Electronic counters help.

[madialex]

Someone on the other board had posted their digital counter and pics, also a lot of others chimed in on their creations, including using a bicycle speedometer. I really need some help figuring this out. Anyone and everyone if you have a counter idea I'd love to hear it.:help: :compress:

[JohnnyAtomic]

me too, I've having problems w/ my mechanical counter, I posted a thread over at the other ampage pickup maker forum. there were a few answers about a red lion cub electronic counter, I may go that route.

Johnny

[Mystic]

here's the one I use
http://www.redlion.net/Products/DigitalandAnalog/Counters/CounterRate/CUB5.html
I hooked it up to a prox switch.
http://catalog.sensing.honeywell.com/vsg_compare.asp?FAM=solidstateSG&P=&ITEMLIST=873043,873044,873047,873048

So far it works great, However the prox switch was $60 and the counter was $120. Kind of expensive but it will count down to zero rpm and the display will show red or green.

[madialex]

Um, why was this moved and where is it at now? I thought a winder counter qualified as something for the pickup makers forum as we all use counters. ??//:confused:

[Rob S]

I can see the logic, the 'A new winder' thread in this forum has some pertinent info.

This link may be useful:

http://www.hengstler.com/en/products/shop.php?catID=1004

Some of these counters double as timers and tachos with a maximum input pulse frquency of 40kHz (lots of r.p.m!). As I have said, they have outputs that could switch off the motor after a preset count.

The last one I bought on ebay was a b.n.i.b. IVO NE214 which has an analogue output to stretch the imagination - for the princely sum of 99p + postage.

Rob.

[Silent Bob]

If you enjoy assembling electronic kits then I can recommend the k129 from
http://www.ozitronics.com/ .
I used it along with a similar kit which functions as a tachometer. For some strange reason you have to ask Frank for the tacho kit. It isn’t listed but he does sell it.

I chose to go with a photo interrupter on my winder so I asked Frank at to reduce the debounce delay time when programming the micro processors.

[JohnnyAtomic]

On Friday I bought a Red Lion CUB3 counter ($25 locally at an industrial supply house), a couple of type N batteries for the CUB3 from local hardware store ($3), a couple of reed switches from Carlton Bates (a chain industrial electrical supply company) part number Hamlin MDSR7 ($1 each), and mini rare earth magnets from Radio Shack part number 64-1895 ($1.89).

I left my previously installed loud, rattle-ly, vibrating mechanical counter in place, and ran this counter in conjunction w/ the new electronic unit to calibrate the electronic unit to close to absolute accuracy and/or precision.

I don't know if I really needed to, but I used alligator clips as heat sinks while soldiering the tiny little reed switch into place. I did not know if heat affected it. Also, I'm glad I bought two switches because I broke the first one trying to mount it. They are INCREDIBLY fragile. It is a piece of glass about as big around as a grain of rice, and about 1/2 inch long.

I epoxied the magnet (actually two magnets stacked, they come in packs of two) to the drive shaft. Even though they would stay in place at 1500 rpm using only their magnetic properties, I epoxied them to make sure they did not become projectiles:eek:.

I have found it is dead on precise up to ~1200 to 1400 rpm, but stops counting completely at higher speeds (my counter will go up to about 1800-2000 rpm). I think has to do with the release speed of the reed switch, because the cub is supposed to be accurate up to 6000rpm. So I am in the process of installing an adjustable upper limit stop on my sewing maching speed control footswitch.

I also found that if the magnet is too close to the reed switch it will double up counts, and if too far away will generally not count at all.

Jason Lollar, If you are reading this, If you ever re-release/update your book you HAVE to include this CUB3 counter mod.

Works like a CHAMP!

[Mystic]

I like using a prox switch because it dosen't need any magnets, just a small piece of metel. I used a piece of aluminium foil scotch taped to the edge of my winders faceplate.

[David Schwab]

If a reed switch is too slow you might want to try an optical switch like they have in the Schatten winders. You would have to make some kind of light tight housing for the mechanism though.

[Rob S]

I have two spare bandit optical interruptable switches, they need a minor mod. Supply 5 - 15V D.C.

Could post to you two if you promise to use them.

Rob.

[JohnnyAtomic]

I have two spare bandit optical interruptable switches, they need a minor mod. Supply 5 - 15V D.C.

Could post to you two if you promise to use them.

Rob.

Tell me more about how you used/configured these switches.

