Come ON!!

[NightWinder]

Who's holding good screws! I'm almost out and need some.......This shit is stupid!!! Its a screw!! I'm so sick of this shit! I've got a few quotes from custom companys. Great materal too. Spent some $$$$ on other parts, so I will have to WAIT to order 20,000 for my GOD DAMN SELF. but in the mean time, whos holding?

[SkinnyWire]

Try these guys:

http://www.ruklic.com/main.cfm

It's been awhile since my last order, but they've done good by me on 5-40 fillisters. Last time I ordered, they had a 2500 piece minimum which is pretty low, and a three week wait to have them cut/shipped which is reasonable and they were on time. If you want other threads, I'm sure they can do that too. I've never tried to get "custom" heads on the screws or anything fancy but the fillister heads fill up the GJ bucker bobbin holes very nicely - might be a skosh too big for some bobbins. You should be able to get out the door at the minimum level at 7 or 8 cents per screw which is including the shipping.

Good luck.

[NightWinder]

Can you pm me a pic? Im fussy as hell, and would literally smash my computer or something if anything was like the screws from Guitar Jones. They are good for some things.....but mostly not. The stuff I use the GJ in are High ohmers....think 20+k. Thanks for the hit....

[Possum]

Before you deal with Ruclic you might ask Wolfe why he quit using them. They were very bizarre with me when I asked for a 10,000 piece quote. I asked them if they could look at a vintage screw and tell me what alloy it was, also asked them about electrical iron. They refused to even look at the spec sheet for electrical iron, just a click away, then they said they didn't want to bid on my order at all! Very weird behaviour....

[SkinnyWire]

I've had no problem with them whatsoever. YMMV.

[JGundry]

If you are fussy the you may not like Ruklic. The samples I got from them have a little flat part on the head. And the slot in the head is not cut to an even depth along the length of the cut.

[NightWinder]

There are literally probably 1,000 companys,and these guys cant get it right. This cat want 1200.00 for 20,000. Last time I opted for 5,000......There gone now......Almost. Wolfe, are your screws in? Lots of bullshit unnessisary time for screws. These things should be everywhere. Maybe an Aviation company?

[SkinnyWire]

From left to right - Guitar Jones (metric), Ruklic (5-40), Andrew C . (5-40). The shiny spots on top of the Ruklic represent the aforementioned "flat spot". Since it's consistent from screw to screw, I don't have a problem with it, but ... The slot is even and fine and I throw out far fewer of these than the Guitar Jones screws due to "defects". I've never noticed the tool mark ring before, and it's certainly not very noticeable to the naked eye. The closeup camera shot and lighting account for the accentuation here. Even so, it's no big deal since it's consistent. The slots on these consistently subdivide the head down the center whereas you can see the Guitar Jones screw is offset - sometimes way offset and sometimes the slot seems gouged out on them. When I used them, I probably threw out one in every 10 or 15 - maybe more for these reasons.

Both the Ruklic and Andrew's screws are just fine depending on the application. The head on the Ruklic is larger in diameter and fills the bobbins holes more completely on certain bobbins and generally fills the holes in covers more completely. The quality of Andrew's screws is consistent too, though the smaller heads are better suited to his bobbins (which are also nice).

Again, YMMV but to me it seems like far too much worry over minutiae going on here. Out of a couple thousand pickups, I've never had a customer complain about a flat spot on a screw or anything of the sort - not even the cork-sniffers that insist on a lot of the other voodoo tweaks.


http://www.highorderpickups.com/HO_Page_Files/Bucker%20Screws%2002.jpg

http://www.highorderpickups.com/HO_Page_Files/Bucker%20Screws%2003.jpg

[Possum]

What alloys are these screws? I'm pretty sure GJ's are 1022 and the Ruclics too, but what about Andy's? Do they all sound consistently the same? StewMac screws are made of lower carbon than any I've tried and the tonal difference is real apparent.

[kevinT]

StewMac screws are made of lower carbon than any I've tried and the tonal difference is real apparent.

