double Cream 59 paf

[NightWinder]

I recently got my hands on a 59 original. This thing sounds awsome. The customer recently bought 3 pickups from the store I supply, and asked me to make this.......What a treat. Ofcoarse he wants it in double cream. HE also mentioned that my Paf was the best he had ever heard from a remake standpoint, and he has tryed some serious builders stuff. I was floored. Honored. I just could'nt believe he let me have this for research. I don't know him from adam, but he is a nice guy, and a vintage purist. Whatever means, he made some nice comments. I'd imagine he will be selling it in a few weeks on ebay.......

[markeymark]

Thats a great complement about your pickups.
Congratulations.


Post some soundclips of that PAF if you get the chance. I'd love to hear it.


Peace

[Mystic]

Take lots of measurements and pictures.

Oh, and then post them here......:)

[NightWinder]

Well....I was completely flatterd. I am not a vintage guy by any means. I like high ohms 16k+. I make them though,( you have too) and I really needed a comparision from a vintage guy. Thanks for the congrads. Hey Mystic...Don't you find it strange that everyone here claims PAF this that, but you have Never seen anyone here make solid conclusions regarding researched specs, ohms, layer counts, gause levels from any Paf? I wonder why that is? I thought this was a place to share......I really wonder why there has'nt been more on this. I'm taking picks specs, and everything. I will not however post until there is a worthy discussion on the topic, and there may very well be a few snickerings and such. Thats ok. Well see who chimes in.
Ps. I'll not toot my own horn about my customers comments. I was overexcited and very pleased.

[madialex]

Hi Nightwinder, I would post specs on a real PAF if I had them but no such luck here. I have read every post I can find on them and you are right, I know about what mags they used, maple spacers, offsets up to 1K sometimes more etc...... but not 1 mention of TPL. I did a what the hell wind the other day just messing around and employing some of what Seth said in his interveiw like winding the bobbins till full. So I wound like I thought a woman would do by hand. I would think they wouldn't use too much tension due to being afraid of breaking the wire, throw in a few talker distractions and I came up with a scary close PAF tone to the real thing, the coils were only about .27 offset with the slug being the hotter side, maple spacer, yes spacer not spacers as in 1. the other side gets the barstock and run the braided wire along the edge where the other spacer goes and solder to the base plate. I found doing that makes a world of diff in the tone. Actually with a disto pedal it gets very gainy, but run it through a straight tube amp on about 5 to 6 and it gets that PAF type almost breaking up almost good feedback, like it gets ready to go into feedback but just drops of slowly with good sustain, push it up to about 8 and controlled feedback all over the board. I was pretty impressed myself. Naturally I went in search of PAF and others sound clips and found a set at the LPF, 1 was a real PAF, 2 was Lindy's PAF and the 3rd was Wolfes Dr vintage. Mine was somewhere between the real PAF and Wolfes, a tad brighter than wolfes and a tad less honk that the PAF. SO there you have it. Now anyone with those dam PAF specs if you would please just give us a little something to chew on please:D :rolleyes:

[Mystic]

This was posted on another board some time ago..

"The time has come to let this one go. Ive had it 6 or 7 years. Ive had close to two dozen PAFs in that time, and this one is still the best sounding bridge pickup of all them. Unpaid bills and a recent old Marshall craze dictates that its finally time for this one to go. This is the pickup that Tim White and Jim Rolph have based their 'Ed A' winds on. This is the pickup that resided in my '99 #125 Murphy and every other LP, (reissue and vintage) Ive had since then. Its the pickup on many of those soundfiles I did a few years ago. I believe that part of the magic of original PAFs are the varying coil readings. This one is about 4.4 on the inside coil and 4.0 on the screw coil, for a total close to 8.4k. Ive always felt that the inside coil being a bit hotter is why this PAF has such honking harmonic mids. Who knows...

Im hearing that some double-whites have sold for 5k or more. I will run this ad for a week a so and will take the best offer I get over $4500. Otherwise, its not worth it for me to sell it...


Thanks.
-Ed
"

[Possum]

The problem with PAFs is they weren't consistently one thing or the other. Some of them sucked shit. Its too bad you don't have an Extech LCR meter and know how to use it, you would learn some things about it no other way will tell you. You won't be able to tell much without destroying its value unfortunately, just removing any tape and putting it back will drop its value and will be obvious to anyone who knows what they are looking at. Gauss readings aren't real useful with humbuckers, there is so much metal soaking up the magnetism that A2, A3 and A5 will sometimes read nearly the same, plus you won't know how much its been degaussed over the years. Gauss readings will never tell you what alnico a magnet is anyway, it just doesn't work that way. I doubt you can even get into the seperate coils to measure each one because its taped over and you'd have to pull the joined wires out between the coils, this is too much messing with a valuable pickup and if spotted could kill a sale. Ohms won't tell you anything much, there are things going on in PAFs that have to do with the insulation and wire size and you can't get to that either. The wire they used varied at last 3 times that I know of. Bummer, huh? Best thing to do is try to find one thats dead and fix it for free or something then the guts will be there for you to analyze if you know what you're looking at.