Johnny

[Rob S]

Tell me more about how you used/configured these switches.

Johnny

Take a look at the 'A new winder' thread below. The opto just needs a disc with a hole (or 10) in or the sensor can be changed to reflective one and pointer at a rotating spot of white paint.

The 'slight mod' is just a resistor for the opto led and a matching one for the other led depending upon supply voltage - counters often have a sensor supply output.

Rob.

[Stan H]

I also found that if the magnet is too close to the reed switch it will double up counts, and if too far away will generally not count at all.


A simple debouncing circuit would be to put a .001uf capacitor across the input of the counter. This will pretty much stop the multiple counts.

-Stan

[lexluthier72]

Stan,
On the calculator counter below, where would said debouncing resistor go? I have not installed this counter yet, but plan on using it with my winder.
-Erin
http://europa.spaceports.com/%7Efishbake/counter/count.htm

[Stan H]

Hi Erin, I don't think you'll have as much trouble with bouncing on the calculator as you will trying to get it to keep up with the revolutions. But the "bouncing" circuit is just a small value capacitor, maybe .001 mfd between the hot and ground of the input.

Stan

Stan,
On the calculator counter below, where would said debouncing resistor go? I have not installed this counter yet, but plan on using it with my winder.
-Erin
http://europa.spaceports.com/%7Efishbake/counter/count.htm

[lexluthier72]

Stan,
Thanks...I will give it a try.
-Erin

[mkat]

I'm currently using the k129 kit counter with a reed switch. I have a couple of cub counters too, 4 and older 5, and a proximity switch but I haven't yet had time to hook them up to the winder. What would be nice though, is to preset the counter to stop the motor.

[Meowy]

I am considering building a Calculator / Reed switch counter.

I don't want to break the bank with some of the other ideas I've read as I am only winding at a hobby level

I am building my winder using a hand drill and hope to achieve several hundred RPM

How many state changes per second can a typical cheapo Radio Shack reed switch handle?

[Sock Puppet]

If you're in the U.K. I have a spare NE214.022AX01 counter that I got very cheap on ebay - make me an offer, daft offer appreciated.

http://www.checkline-europe.de/product.php//NE214/id/126027/lang/en/buy/yes/?PHPSESSID=88ff22ab492ba4e92f0e9426bbe942d4

S.

1620

[Yves]

I think counter issues have been related a few time in this forum so I am posting this that may help.

I have what I woud call a "standard" 4 digits counter kit. What actually has been a bit difficult to set up for me was the trigger for it.

- I tried some microswitch, with no luck. Though Jason mentioned in some post having this working fine on some winder he made, I never had this working. It just wouldn't count fast enough and would lost count (even if I put some capacitor in to avoid bouncing effect). What's more this was quite noisy indeed, and I was not too confident about how long a mecanical swith would last, should I have had it working.
- I also tried a digital hall effect sensor (Allegro). Despiste the good detection that it (seemed) to make, I had some reading that would not vary much for some reason. I would have need some circuit (op amp comparator or something) to have a proper triggering signal. That seemed to me too many part (plus PSU for op Amp), so I gave up this idea. There are integrated hall switches but I find them way too expensive for this application.
- So I ended up with what seemed to me the most complicated solution in the first place but that finally went quite smooth. An phototransistor optical switch (h21a1). This needs only a few other parts to work. I think this is what's in the Schatten winder, but as opposed to what I read somewhere here, it doesn't need to be in housed in some dark box to work (it's infra red, after all you don't need to switch off the light to use your TV remote control...).

It count up to more than 2000 rpm (though I never wind at that kind of speed, much too fast for me, this would give me loosy coils. I don't actually know how some of you manage winding with high speed. Well I know indeed, long lasting experience most probably...)

Yves.

[chevalij]

The opto switch is the way to go. they're about $2.50 each and provide a great TTL input to either a cheap cub counter or something a little better with form C relays. Use a wall wart and create s simple votage divider to provide the 5VDC and the 1.5VDC needed. Total cost minus the meter, about $15 wall wart included. There's no bounce, no screwing with reed switch positions. Simple, accurate counting.

[Joe Gwinn]

- So I ended up with what seemed to me the most complicated solution in the first place but that finally went quite smooth. An phototransistor optical switch (h21a1). This needs only a few other parts to work. I think this is what's in the Schatten winder, but as opposed to what I read somewhere here, it doesn't need to be in housed in some dark box to work (it's infra red, after all you don't need to switch off the light to use your TV remote control...).Incandescent lamps put out lots of IR. Likewise sunlight. This is why one puts opto switches in some kind of opaque housing.