In a good way or bad way?...just curious.

[Possum]

Not good or bad, they cut the highs noticeably, good if you need that. Don't like metric screws though....

[WolfeMacleod]

Wolfe, are your screws in? Lots of bullshit unnessisary time for screws.

Not yet, but almopst. Ruklic sent me a new sample which I approved. It was a bit different than the scrws I had been getting from them, but in a good way. The heads are very nicely shaped, although they around about 2 thousandths smaller diameter than I would like, they're very well formed heads - almost Tom Holmes like.

[SkinnyWire]

Not yet, but almopst. Ruklic sent me a new sample which I approved. It was a bit different than the scrws I had been getting from them, but in a good way. The heads are very nicely shaped, although they around about 2 thousandths smaller diameter than I would like, they're very well formed heads - almost Tom Holmes like.



I'd be VERY interested in something "Tom Holmes" like, if you'd be willing to share ordering specs of do a group purchase.

[NightWinder]

ANdrews seems to be lower carbon. Look at the difference in color tone on the shaft. The GJ are good for what I do, which is 20k plus, and they seem to let the high end through more on the hight ohms. Different models get different screws. Different treads too. thicker can be good. And an unknown material manipulation to the naked eye. Thing is.....Way too much time is being wasted sourcing screws and Slugs. This is petty shit to me, and a real pain in the ass. This should be readily availiable. WE really need readily made screws and slugs all the time. This is not the way to do it! I always waste more money buying smaller lots at first to make sure things are right, then go back and get the load. If anyone is interested......I also have some sweet allen head 5-40's. Lower cabon ofcoarse. They are great for THAT design. By the way.....I was considering Andrews Items for a few new Designs. I have not personally delt with him. Can anyone elaborate on his material and such. And also comment on the shipping. I curious as to how long shipping takes to get through customs and how much extra it costs. Can't wait to hear from Doctor X and see some material from him as well. You know, the Humbucker was Born and bread here in the states.......Its time to take is back. I hear alot of what others out of country are doing, how great their products are, have we lost our grip boys? The time is hear the time is now! This is our ground!!!......and even have rewinds comming in more than ever from overseas. Let's get this stuff together and do this. No more headaches!!!!!

[JGundry]

I'm in Grand Rapids MI. There are quite a few office furniture manufactures headquartered in the area, Herman Miller, Steelcase.. I wouldn't be surprised if Gibson got the original screws from Grand Rapids to begin with due to the furniture industry here. I have been calling around to fabricators that supply furniture makers. I found a CNC shop that also fabricates screws with an old screw making machine. I have not gotten a quote yet but they said they could match any slug or screw sample I gave them and make it on sight and then send it to be nickel plated. If the price is reasonable I think dealing in person with the screw maker would be a real advantage in getting a good finished product. I'm waiting on some PAF fillister screws to give them as a sample for a quote but if anyone has detailed spec. drawings with head dimensions and crown radius let me know and I will bring them along when I meet with them.

[SkinnyWire]

Here are the dimensional specs. Something of higher quality would always be welcome.

http://www.highorderpickups.com/HO_Page_Files/Fillister%20Screw%20Dimensions

[Joe Gwinn]

Here are the dimensional specs. Something of higher quality would always be welcome.What was the original source of the table on fillister-head screw dimensions? It looks like it ultimately came from ANSI B18.6.

Although not covered in the ANSI spec, we probably also want to specify the crown radius and center location, and the maximum taper on the sides. The tolerance on the A diameter allows for considerable taper.

The control drawing should specify that the dimensions are to be in accordance with ANSI B18.6 for a 5-40 slotted Fillister screw, with the following exceptions: <list, including max taper, crown details, and slot details>. The drawing also needs to say that visual appearance of the head is important. I think we also needed sharp (cut, not rolled) threads, to better grip plastic bobbins.

[SkinnyWire]

It looks like it ultimately came from ANSI B18.6.