Some of you guys want this stuff handed to you for nothing, why don't you use your brains and do some digging, there's alot about PAFs thats out there in obscure books, Gibson history books etc. the more experienced and knowledgeable you are the more you can spot the clues. I have tons of books on guitar history, alot out of print, valuable info in all of them. If you don't do the work you'll never appreciate what makes a good PAF sound great. Listen to Duane Allman, find anything you can where he's playing relatively clean, that set is legendary to my ears. A good PAF has this magical kind of "bloom" thing going on with it, you hit chords or double stops and the sound blooms, hard to describe but very noticeable. A good PAF has a special kind of tonal dynamic to it, you play loud it blooms and sings, if you play soft wihtout turning it down there's a magical thing that happens with that. I've been obsessed with PAFs for 5 years now and have scrounged every bit of information I can from very diverse places, I have a big archive of Ebay photos of PAFs up close. I've never had a real one in my hands to study, but that will happen, still there's not much I don't know about them at this point except for definite slug dimensions and one collector I correspond with tells me they varied alot. PAF bridge pickups can be shrill, go to YouTube and watch Duane at the Fillmore switch to his bridge pickup and listen to it screech in not such a nice way. I continue to refine my own PAFs and am really happy with where they are now. Here's a sound clip in my LP copy plugged straight into a '73 Fender Vibrolux cranked up, you can hear the bloom factor right from the start.
http://www.sdpickups.com/audio/tone%20king%20dirty.mp3
Here's a clip from a customer playing through a Marshall (somewhat badly, oh well) doing the Duane thing:
http://www.sdpickups.com/audio/tonekinglive.mp3

One thing thats really starting to annoy me, I have a saved search on Ebay for PAFs and just the last couple months there are now about 8 guys I never heard of all selling PAFs and claiming they have been making pickups for years and alot of blab about mismatched coils etc. Some of these things look really shoddily put together, tape not even finished off with the ends hanging out etc. Its like no one out there is going to know what the hell a PAF is anymore, that label is on so much crap out there its starting to make PAF sound like a cheap name for generic humbuckers.

If you want to make great PAFs you have to work for it, that knowledge is worth money and no one is going to post trade secrets on a public forum for sure :-)

[Spence]

Well....I was completely flatterd. I am not a vintage guy by any means. I like high ohms 16k+. I make them though,( you have too) and I really needed a comparision from a vintage guy. Thanks for the congrads. Hey Mystic...Don't you find it strange that everyone here claims PAF this that, but you have Never seen anyone here make solid conclusions regarding researched specs, ohms, layer counts, gause levels from any Paf? I wonder why that is? I thought this was a place to share......I really wonder why there has'nt been more on this. I'm taking picks specs, and everything. I will not however post until there is a worthy discussion on the topic, and there may very well be a few snickerings and such. Thats ok. Well see who chimes in.
Ps. I'll not toot my own horn about my customers comments. I was overexcited and very pleased.

This is a place to share however......

So many people claim to have researched everything there is to know about PAFs that the picture has become clouded. People like myself and dave Stephens will happily pick a PAF apart and do. Whenever I have posted stuff on here about my findings other people dispute it. I've done the science and I've broadcast it here then a whole batallion of people turn up and talk bollocks about PAFs. But one thing is for sure,no two PAFs are the same. The PAF sound I personally like the most may not be your favourite. It doesn't mean I'm wrong.

In any case, you will now have the privilege to do your own hands-on reasearch and draw your own conclusions. Maybe, just maybe you will not like it. Maybe you'll post your findings on here and a whole host of people will ignore or rubbish your findings.

Some people just never want to know the truth because they either want to continue the myth or because they don't actually make pickups even though they'd like you to think they've been doing it for years. Then you get the ones who know someone who was there when Seth Lover had his brainwave blah, blah, blah.....

[Mystic]

This is a place to share however......

So many people claim to have researched everything there is to know about PAFs that the picture has become clouded. People like myself and dave Stephens will happily pick a PAF apart and do. Whenever I have posted stuff on here about my findings other people dispute it. I've done the science and I've broadcast it here then a whole batallion of people turn up and talk bollocks about PAFs. But one thing is for sure,no two PAFs are the same. The PAF sound I personally like the most may not be your favourite. It doesn't mean I'm wrong.

In any case, you will now have the privilege to do your own hands-on reasearch and draw your own conclusions. Maybe, just maybe you will not like it. Maybe you'll post your findings on here and a whole host of people will ignore or rubbish your findings.

Some people just never want to know the truth because they either want to continue the myth or because they don't actually make pickups even though they'd like you to think they've been doing it for years. Then you get the ones who know someone who was there when Seth Lover had his brainwave blah, blah, blah.....
I agree with this post. :)

[NightWinder]

Ahhh Spence.....you impress the fuck out of me!!I may have to travel around the world to meet you!

[Spence]

No problem. Anytime.

[NightWinder]

Slug read out at 4.46k Screw read out 4.25k. Gau. read out 25k .Unpotted. basically 8.71k. What a fucking joke. Needless to say, I replicated it, and it totally smoked! Some secret hun? There you go.

[erikbojerik]

Gau. read out 25k

Huh? What does that mean exactly? Forgive me for being slow to pick up on the jargon.

What kind of magnets did they put in PAFs? Did yours still have most of their charge, do you suppose?

[Possum]

Gauss 25K? Are you using one of those spring meters? They are horribly useless. How many turns per layer are the coils?, What is the magnet wire diameter? Slug diameter and depth, coil height of the bobbin? There's alot of missing info there. Guass should be read on the edges of the magnet not the poles, long magnet or short? did you take pictures? Sound clips?