Note that many thermoplastics are transparent to IR even if they appear black to the eye, so it matters what the housing is made of. The easy way to tell is to put the phototransistor in series with a battery and an ammeter, and see if external sunlight causes much current to flow.

The TV remote is IR for sure, but modulated at ~100 KHz, and so is easily told from steady lights. The opto interrupter uses steady light, so it's not so easy to tell from sunlight and/or incandescent lamps.

[R.G.]

Note that many thermoplastics are transparent to IR even if they appear black to the eye, so it matters what the housing is made of.
All metal foils are opaque to visible and infrared (yes, Joe, there are exceptions for ultrathin boundary cases like gold foil passing visible but not infrared, but for foils real humans can get) so gluing household aluminum foil onto anything renders it completely opaque.

[John_H]

The opto switch is the way to go. they're about $2.50 each and provide a great TTL input to either a cheap cub counter or something a little better with form C relays. Use a wall wart and create s simple votage divider to provide the 5VDC and the 1.5VDC needed. Total cost minus the meter, about $15 wall wart included. There's no bounce, no screwing with reed switch positions. Simple, accurate counting.

Thanks! You're absolutely correct. It's simple, and cheap. Total cost was about five bucks. I'm gathering pieces to build a new winder. This will work great with the NIB cub 1 counter that I won on ebay for $1.35 :)

[chevalij]

I see you went crazy and used a voltage regulator :) Told you it was easy. Beats a reed switch anytime and definately better and faster counting then the calculator trick. Once you got it working right, you can move it off the breadboard. Mine has the optical switch and all the electronics mounted on one board about 2" x 1.5".

[John_H]

I see you went crazy and used a voltage regulator :) Told you it was easy. Beats a reed switch anytime and definately better and faster counting then the calculator trick. Once you got it working right, you can move it off the breadboard. Mine has the optical switch and all the electronics mounted on one board about 2" x 1.5".

Here's the completed switch. It works great, even in direct light. There's also an extra added bonus. When it's connected to the frequency counter on my DMM it's a nifty tachometer!

[Yves]

As Joe mentioned, incandescent lamps and sunligth contains IR.
Before trying it and having read that these would need dark casing, I was expecting having trouble with direct light.

However, it seems that the direct light doesn't induce enough IR noise to get the switch jittering.
So I believe the IR used by the switch is of a strong enough power not to be disturbed in normal direct ligth use (I also tried putting some lamp quite close and it didn't jitter either).
It works for me and works for you John.

Still a safe measure would be to house the switch to be sure absolutely no outside IR would disturb it. But for now I've had very consitent results as for the winding reading in ohm vs the counts, and at slow (i.e. visible) speed I've never seen any bad counting.
So untill I go out winding under the sunlight :cool:, I will carry on like this

[chevalij]

John,
What's the purpose of the LED's? Just power indications, or are you using them for power regulation?

[John_H]

As Joe mentioned, incandescent lamps and sunligth contains IR.
Before trying it and having read that these would need dark casing, I was expecting having trouble with direct light.

However, it seems that the direct light doesn't induce enough IR noise to get the switch jittering.
So I believe the IR used by the switch is of a strong enough power not to be disturbed in normal direct ligth use (I also tried putting some lamp quite close and it didn't jitter either).
It works for me and works for you John.

Still a safe measure would be to house the switch to be sure absolutely no outside IR would disturb it. But for now I've had very consitent results as for the winding reading in ohm vs the counts, and at slow (i.e. visible) speed I've never seen any bad counting.
So untill I go out winding under the sunlight :cool:, I will carry on like this

There would have to be some very intense IR interference for it to have an effect

What's the purpose of the LED's? Just power indications, or are you using them for power regulation?

The blue tinted one is an IR LED, and the clear one is a photo transistor that's sensitive to IR wavelengths.

[chevalij]

Man, you went primitive :) I just bought the packaged optical switch!

[John_H]

Man, you went primitive :) I just bought the packaged optical switch!

I bought a couple optical switches this morning. I'll probably use one in the final design. This was mostly experimental. I didn't expect it to function so well. When I read the posts by yourself, and Yves I had to give it a try.