That is correct. I agree, even armed with these one might want to make certain stipulations.

[Joe Gwinn]

That is correct. I agree, even armed with these one might want to make certain stipulations.Let us start to collect the requirements. I'll write a draft control drawing, and put it up on my website for all.

[NightWinder]

A little off topic, but Joe....I really think you inherited your grandfaters brain. I was blown away that Schwab dug up that photo. Whats even more interesting, is how perfect and clear the photo is. I read all your posts BTW.

[Possum]

hmmm, requirements for pole screws, now thats going to open up a can of worms. Every small measurement is going to be a personal preference and affect the final tonality the screw produces along with the rest of the pickup. There really isn't one ideal screw specification. Are you shooting for PAF screws, or more modern type specs? Thread cutting? Alloy? Extra deep head? One's pole screws can easily become one's own ally in producing your own signature tones. Even Guitar Jones's screws have their uses. On my own screws I stayed a little under PAF head diameter forseeing some problems with them fitting in the covers and bobbins I use, and sure enough this was a good call, bobbin with new screws inserted have to be pushed fairly hard to pop them into the covers, a couple thousandths more and it might have been a disaster. After all just about every pickup bobbin and cover part most of us have access to are cut for metric size screws. If anyone is interested I can scan and post a fillister screw head spec sheet from 1962 here on the forum, its American Standard B18.6.3

[Joe Gwinn]

hmmm, requirements for pole screws, now thats going to open up a can of worms. Every small measurement is going to be a personal preference and affect the final tonality the screw produces along with the rest of the pickup. There really isn't one ideal screw specification. Are you shooting for PAF screws, or more modern type specs? Thread cutting? Alloy? Extra deep head? Yes, all true, but still there does seem to be a great deal of commonality. And supply problems. With a couple of base standards, people would have a fallback, even if specfial variations are used. And, one can always take the standard spec and attach a list of exceptions, so only the stuff one cares about varies.

One's pole screws can easily become one's own ally in producing your own signature tones. Even Guitar Jones's screws have their uses. Yep, but not everybody wants to do this.

On my own screws I stayed a little under PAF head diameter forseeing some problems with them fitting in the covers and bobbins I use, and sure enough this was a good call, bobbin with new screws inserted have to be pushed fairly hard to pop them into the covers, a couple thousandths more and it might have been a disaster. After all just about every pickup bobbin and cover part most of us have access to are cut for metric size screws. I'd bet that the covers and bobbins are really all metric now, even if they claim imperial dimensions. Could you mike a few of the holes?

If anyone is interested I can scan and post a fillister screw head spec sheet from 1962 here on the forum, its American Standard B18.6.3That's obsolete, as it was revised in 1972 and 1991 (as cited in the 27th edition of Machinery's Handbook, copyright 2004), and probably again after 2000 (~10 year interval). Probably there are screw vendors that have the current spec on their websites.

[Joe Gwinn]

A little off topic, but Joe....I really think you inherited your grandfathers brain. It's worse than that. Both grandfathers and my father are engineers. What hope was there for me?

I was blown away that Schwab dug up that photo. Whats even more interesting, is how perfect and clear the photo is. I read all your posts BTW.I didn't realize they were up on the web. Those were the advertising photos, taken by a professional photographer with a big plate camera, probably 8x10. You can probably see the scratches on the metal if you inspect the negative with a magnifier. (No, I don't have the negatives.)

Thanks; I've evaded the killfile yet another day.

[Crumbhorn]

hmmm, requirements for pole screws, now thats going to open up a can of worms. Every small measurement is going to be a personal preference and affect the final tonality the screw produces along with the rest of the pickup. There really isn't one ideal screw specification. Are you shooting for PAF screws, or more modern type specs? Thread cutting? Alloy? Extra deep head? One's pole screws can easily become one's own ally in producing your own signature tones. Even Guitar Jones's screws have their uses. On my own screws I stayed a little under PAF head diameter forseeing some problems with them fitting in the covers and bobbins I use, and sure enough this was a good call, bobbin with new screws inserted have to be pushed fairly hard to pop them into the covers, a couple thousandths more and it might have been a disaster. After all just about every pickup bobbin and cover part most of us have access to are cut for metric size screws. If anyone is interested I can scan and post a fillister screw head spec sheet from 1962 here on the forum, its American Standard B18.6.3

I'd be interested in seeing that specification. Over here in England we are governed by DIN and ISO standards, our nearest equivalent to the fillister head screw is described as the "Cheese Head" which does look cheesy in a pickup.