[Ruel]

Well....I was completely flatterd. I am not a vintage guy by any means. I like high ohms 16k+. I make them though,( you have too) and I really needed a comparision from a vintage guy. Thanks for the congrads. Hey Mystic...Don't you find it strange that everyone here claims PAF this that, but you have Never seen anyone here make solid conclusions regarding researched specs, ohms, layer counts, gause levels from any Paf? I wonder why that is? I thought this was a place to share......I really wonder why there has'nt been more on this. I'm taking picks specs, and everything. I will not however post until there is a worthy discussion on the topic, and there may very well be a few snickerings and such. Thats ok. Well see who chimes in.
Ps. I'll not toot my own horn about my customers comments. I was overexcited and very pleased.

You've got all the reason in the world to get excited and pleased everytime you get complimented by your customers. I am new at this stuff and am not yet really in it for the money (not yet, anyway) but I managed to satisfy a paying customer. It was indeed a thrill to receive an enthusiastic thank you SMS at 4:00 in the morning, saying that I exceeded his expectations.

I for one always looks forward to getting infos from you guys. You are the more knowledgeable people on the subject of pickup making. So any info from you is fully appreciated.

[NightWinder]

The pickup was first sent to Seymour,(by the customer) and the measurements were as stated. I just verified the coil readings. I would'nt want to do anything else......He plans on selling it. The magnet was very strong still, and A2 and of longer length. I have'nt seen any Dc postings since this thread. That said, is'nt the end piece.

[erikbojerik]

25,000 G on the magnets?!?! I don't think so. It'd be pulling the bolts out of my neck....

[NightWinder]

25k.....is what seymour wrote on the paper? My guess is he is using a different method.to measure I'm sure its not 25,000 G, you know this! I'm not sure what methods he is using. Thats what the sheet said. 25k. LOL 25,000 gause....shit

[mick]

Seymour uses one of the little R B ANNIS gauges to measure , they are marked 50-25-0-25-50 , and lines in between for other numbers . I would assume this is where the "25" comes from.

Mick

[NightWinder]

Im not familiar with that, so does that mean its half charged? The magnet was strong.....A2. More mysterys for the puzzle hun.

[mick]

Not sure? depends what fully charged is I suppose...I do know that although seymour uses A2 ( supposidly ) in the antiquities , despite having similar ( aright the same ) readings as my mags according to my AB Annis , his were heaps stronger in a pull test . degaussed A5 maybe?

Mick

[NightWinder]

Not sure? depends what fully charged is I suppose...I do know that although seymour uses A2 ( supposidly ) in the antiquities , despite having similar ( aright the same ) readings as my mags according to my AB Annis , his were heaps stronger in a pull test . degaussed A5 maybe?

Mick HUm.....well he is seymour duncan:cool:

[Possum]

He uses that spring meter the Annis thingy, it doesn't actually measure gauss, I don't know what it measures but its not gauss. 50 gauss would fall off your refrigerator door :-) A2s fully charged can be like 650 gauss roughly. Just because he's Seymour doesnt mean he's kept up with modern technology, the fact he still uses one of those spring meters is a bad sign :-) You sure as shit can't tell alnico by using one of those things. The only sure fire way is to have the metal analyzed. Even with the Extech meter and a coil you can't tell the difference between alnico 3 and alnico 2, they give readings that are just too close to be a dead on indicator. In that cofee table book the Black Guard tele they used one of those spring meters to determine what alnico the early Broadcaster/Nocaster pickups were which is real annoying because the data gathered is totally useless. I contacted the author and told him I have a Nocaster bridge pickup sitting here that damn sure is alnico 5 because it reads around 1000 gauss, and alnico 3 just can't reach that level. I even made a copy of it in alncio 3 and no way it would reach that high. He told me no its alnico 3, I think I finally convinced him that he was wrong and was exposed to bad methodology. Some of those pickups WERE alnico 3 but some of them definitely were not. Modern tools do have their value, I'm a big believer in that as I've learned alot from the meters and tools I have that old school thinking just didn't have a clue about.......

[David Schwab]

I was looking at the R. B. Annis magnetometer one day. They do read gauss, but the scale on the meter is relative... you can get them in 8 different ranges from a half gauss to 100 gauss scale.

So I guess if you had a 100 gauss meter, +50, or -50 would be 100 gauss in either polarity.

Seems like a confusing device! And how do you use a 100 gauss meter on magnets more than 100 gauss?

They do come calibrated and certified, and they claim that they are so sensitive that they will read the magnetic field of the Earth.

[NightWinder]

Notice I did'nt capitolize his name? (s.d). As stated in the first post, Im not a vintage kinda guy, Possum knows I play with Fire. I will say, The Ohm readings fluctuate sooo much between pafs. That to me is really odd in itsself, as a simple task, it surely was overlooked and disregarded too often.

[David Schwab]

As stated in the first post, Im not a vintage kinda guy, Possum knows I play with Fire. I will say, The Ohm readings fluctuate sooo much between pafs. That to me is really odd in itsself, as a simple task, it surely was overlooked and disregarded too often.

That's a good point, and when I see people making "PAF" pickups that are supposed to sound "authentic" I have to ask what pickup is it gauged off of?

