone's got any links to where you can find small ones for this project I'd be extremely happy. A lathe's too expensive to buy just to machine two pulleys.;)I got many mechanical components from Stock Drive Products/Sterling Instruments: http://www.sdp-si.com. It's best to get their paper catalog, as browsing on their website is clumsy.

[ken]

Hello...

Of course I was kidding about the 'poke your eyes out' thing. My son's been here watching 'The Christmas Story' movie 24/7 all week. :D

The wire you're using looks like solderon, plain enamel wire like Fender used
is kidney bean red (reddish brown) and Formvar wire is honey colored.

How long of a rod do you need?

Ken

[Phil m]

How long of a rod do you need?

About 8" long. You got spare 1/4" dia flat rods? :D

[David Schwab]

Of course I was kidding about the 'poke your eyes out' thing. My son's been here watching 'The Christmas Story' movie 24/7 all week. :D

I love that movie! I grew up on a Cleveland Street too. :)

[ken]

Phil - Email me support@angeltone.com, I have some rods.

Ken

[ken]

David, did you know the real house used as 'exteriors' in the movie is now a tourist attraction? A fan of the movie bought it and spent over half a million USD
buying it and the house across the street and redoing them to look exactly as they did in the movie. How'd he get the money? Making and selling those 'leg lamps' on the Internet.

No Lie.

Ken

[David Schwab]

Oh that's too funny! :D

[ken]

No really, I heard it on the radio one morning driving to work. At first I thought it was a joke, but I heard it again later in the day on a different station too.

Ken

[David Schwab]

No really, I heard it on the radio one morning driving to work. At first I thought it was a joke, but I heard it again later in the day on a different station too.

Ken

Yeah, it's real... A Christmas Story House (http://www.achristmasstoryhouse.com/)

And... the Leg Lamps (http://www.redriderleglamps.com/)

http://www.redriderleglamps.com/images/products/leg_lamp_50_in_deluxe/Delux-unlit-at-angle-small.jpg

[ken]

Hey Dave... nice leg you got there... :D

Ken

[London Customs]

Hi everyone!

I would like to build a winder as well!! Can I find schematics anywhere, or pics on how to build one?? Thnx in advance!

Paul

[ken]

hello...

You can try to find a copy of Jason Lollar's book on Ebay, or ask some of the other members what they are using. Some of us like to make our own winders out of 'available materials', or whatever we have onhand.

Ken

[David King]

A "universal" motor and rheostat pedal from an old sewing machine seems to be a favorite starting place. This motor usually drives a large pulley via a rubber belt. This pulley is mounted on a metal shaft that drives a turntable or platter of a suitable diameter, say 4-5" across to which the pickup bobbins can be attached and centered using locating pins or double stick tape. The pulley and platter might as well be the flywheel of the sewing machine since it's handy and already mounted on a solid base with excellent bearings.

[London Customs]

Thanx! I'm getting started on this as soon as I can! Can't find Lollars book anywhere, especially here in HOlland!

[David Schwab]

There's not much to the Schatten winder... mainly it's a box that holds a shaft attached to the motor by pulleys.

Here's the inside. You can see the motor with a belt. The black disk on the axle is for the counter, which is light activated. The wires going to the top are for the motor speed control.

[Spence]

Call me old fashioned but I think you should design a machine of your own rather than copying something like the Schatten winder. It will do the job but there's more to it than just a motor and counter in a nice box.
There's nothing wrong with a simplistic design, I'd agree but there are things about some winders that help you make better pickups than others.
Not trying to be cryptic but as an example, if an engineer, having never seen a violin was asked to build one using nothing but the required materials and tools of his choice it would probably not look like a violin and would probably sound sterile.
Leo Fender's winders were simple, almost crude, but they could turn out some wonderful - sounding pickups. I'd challenge anyone to match those old pickups with a Schatten winder.

[Phil m]

Leo Fender's winders were simple, almost crude, but they could turn out some wonderful - sounding pickups. I'd challenge anyone to match those old pickups with a Schatten winder.

I get it now, the voodoo isn't in the pickups in IN THE WINDER! It won't take long before some big time pickup manufacturer puts that one in their advertisements :D

[Spence]

Now you're knocking at the right door. The voodoo is in the pickups but it's dependent on the Witch Doctor and his tools.