Anyhow, I have to put a taper reamer throught the holes of every pickup cover to get a fit on 5/40 screw heads - bobbins I have to ream out to 3mm before winding the screws in.

Anyway, in the course of my own humble experience I have found that screws with rolled threads, therefore hard shell, soft core, sound bright. Screws with threads that have been cut have that edge missing-but having said that, work fine in a pickup.

For what it's worth. When I first started out, the rage was for Phat Cats. Reading the market totally incorrectly, I wondered who in hell would stick something that looks like that into a nice looking Les Paul? So I made and sold a few P90's in a Humbucker case that really looked like a Humbucker, but using hardened steel pins under the hood as pole pieces and chopped down Fillisters as dummy pole screws protruding through the cover. These things sound great ( half a dozen currently submerged in spiders webs in my workshop). I found that I could whack the windings on using 44 gage wire and still get some cutting edge. So for what it's worth, soft Iron isn't the end of the story.

But for the mainstream, constants are required and I totally agree we should have a basic, well defined component as a platform for building a pickup. My personal preference is a roll formed screw - thread tolerances are tighter, gives me some edge to the sound and they don't come out bent.

[NightWinder]

Are there any screw companys over there producing quality, that are readily availiable on the web, or is it considered a custom order.

[David Schwab]

I was blown away that Schwab dug up that photo.

I spend way too much time online! :o When I'm not real busy at my day job, I'm reading about 8 web sites at once... damn tabbed browsing... there went my attention span!

I was actually surprise how many pictures I found of it, if only because I never heard of it, and I love reading about that stuff!

Googling "Joe Gwinn" in general turns up a LOT of hits... is that all you Joe? Lots of math and computer related stuff. :)

[Joe Gwinn]

Googling "Joe Gwinn" in general turns up a LOT of hits... is that all you Joe? Lots of math and computer related stuff. :)Well, I googled myself, and everything on the first three screens is in fact me.

There is also a town in Michigan called "Gwinn". I have no idea what the history is, and there is no relevant family lore on it either.

[David Schwab]

Well, I googled myself, and everything on the first three screens is in fact me.

There is also a town in Michigan called "Gwinn". I have no idea what the history is, and there is no relevant family lore on it either.

Ah, so you are with Raytheon? I always loved that name... light of the gods!

I come up twice on the first Google page, along with a dentist, an oceanographer, and a politician. I always found that odd since it's not a very common name.

The dentist required me to hyphenate my domain. Dammit! :D

[Crumbhorn]

Are there any screw companys over there producing quality, that are readily availiable on the web, or is it considered a custom order.

There isn't much left of the fastener industry left over here. Screws such as these that don't conform British, ISO or DIN standards are either imported or manufactured by suppliers geared up for the aerospace/automotive supply chain. I was quoted 30c. each based upon a 5,000 batch.

[Tonerider]

Hi,

You cant tell the carbon content via that picture as our screws are nickel plated. Comparing Gauss levels at the screw head with a Bell Gaussmeter I get the same reading on our screws as on the Gibson screws that came with my historic Les Paul - so I think we are very close to the PAF steel.

Andrew C.

[Possum]

Uh you missed the point there Joe, when duplicating screws from 1959 having a 1962 spec sheet is quite valuable. Actually it looks like most of the specs are the same anyway as the chart posted here.

I'm not real sure measuring guass will tell much about carbon content, I may be wrong, I'll have to do a little test tonite on 3 different grades of carbon if I have any damn time, and see what happens. More later on that.....