And what exactly does a PAF sounds like? And does it even have a sound any different from a T-top or Shaw? I had a set of early patent decal humbuckers, and I can't say they sounded any different from the DiMarzio PAF's the guy replaced them with. Actually the DiMarzios sounded better. :eek:

I think it's all folklore! The PAF has become some mystical beast... The best anyone can do is make an early Gibson styled pickup... it will sound about as good as they did. If it can be done more consistently, that's even better! :)

I'm not a vintage guy either. I'm always amused that in the 70's people were swapping out their Fender bass pickups for DiMarzios left and right, because the replacement pickups sounded better. Now people think the Fender pickups are "vintage". If I never see another Jazz Bass and SVT again it wont be soon enough! :p

[erikbojerik]

I think it's all folklore! The PAF has become some mystical beast...

Nah...you just forgot to pot the pickup in mojo. ;)

[Stan H]

Keep in mind that Duane Allman, Billy Gibbons and Eddie Van Halen could've made any pickup sound good. It's just by happenstance that they all played PAFs...which I'm sure didn't hurt the lore at all.

Stan

[NightWinder]

Mojo....Good one! I think this thread is Mojo........Whatever means, Its all good. The final test is the Ears! Thats bottom line. Folklore if you will!!

[Possum]

EVERY magnet is over 100 gauss!!!! Those Annis things are useless , totally and completely useless. Amen. If I remember right they use a spacer arm so that they only measure gauss far enough away to hit in those low readings, so you're not even actually directly measuring whats coming from the magnet.

PAF tone, to me I always identify what I based mine on, Duane Allman, Duane Duane, Jimmy, Clapton Bluesbreakers. All very similar, its so now I hear something on the radio and my ears wake me up if I hear that tone, its identifiable, I don't know anyone who has nailed it 100%. I've probably got it 90-95% in what I did and I'm not telling how :-) Its super important to identify every single component in those things, alloy, magnets, wire, every tiny thing, then you're on the right track. Alot of these ebay winders think all you do is mismatch the coils and you got a PAF, yeah sure....

[kevinT]

I've probably got it 90-95% in what I did and I'm not telling how :-) Its super important to identify every single component in those things, alloy, magnets, wire, every tiny thing, then you're on the right track....

Dave

Your clips sound pretty damn good!!! IMHO you definetly got a genuine PAF tone going on.

Is that you playing in your sound clips? If it is, you got some nice chops too.

Totally cranking out the blues!!!

[J S Moore]

Keep in mind that Duane Allman, Billy Gibbons and Eddie Van Halen could've made any pickup sound good. It's just by happenstance that they all played PAFs...which I'm sure didn't hurt the lore at all.

Stan

Actually the majority of Les Paul players of the time talk of how they actually sought out those guitars because of the sound, which is a far cry from happenstance.

[David Schwab]

EVERY magnet is over 100 gauss!!!! Those Annis things are useless , totally and completely useless. Amen. If I remember right they use a spacer arm so that they only measure gauss far enough away to hit in those low readings, so you're not even actually directly measuring whats coming from the magnet.

Ha! I looked them up because I saw Seymour using one. They are a little too low tech for me... but then so is sticking my magnets on the front of my fridge! I'm going to have to get one of those new-fangled gauss meters one of these days. :D

PAF tone, to me I always identify what I based mine on, Duane Allman, Duane Duane, Jimmy, Clapton Bluesbreakers. All very similar, its so now I hear something on the radio and my ears wake me up if I hear that tone, its identifiable, I don't know anyone who has nailed it 100%.

Even Clapton with Cream... like on SWLABR. That's a great tone. They probably weren't using PAF's either, but that is the Gibson tone in my book. Boy I miss my Les Paul...

Reminds me of the time I replaced the stock pickups on a bolt on PRS for a customer with Duncan Alnico II's. It went from a totally toneless beast to an instant Mic Ronson tone. It just had that Gibsony vibe.


I've probably got it 90-95% in what I did and I'm not telling how :-) Its super important to identify every single component in those things, alloy, magnets, wire, every tiny thing, then you're on the right track.

Yeah, your clips sound great. :D

Alot of these ebay winders think all you do is mismatch the coils and you got a PAF, yeah sure....

Which is funny considering PAF's really didn't have mismatched coils... not by any significant amount anyway. Now all of a sudden that's a thing to do.

[Spence]

Right everyone, abandon that idea then. Mis-matched coils must be myth.
Meanwhile, I shall continue mis-matching mine because I know better.

[David Schwab]

Right everyone, abandon that idea then. Mis-matched coils must be myth.
Meanwhile, I shall continue mis-matching mine because I know better.

I didn't say don't mismatch coils, I just said mismatching coils because that's true to PAF spec is a fallacy. Gibson didn't intentionally mismatch coils. A lot of humbucking pickups even have both coils wound simultaneously (a Bill Lawrence innovation, TV Jones does it too).

So if someone is going to make a reproduction of a PAF pickup, and as I always say, "which PAF?", mismatching coils might reproduce one particular pickup. Get your hands on a dozen of them and they will all be different. Some might have mismatched coils. Most will be matched pretty close, because that was the intention. If you find a good sounding pickup, and can nail down all the minutiae, than that's a good thing.

But technically what are you doing by mismatching coils? Or even better, what is the disadvantage of matched coils? The two coils in a Gibson style humbucker, even with exact number of turns is already mismatched because of the difference in pole pieces. Therefore, are you mismatching to lessen the difference in induction, or are you mismatching to lessen the small wave length (high frequency) cancelation? Or, are you just trying to make each coil have a different voicing, like DiMarzio does?