Oh and I suspect you're right; someone will put that in their blurb before long :rolleyes:

[David Schwab]

Leo Fender's winders were simple, almost crude, but they could turn out some wonderful - sounding pickups. I'd challenge anyone to match those old pickups with a Schatten winder.

There's not a whole lot of difference in Fender's old winder and the Schatten... it's a motor with a belt that spins the bobbin and counts turns!

The Schatten has no tension control, no traverse, no nothin'! It has a guide with stops, but it's fairly useless... it's all in the fingers. You can't wind with it if you are not holding the wire.

The only difference between this and my original winder made with a sewing machine motor is a counter... and the motor is in a box.

I consider the Schatten a manual hand winder... I've seen fancier home made ones by the forum members!

I'd bet two people using the same Schatten and parts would wind very different sounding pickups.

[Spence]

Not quite alike. There was something of a slight flaw (from an engineer's point of view ) in the Fender winders that is not present in the Schatten winder.
Possum also has a good insight into some little design flaw ( delivering actual benefit ) in those winders.
It's pointless going on about it though because to most winders here, it's something that they couldn't and wouldn't live with.

[David Schwab]

Not quite alike. There was something of a slight flaw (from an engineer's point of view ) in the Fender winders that is not present in the Schatten winder.

Let's get rid of the voodoo for a moment, and think mechanically. Look at the Fender winder. There's only so much going on there. Very simple machine. It was a motor with a belt spinning a bobbin. It had a mechanical counter. Where's the flaw? Did the bobbin wobble or something? Supposedly the counter increased every second revolution. That still doesn't affect the way the coil is wound. The Schatten winder is mechanically the same. Just different, newer parts. The pickups I wound my my sewing machine winder 20 years ago sound pretty much like my current pickups, which is what I based them on. The winder, and the wire for that matter have made little difference.

I also don't think the old Fender pickups were all that magical. Besides sounding a bit dull today due to the magnets aging, they sound like a single coil pickup. I'm sure when they were new they were super bright... just like new pickups. Very old guitars do start to sound better though for various reasons... it's all part of the big picture.

[Spence]

That counter doesn't look like it's even connected.

Your Schatten winder is very smooth running, very squared up. The fender winders were prone to wobbles and vibrations and if you fail to drill the mounting holes precisely perpendicular to the flatwork the bobbin will wobble all over the place. It does make a difference. You should maybe try it. It's just another variable in the equation.

[David Schwab]

That counter doesn't look like it's even connected.

Your Schatten winder is very smooth running, very squared up. The fender winders were prone to wobbles and vibrations and if you fail to drill the mounting holes precisely perpendicular to the flatwork the bobbin will wobble all over the place. It does make a difference. You should maybe try it. It's just another variable in the equation.

On the Fender winder there was a screw for centering the bobbin on the platen. The Schatten has no such centering mechanism, so you have to eyeball how your bobbin is mounted, and I can assure you, it's never square, and always wobbles.

The Fender flatwork was stamped out, both the outline and all the holes. They were always the same. The center hole is always in the center.

Do we know that the rubber band vibrated? No. I also doubt they used a rubber band. I'm sure the counter was hooked up originally... when it didn't have a rubber band on it! You can also see the nicely machined bearing holding the platen. I'm sure that didn't vibrate much. It looks very sturdy.

Leo Fender was a machinist by trade... he designed all the big machines he used. He wouldn't have used a rubber band. :)

My sewing machine winder used a rubber band.

[gilligan]

Just wondering if anyone knows where to find the pulleys, bearings, etc..., for building a winder?

[Joe Gwinn]

Just wondering if anyone knows where to find the pulleys, bearings, etc..., for building a winder?Try SDP/SI http://www.sdp-si.com and MSC http://www.msc-direct.com.

[David King]

For bearings you can try http://www.vxb.com/ If you go with a common size like 806 they are unbelievably inexpensive like $.59 ea.

For shafting use drill rod, it's the cheapest precision ground material out there and it's easily drilled, filed, threaded etc.

I've also found a lot of useful parts at hobby shops that specialize in RC cars, boats and helicopters. Browse with an open mind and the ideas will just jump off the shelves at you. Prices are right too.