[Possum]

Also forgot to mention that having one's own designed screws IS an important thing, I'm sure Tom Holmes would take objection to anyone copying his screws that he personally makes I'm told. When I had my scews made I sent 3 different samples of different vintage screws, everyone of them radically different from the same ol' humbuckers. I pointed out I want this one thing from one set and this from a different set etc. etc. and came up with my own preferred spec screw. The sonic differences between different screws I'm discovering are thing that don't obviously show up on the Extech either. Head size is real important in that regard and easy to hear the difference between a metric small head screw and a bigger vintage type screw. There isn't much of a measurable difference between 1018 and 1022 alloys on the Extech but it is noticeable with ears. Wish I had more sophisticated test gear....

[Joe Gwinn]

Uh you missed the point there Joe, when duplicating screws from 1959 having a 1962 spec sheet is quite valuable. Actually it looks like most of the specs are the same anyway as the chart posted here.I don't think that the dimensions of slotted screws changed. What changed was the addition of philips heads. But screwmakers will cling to the current specs, so we will need to cite (and perhaps take explicit exception to) the current versions of the specs.

I'm not real sure measuring guass will tell much about carbon content, I may be wrong, I'll have to do a little test tonite on 3 different grades of carbon if I have any damn time, and see what happens. More later on that.....Gauss tells you almost nothing about carbon content. There is no good way to tell 1015 from 1025 mild steel using home tools. Electrical iron can be suspected if the steel is very soft, such that screw slots instantly mangle when the screw is driven, but this is still pretty subjective.

One can tell carbon ranges apart by heating the piece to a red heat and dropping it into cold water:

No hardening effect (files very easily): mild steel, ~1018

Some hardening effect (can be filed, but it's noticeably tougher stuff): tough carbon steel. ~1040

Glass-hard (a file skates, and will be ruined if you try too hard): high-carbon tool steel: ~1090 (or up to 1.5% carbon)


So, if it's necessary to tell mild steel alloys apart, ask a steel distributor to use their instruments to make the determination.

[kevinT]

Let us start to collect the requirements. I'll write a draft control drawing, and put it up on my website for all.

The fastener company that i'm using is providing/creating a draft control drawing of my screw for a $25 fee. I am signing off on it before they begin work.

Folks that are getting screws custom made should ask their fastener company if they can create a drawing if they can't provide an actual sample screw. Its cheaper that way....control drawings from private drafting companies can range from $200 to $300 from my inquiries.

After what Wolfe and Dave went through with their screws and also taking into consideration Joe's advice, the extra $25 is well worth it. ;)

[SkinnyWire]

The fastener company that i'm using is providing/creating a draft control drawing of my screw for a $25 fee. I am signing off on it before they begin work.

Folks that are getting screws custom made should ask their fastener company if they can create a drawing if they can't provide an actual sample screw. Its cheaper that way....control drawings from private drafting companies can range from $200 to $300 from my inquiries.

After what Wolfe and Dave went through with their screws and also taking into consideration Joe's advice, the extra $25 is well worth it. ;)

Who are they?

[kevinT]

Who are they?

The company is North East Fasteners Corp. out of CT. www.nef1.com

I submitted a sample to them and the engineer was able to break down all the characteristics of the screw to give me the specs including the type of steel. He was even able to determine whether it was heat treated.

I have never used them or seen their work yet, so i can't vouch for them at this time. However, I'm going to take a chance and have 25K made. They have a minimum of 15K and their lead time is 8 to 10 weeks.

They're creating a drawing from the sample screw that I submitted for a fee of $25. They will have the drawing and sample present when they do the run so they can check it to ensure that it is what exactly what is specified in the drawing.

My sales person is Lisa Gagnon who has been very helpful.

I will let you know how they turn out when I get them in April or May.

[Possum]

what sample did you submit and what alloy are you going to use?

The screw company Joe recommended used a microscope to analyze the steel samples I sent, these guys have been around so I trust their analysis.