So by saying you know better, who are you referring to? Gibson? Seth Lover? They didn't mismatch coils. If it works for your pickup design, that's cool. But there's more pickups out there with matched coils, because that's how humbuckers were designed to work.

:) (the smily face let's you know I'm not arguing with anyone... I'm asking questions)

[kevinT]

A lot of humbucking pickups even have both coils wound simultaneously (a Bill Lawrence innovation, TV Jones does it too).


To maximize effeciency/production of a specific pickup design, they could be winding multiple bobbins of the same type with the same formula (e.g., winding 2 slug bobbins with the same program/winding pattern at the same time). I hope that made sense :rolleyes:

For example, the tooling for my winder is set up to wind 3 of the same kind of bobbins simultaneously. I would wind 3 slug bobbins with a certain formula, and then i would switch my tooling and then load 3 polepiece bobbins into the tooling and wind 3 polepiece bobbins with a different formula.

Most likely because of the different size holes in the bobbins they may have two sets of tooling for each type of bobbin. This way, you can differ your formula on each bobbin using this method and increase production.... where as you would be limited to the same winding pattern on each of the bobbins of the same pickup...which is ok if that is what you wanted in your design.

I could be wrong (which is often the case :D) and they could wind the slug and screw bobbins simultaneously.

I only wind one bobbin of each type right now because demand doesn't warrant multiple winds. Hopefully one day, i can bump it up ;)

[David Schwab]

That makes perfect sense, and is the efficient way to do it. I just started doing CW/CCW coils, so I do all in one direction first.

In the case of Lawrence and Jones, they have symmetrical bobbins.
Lawrence's old dual blade humbuckers had matching bobbins of course, and TV Jones pickups have two screw coils.. no slugs.

Lawrence said he did it to perfectly match the both coils. This was to maximize noise cancelation.

You know there was an article once in Guitar Player, I think by Jeff "skunk" Baxter (of the Doobie Brother's) giving instructions on how to make your hunbuckers sound better. The idea was to find the coil with more windings, and unwind it to exactly match the DC resistance of the other (lesser) coil. This he said would make the pickups sound better, and he did this to all his guitars.

So tastes and trends change on things all the time. In his case better sounding might have been quieter.

I know Bartolini mismatches his coils to get more top end. Tuck Andress (Tuck & Patti) asked for a matched humbucker because it as quieter.

EMG either wind each coil differently, or unbalance them electronically. They discontinued the EMG-58 because it hummed a little. That was a nice sounding pickup.

[NightWinder]

I got that skunk baxter artical from a magazine.

[Spence]

That makes perfect sense, and is the efficient way to do it. I just started doing CW/CCW coils, so I do all in one direction first.

In the case of Lawrence and Jones, they have symmetrical bobbins.
Lawrence's old dual blade humbuckers had matching bobbins of course, and TV Jones pickups have two screw coils.. no slugs.

Lawrence said he did it to perfectly match the both coils. This was to maximize noise cancelation.

You know there was an article once in Guitar Player, I think by Jeff "skunk" Baxter (of the Doobie Brother's) giving instructions on how to make your hunbuckers sound better. The idea was to find the coil with more windings, and unwind it to exactly match the DC resistance of the other (lesser) coil. This he said would make the pickups sound better, and he did this to all his guitars.

So tastes and trends change on things all the time. In his case better sounding might have been quieter.

I know Bartolini mismatches his coils to get more top end. Tuck Andress (Tuck & Patti) asked for a matched humbucker because it as quieter.

EMG either wind each coil differently, or unbalance them electronically. They discontinued the EMG-58 because it hummed a little. That was a nice sounding pickup.

Look out, here come the noise Police again.

So did his humbuckers sound better? When you screw with things you're not accustomed to it can be hard to admit you made things worse.

In any case, you can have a whole 1 K difference between coils before the noise police rush in and start fisting you. Gibson's humbuckers were never wildy mismatched.

Now, having been a bass player for many years ( as well as a guitarist ), I'm happy to say that I've firmly left that world of sterility behind me. Most bass players I come accross never change their pickups or even consider it and they almost always have a mental blank when it comes a guitarist's quest for tonal nirvana. Different breed that's all.

[David Schwab]

Look out, here come the noise Police again.

Noise is not music. It doesn't make you sound or play better, unless someone has some illusions that they sound like their favorite old records with noisy pickups. I think by 2007 we should know how to make quiet pickups!

So did his humbuckers sound better? When you screw with things you're not accustomed to it can be hard to admit you made things worse.

Who's humbuckers? Bill Lawrence? I think Bill is more "accustomed" to designing pickups than anyone on this forum. His name appears on a whole bunch of Gibson patents. How many bass players love Thunderbird pickups? I have a pair of his old strat size humbuckers ... they sound great and don't hum! People seem to like his Fender SCN Noiseless pickups. His full size humbuckers are on the bright side, but that's the tone he's going for. Dimebag liked them.

Gibson's humbuckers were never wildy mismatched.

That's what I said. My point was that people make mismatched pickups and claim they are PAF's, but that was never a part of PAF pickups... not intentionally anyway.

Now, having been a bass player for many years ( as well as a guitarist ), I'm happy to say that I've firmly left that world of sterility behind me.

Which world is that? How do you have a sterile pickup? If you have a good sounding instrument, and the pickup reproduces the tone of that instrument, that's all you need. You can't listen to Stanley Clarke or Jeff Berlin and call that tone sterile!