They also told me they can't get electrical iron stock suitable for screw making, so I think this idea that Seth Lover's PAFs used electrical iron is bunk. Seth said soft iron, but what was he talking about, the prototype or the production pieces? He also said alot in what I've read from him that he just used what Gibson had in their stock rooms, I don't really think alot of what he spouted off about had a hard basis in fact, getting vintage samples analyzed is way more important than an interview with a 70+ year old guy's memory :-)

[Joe Gwinn]

The fastener company that i'm using is providing/creating a draft control drawing of my screw for a $25 fee. I am signing off on it before they begin work.That's hard to beat. And I bet the screw company is happy, because good fences make for good neighbors.

Will you be posting the control drawing? A wide review may help.

Folks that are getting screws custom made should ask their fastener company if they can create a drawing if they can't provide an actual sample screw. Its cheaper that way....control drawings from private drafting companies can range from $200 to $300 from my inquiries.Sounds about right. It ends up being real work.

After what Wolfe and Dave went through with their screws and also taking into consideration Joe's advice, the extra $25 is well worth it. ;)For sure.

[NightWinder]

I second that. There is a noticeable difference you can hear (most important), and cosmeticly....theres nothing like a really nice screw to ice the cake.

[NightWinder]

A quick thought: Maybe......you should copy Wolfe's pictures, and send them to the company titled "Things I won't except". He clearly got bent over. Maybe this is too shrude? But it can be a valuable tool when they consider the job, and your expectations. Them knowing your going to be a stickler for quality may help you get some really nice screws. Just a thought. Let us know how they work out. Guys like myself don't mind having 1,000 different screws on hand for R&D. Grab the weapons wisely befor going to the battlefield.

[SkinnyWire]

The company is North East Fasteners Corp. out of CT. www.nef1.com

I submitted a sample to them and the engineer was able to break down all the characteristics of the screw to give me the specs including the type of steel. He was even able to determine whether it was heat treated.

I have never used them or seen their work yet, so i can't vouch for them at this time. However, I'm going to take a chance and have 25K made. They have a minimum of 15K and their lead time is 8 to 10 weeks.

They're creating a drawing from the sample screw that I submitted for a fee of $25. They will have the drawing and sample present when they do the run so they can check it to ensure that it is what exactly what is specified in the drawing.

My sales person is Lisa Gagnon who has been very helpful.

I will let you know how they turn out when I get them in April or May.

Sounds very promising. Sometimes one has to take on a bit of risk like this. I'm anxious to hear/see how it works out for you.

[kevinT]

what sample did you submit and what alloy are you going to use?

I submitted a sample that is used by another pickup maker which I won't name (it's not Holmes). I didn't use a vintage screw. It is 1022 steel. It is metric with a thread cutting capability. I know it isn't vintage correct (especially for PAF sticklers) but i think it is an improvement to that aspect of pickup design (at least mine). It will also aid in the effeciency of the production process....I've determined through a lot of testing.

The screw company Joe recommended used a microscope to analyze the steel samples I sent, these guys have been around so I trust their analysis.

I believe the engineer did something similar. I know he cut open the screw and also did something that took a couple of days to determine the plating (i want to say they soaked the screw in a bath of chemicals or they used some kind of electrolysis process based on some of the things the sales person told me...but don't hold me to it...I don't know)

[kevinT]

I forgot to mentioned I purchased some screws from Ruklic to keep me going until the ones i ordered arrive.

The fillisters that they sent me have flat tops. They had these in stock so i ordered some and didn't have to wait. I don't really care for them, however, they are ok for R & D purposes. They are 1022 BTW.

I'll upload an image of the screw later today.

[Possum]

I reread my emails from my supplier, he did make the comment that "soft iron" was probably 1018 back in the 50s, but all the samples I sent he said looked like 1022. The 1018 I got is noticeably softer and even the cut on them isn't as sharp and precise as the 1022 screws. The softer stuff works real nice in bridge pickups.