I've been playing bass 39 years, and guitar a little longer. I already know what tone I'm looking for on bass, and I haven't found it in stock pickups so far.

People seem to equate "clean" with sterile, yet a strat or tele pickup is about as clean as you can get. A lot of bass players these days think they are going for a "vintage" tone, which to them means distorted. Not too many bass players used a distorted tone intentionally back then (The great Jack Bruce and Tim Bogert notwithstanding), but we were stuck with sucky bass amps instead. This is why DI was invented!

The real reason so many bass players love mushy distorted tube amps is because it covers up their sloppy playing. :p Unfortunately, there are a lot of just passable bass players out there.

Most bass players I come accross never change their pickups or even consider it and they almost always have a mental blank when it comes a guitarist's quest for tonal nirvana. Different breed that's all.

"Tonal nirvana" is in the ear of the beholder. Most of the bass players I come across already have Bartolini or EMG pickups in their basses... why would they want to change them? There's been a big after market in replacement bass pickups ever since DiMarzio came out with the Model P in the 70's. If bass players were so happy with the stock Fender pickups, they sure didn't act like it. Everywhere you looked were P basses with cream colored pickups! I even had one in my '72 4001 bass.

I guess you think a Jazz Bass with stock pickups is all that? Not bad for a rather narrow tonal range. I think they are pretty boring myself. I hate that narrow neck. Give me a P-bass neck any day.

Bass players these days are more interested in "modern" high tech instruments and amps, while guitar players want "vintage" style instruments, and the same tone that has been used for the past 40 years! It's not a bad tone, but you will be hard pressed to get most guitar players to use something that isn't a Strat, Tele, or Les Paul derivative. It's a product of the music played, which was invented with those tones, and it just keeps going around.

As an example what instrument are you playing in your user picture? :)

[Spence]

Sorry. Can't agree with any of that. All the Bill Lawrence pickups I have owned were poor. I don't like his designs. How many people exactly are using thunderbird pickups?
Noise isn't music but then neither is reverb. Is it about time we moved on? Why is it do you think that vinyl refuses to die even though industry tried to kill it dead? The same applies to guitar designs and tones. You might want to kill it off but there's a whole load of people out there who will tell you exactly where to go.
So I'm playing a fender Strat in my little pic. So what. truth is I'm not a huge fan of playing a Strat. I also have a selection of other well known guitars. But then as I have owned over 50 different guitars and basses I feel I'm well qualified to decide not to buy some stupid design based on a coffe table that has no beneficial qualities. I got fed up with Fender and Gibson wannabees, tried some exotic brands and even el cheapo 60's Japanese stuff. No good . Although I appreciate a wood grain or two, I prefer my guitars to look like guitars rather than a piece of furniture.
As for your Bartolini pickups, I would agree they are nice on a bass. Their guitar humbuckers suck big time.
The last recording I made on bass was done in 1992. The enginner insisted I DI instead of using my Hughes & Kettner Valve preamp and poweramp through two 10" and an 18" Eminence. Totally screwed the sound I was after. Too clinical and no warmth. What a bloody waste. Turned me right off bass and studio engineers.

[David Schwab]

Sorry. Can't agree with any of that. All the Bill Lawrence pickups I have owned were poor. I don't like his designs. How many people exactly are using thunderbird pickups?

Pick up a copy of Bass Player. Apparently Thunderbirds are real popular basses these days. I never cared for them myself, mostly because they neck dive. Entwistle liked the pickups. He used them in all his "Fenderbirds".

Noise isn't music but then neither is reverb.

Reverb is a continuation of the sound of the guitar, hum is not. If you prefer hum, don't plug your guitar in, just use some unshielded wire. Noise has no pitch, right? That's why they call it "interference"... it is interfering with the sound.

Why is it do you think that vinyl refuses to die even though industry tried to kill it dead?

Beats the hell out of me. I've A/B'd some of my vinyl with the CD's and the CD's sound better to me. The vinyl is mushy sounding.. no punch. People say it's warm, but it's really soft and muffled. It does not sound like the source material. People buy expensive sound systems and then play vinyl on them. Might as well save the money and play CD's on cheap systems! ;)

And actually MP3's have taken over music sales... vinyl, CD, or otherwise.

The same applies to guitar designs and tones. You might want to kill it off but there's a whole load of people out there who will tell you exactly where to go.

Really? I haven't seen anyone trying too many new guitar designs. Only basses. I'm not trying to kill anything off, I'm just making better basses.

Although I appreciate a wood grain or two, I prefer my guitars to look like guitars rather than a piece of furniture.

So wood grain means it looks like furniture? What about a flame top Les Paul or a nice Martin? Sorry, but an Alembic does not look like a chair.

I like paint too... most of my other basses are black.

As for your Bartolini pickups, I would agree they are nice on a bass. Their guitar humbuckers suck big time.

Depends on what music you are playing. They sound great for jazz. Listen to Tuck Andres. He gets a great tone... warm and clear. But generally bass players prefer more accurate pickups. Guitar players want the sounds they grew up hearing.

The last recording I made on bass was done in 1992. The enginner insisted I DI instead of using my Hughes & Kettner Valve preamp and poweramp through two 10" and an 18" Eminence. Totally screwed the sound I was after. Too clinical and no warmth. What a bloody waste. Turned me right off bass and studio engineers.

Well that was a stupid engineer. I recorded just last week. You couldn't tell I'm not using an amp. Real fat and punchy.

Go put on Sgt. Pepper and tell me the bass is clinical and lacks warmth. That was all DI.

[RickyD]

This is a great thread. There's a lot of hard won knowledge flying around here.

I remember the 70's stuff as the low grade look-alike new crap that started everybody hunting for the 60's stuff. Guess it's all "vintage" now.

[Ruel]

This is a great thread. There's a lot of hard won knowledge flying around here.

I remember the 70's stuff as the low grade look-alike new crap that started everybody hunting for the 60's stuff. Guess it's all "vintage" now.

Yup! Totally enjoyed the interaction between David and Spence (in addition to the contributions of the other members). Learned a lot too. Kinda reminds me somewhat of a Celtic and Hawks ballgame in the '80s. Larry Bird and Dominique Wilkins trading and making shot after shot. Their teammates and the whole crowd watching and waiting who will miss first.

[Spence]

Now then, I do know a little bit about Mr. Entwistle and his Fenderbird hybrids. A great bass player I know was a personal friend of the late great Who bass player and is dedicated to the cause of recreating the Fenderbird. Any idea who will be doing the pickups???

Have a look at these links :

http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=37385807&blogID=134946343

and

http://www.whosnextband.co.uk/index.php?id=craigbio

Oh and yes I'm enjoying the exchanges too. ;)

[David Schwab]

I remember seeing that Zemaitis looking bass before.. very cool. I always wanted one of those Zemaitis guitars.

There's a website dedicated to Fenderbirds... seems everyone wants the old nickel covered pickups and not the new Thunderbird Plus pickups. It can't be that hard for Gibson to make those pickups... they also messed up the LP Signature pickup on the Epi Jack Cassidy bass. Doesn't sound the same as the original. The Ripper pickups were very similar to the Thunderbird.

I'm enjoying this too... everything is valid when it comes to music... even if I don't like it. :) It's amazing all the variation people can come up with using the same 12 notes, wood, wire, and some magnets.

I just miss all the funky guitars from the 60's and 70's... things are a bit too homogenized now. I remember playing a Silvertone with gold foil DeArmond pickups and thinking "these are cool sounding single coils, and they don't sound like a Strat!" :D

The music business used to reward artist being different... now everything is too safe and categorized. Bah! :mad:

[NightWinder]

Stitches anyone?

[NightWinder]

Rambo- the last scene.....noone knows their getting chewed up......it just happens.

[David Schwab]

Now here's a novel use of Thunderbird pickups... I wouldn't have done this to a 1956 P-bass ... :eek: But then I've done some wacky mods to old basses (well in 1974 my 1972 Rick wasn't an old bass... ;) )

(Mike Watt's bass)

http://www.hootpage.com/56pbass.jpg

[PoorMan]

Interesting...

Nightwinder, madialex and Mystic all gave examples of amazing PAF tone with the slug coil wound hotter. I was under the impression that traditionally the screw coil was biased because biasing the slug coil can make a pickup muddy.

How say you?

[Spence]

Cutting through swathes of crap........

The screw side of a PAF type pickup is sometimes wound hotter. This is only because it's closer to the bridge so if you coil tap it, you'll be switching off the slug side. You need a little more power from the screwside then.

Another case for The Mythbusters

[mick]

It was wound hotter because fitting a cover tends to lose some treble , so the thinking behind it was that increasing the screw side winds would counteract this ,

Mick

[Ruel]

I am of the same thinking as Spence. If and when you make a coil tap, the screw coil should be hotter if you are to shunt off the slug coil.

[NightWinder]

Please note, this is what the actuall 59' read out at without a cover. I believe it would be up to you as your signature paf pickup and its design. What your findings/etc are, and what you settle on with your ears.
Traditional in the modern times of NOW, MAny humbuckers are poping up with a screw side with a high turn count. This is not uncommon.
I will Say this.....The differing of turns between the two.....are remarkablely unstable. Meaning, for a givin number of turns,wire awg, there IS a fine line to work with, and finding it is really hard, and sometimes a real bitch. If you are slightly off one way or the other.....the magic does not exist!!
Welcome to the forum to POORMAN. Its fun to hang out, but I wound'nt want to live here!!!! Ah, and your already in the mix with the famous PAF myths.....LOL good times man!

[NightWinder]

LOL funny shit Spence, AHhhahahah.

[NightWinder]

POOR MAN- This place is great for agood laughs too....Read the whole thread,,,,,,

[David Schwab]

It was wound hotter because fitting a cover tends to lose some treble , so the thinking behind it was that increasing the screw side winds would counteract this

An interesting note is the idea behind the humbucker was to have the exposed screw pole coil to pickup more of the strings than the covered slug coil, which would pickup more noise. (or course Lover says he originally didn't want any adjustable poles...)

This is still the premise with stacked humbuckers, where the bottom coil is more or less a dummy.

So it is interesting to think of each coil on a PAF style pickup as having a slightly different tone.

One experiment would be to have a trim potentiometer in parallel with each coil, which would then be used to fine tune the balance between the two. This has appeared in a couple of patents for stacked pickups (on one or the other coil) most recently by Kevin Beller of Duncan pickups. (pat 7166793 (http://www.pat2pdf.org/patents/pat7166793.pdf)) It's an interesting read.

[PoorMan]

Cutting through swathes of crap........

The screw side of a PAF type pickup is sometimes wound hotter. This is only because it's closer to the bridge so if you coil tap it, you'll be switching off the slug side. You need a little more power from the screwside then.

Another case for The Mythbusters

So much misinformation out there. I'm trying to learn. I've been doing tons of research, but I don't know what to believe. (I'm not saying I doubt you). I got my info from an interview with a very well respected winder.

[PoorMan]

Ah, and your already in the mix with the famous PAF myths.....LOL good times man!

Wonderful.

Sorry, I'm not trying to spread misinformation. I'm just a hobbiest trying to learn (that's why I asked). That info came from a very prominent and respected pickup winder.

[David Schwab]

That info came from a very prominent and respected pickup winder.

You'll find a lot of the winders mismatch their coils. So that much is true. And there are winders here who can tell you first hand what that does to the tone.

I pointed out one day that Gibson never mismatched their coils intentionally with the PAF's (Or any other pickup they made... not sure about the new ones, but I bet they don't).

So while it could be a good formula for a great sounding pickup, it really has nothing to do with a PAF, albeit maybe matching one particular pickup, that happened to have mismatched coils due to the winder not paying attention. ;)

Not everyone here agrees with me on this, and that's ok. :D

[NightWinder]

Stay tuned.....It gets better. Glad to see your here enjoying things. Lots of misinformation in interviews too, so be careful. Not to say its not true, just speaking....
Basically, its going to come down to you doing it.....And don't get discouraged if somethngs don't happen for you right away. You first few will be a hell of a lot better than production stuff, and you will eventually have many sleepless nights with a wondering mind trying to get better at this or that, or what ifs. Its very rewarding to say the least. All the best of luuck and prosperity (fuk,spelling). Remember, its fun!! Stay lighthearted about it bro!

[PoorMan]

Stay tuned.....It gets better. Glad to see your here enjoying things. Lots of misinformation in interviews too, so be careful. Not to say its not true, just speaking....
Basically, its going to come down to you doing it.....And don't get discouraged if somethngs don't happen for you right away. You first few will be a hell of a lot better than production stuff, and you will eventually have many sleepless nights with a wondering mind trying to get better at this or that, or what ifs. Its very rewarding to say the least. All the best of luuck and prosperity (fuk,spelling). Remember, its fun!! Stay lighthearted about it bro!

Thanks, NightWinder.

You're right. I'm at the point where I need to start winding and figure out the rest for myself.

[Spence]

Breaking news:

Machine wound PAFs are best therefore stop what you're doing and get your Duncans, DiMarzios and Bill Lawrence pickups back out.

Just a note to Poorman; you'll not get any mis-information from me. It's not like you're an immediate threat to my business or anything are you?
This is an experience sharing community. Some people have different experiences to others. Some share, some don't. But the guys who come on here every so often with the intention of spreading their viral mis-information are soon exposed. I don't know who your respected winder chappie is and neither would I be impressed by the revelation of his identity. Remember, no one on this forum has to help you at all but if I spouted some crap in reply to your question, others here would rightly get pretty pissed with me.

If you really want to know the answers and understand the subject, you'll need to get past the bollocks interviews and your first half dozen Stew Mac kits.

[PoorMan]

It's not like you're an immediate threat to my business or anything are you?


Me a threat? Hardly. I have no interest in entering the business. I have a decent paying gig already. I just find the subject interesting and my goal is to make really good pickups for myself. I'm a tinkerer with a lot of guitars who doesn't want to spend $160 a pop to try to find a pickup I like.

Thanks to all for the info. Sorry if I hijacked the thread.

[mick]

don't apologise for hijacking a thread , it happens as things go along , what Spence has said is correct , cut through the bollocks ( and there's lots of it on here ) and you will learn heaps , trust nothing but your ears , and remember an expert is someone who knows just that little bit more than you ( or me as the case may be ) the real knowledgable guys very rarely post.....probably sitting at home laughing at all the squabbling etc among the self proclaimed " experts ".

Mick

[madialex]

don't apologise for hijacking a thread , it happens as things go along , what Spence has said is correct , cut through the bollocks ( and there's lots of it on here ) and you will learn heaps , trust nothing but your ears , and remember an expert is someone who knows just that little bit more than you ( or me as the case may be ) the real knowledgable guys very rarely post.....probably sitting at home laughing at all the squabbling etc among the self proclaimed " experts ".

Mick

SO true.... Yes some people will purposely post mis-information to throw someone off, see it as a threat I guess. One guy in particular, who was a member here and left soon after he got here, started his own board, tele wankers anonymous or something like that who became an expert in 6 months:rolleyes:

Just take it all in, get a few kits from stewmac and go at it. You can get small half pound rolls of wire from stewmac I think and kits and try different things. And welcome to the forum too......;)

[mick]

"don't apologise for hijacking a thread , it happens as things go along , what Spence has said is correct , cut through the bollocks ( and there's lots of it on here ) and you will learn heaps , trust nothing but your ears , and remember an expert is someone who knows just that little bit more than you ( or me as the case may be ) the real knowledgable guys very rarely post.....probably sitting at home laughing at all the squabbling etc among the self proclaimed " experts ".

Mick


## Sorry , should have read SOME of the real knowledgable guys very rarely post , my apologies to all the knowledgable guys who do post...##

Mick