Is the 5E3 sound easily reproducible without the proper components?

[Satamax]

Hi everybody!

Well, i want to make a 5E3 in head form. Well, i have two transformers from an old revox valve reel to reel, 6or 8k output with a hefty core (looking as big as a bandmaster trany) and a double C cored power, pushing above 350vdc IIRC. But there's no 5V for the rectifier., so i could make a no tube recto 5E3, carbon film resistors, and polyester or polyurethane caps. With thoses components, do you think i could have a decent tweed sound? And finaly, is the tweed sound for me? Knowing that i live BF and SF deluxes ? :D

[Anon-O-Mus]

Sure, you can just use some old wooden kitchen spoons and plastic spatulas along with some tupperware bowls and make a dead ringer tweed sounding amplifier.:compress:

Uh, the simple answer is no. As to whether or not the tweed sound is for you, that is a very complicated question. You should really try to find a tweed deluxe original or clone somewhere at a music store and answer that question for yourself.

[Satamax]

Sure, you can just use some old wooden kitchen spoons and plastic spatulas along with some tupperware bowls and make a dead ringer tweed sounding amplifier.:compress:

Uh, the simple answer is no. As to whether or not the tweed sound is for you, that is a very complicated question. You should really try to find a tweed deluxe original or clone somewhere at a music store and answer that question for yourself.

Hi Anon.

Thanks a lot for the reply. As for finding a tweed, well, over here they're as rare as chicken's teeths. Components wise, i might not be too far. I have a pretty big stack of OOS caps and resistors that i can pull from. Very nice 6V6 from Fivre. The point where i'll lack, is the tube rectifier. Has anybody ever built a nice sounding tweed with solid state recto?

Bye.

Max.

[Normster]

Interesting build issue. I wonder how close you could get to tube rectifier goodness by using a sag resistor in the power supply? (100R wirewound 10W?) Or maybe one of those SS 5AR4 plug-in replacements since they don't need filament wires?

[Regis]

Sure, you can just use some old wooden kitchen spoons and plastic spatulas along with some tupperware bowls and make a dead ringer tweed sounding amplifier.:compress:

Uh, the simple answer is no. As to whether or not the tweed sound is for you, that is a very complicated question. You should really try to find a tweed deluxe original or clone somewhere at a music store and answer that question for yourself.

Nice smartass remark for your first post. So you signed up just to insult Satamax? He's a good man, a good contributor to this forum, and a nice guy.

Too nice to call you an asshole, but I'm not, Asshole.

[Satamax]

Nice smartass remark for your first post. So you signed up just to insult Satamax? He's a good man, a good contributor to this forum, and a nice guy.

Too nice to call you an asshole, but I'm not, Asshole.

Thanks a lot Regis but, don't worry, he's just some flamebait. I didn't even bother replying to his sarcasm.

Bye.

Max.

[Regis]

Thanks a lot Regis but, don't worry, he's just some flamebait. I didn't even bother replying to his sarcasm.

Bye.

Max.

Max, there is a great thread about Blackface vs Tweed over at the Gear Page.


Here is the link. (http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=151107)

I'm not that familiar with Tweed tone either, so it had some good info.

[MWJB]

Why not use a Weber copper cap? They don't need the filament wires, they do sound "good" (I'll certainly vouch for that), some even say they don't hear enough difference to justify a tube.

I haven't had any reason to change/replace them in any amps I've built with them/fitted them to, for tonal reasons. They are standard fitment in Weber tweed kits.

[Regis]

Why not use a Weber copper cap? They don't need the filament wires, they do sound "good" (I'll certainly vouch for that), some even say they don't hear enough difference to justify a tube.

I haven't had any reason to change/replace them in any amps I've built with them/fitted them to, for tonal reasons. They are standard fitment in Weber tweed kits.

This brings me to another question: I read somewhere that if you use a solid state plug in rectifier replacement instead of a tube rectifier you have to have a standby switch on the amp. If you don't, the startup jolt damages the tubes somehow, stripping the cathode maybe? I can't remember. I have a Kay 720 that has a 5U4 in it and was thinking about experimenting with a ss rectifer, although the amp sounds really good as it is after I did a couple of mods on it.

thanks,

regis

[Regis]

This brings me to another question: I read somewhere that if you use a solid state plug in rectifier replacement instead of a tube rectifier you have to have a standby switch on the amp. If you don't, the startup jolt damages the tubes somehow, stripping the cathode maybe? I can't remember. I have a Kay 720 that has a 5U4 in it and was thinking about experimenting with a ss rectifer, although the amp sounds really good as it is after I did a couple of mods on it.

thanks,

regis

Never mind, I went to Teds site and he sez you don't need a standby switch with his copper caps. Maybe other brands you might have to.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Hi everybody!

Well, i want to make a 5E3 in head form. Well, i have two transformers from an old revox valve reel to reel, 6or 8k output with a hefty core (looking as big as a bandmaster trany) and a double C cored power, pushing above 350vdc IIRC. But there's no 5V for the rectifier., so i could make a no tube recto 5E3, carbon film resistors, and polyester or polyurethane caps. With thoses components, do you think i could have a decent tweed sound? And finaly, is the tweed sound for me? Knowing that i live BF and SF deluxes ? :D

You might be closer to a 6L6 tweed amp with this if the trannys you are thinking of using are very large, but it will still sound tweedish.

The 5E3 used some fairly light weight trannys as compared to hi-fi equipment.
The OT only weighs about 1.5 lbs for comparison to what you have.

The B+ rail does sag a little under full power but the 5E3 runs it's power tubes so high in idle current that the actual power supply doesn't sag as much as some would think once the power tubes are fully hot.
However, you can use a 47 to 100 ohm 5 watt resistor after your solid state diode rectifier to add a little sag to the B+ rail to simulate some sag.
You can also use a 6CA4/EZ81 rectifier tube right from the same 6.3v filament string the rest of the tubes are using if you have enough extra current available.

[MWJB]

Hi Regis,

Ideally, you would only forego the standby switch if using a slow start up rectifier like 5V4 or 5AR4/GZ34. Even when using a 5U4 or 5Y3 you still get voltage spikes & cathode stripping on "turn on". This didn't stop manufacturers from fitting them to amps without a standby however (like your Kay). It wouldn't cause any kind of failure under warranty, just wears the tubes a bit quicker.

Solid state diodes do not have a slow start up, Weber copper caps are claimed to.

When going from a rectifier with a big voltage drop (5Y3, 5U4) to a rectifier with a smaller voltage drop (GZ34) or solid state diodes (no drop) it is wise to check that operating voltages for tubes & caps are not exceeded and that the bias current does not rise beyond sustainable limits.

[Satamax]

Hi everybody!

Bruce, thanks a lot for your reply, i forgot about 6V3 rectos :D IIrc, i might even have two 6V3 taps. I know i have some weird ones like 24, and 37something volts. Might have been for the motors. I gonna give it a try anyway, and see how it goes. Is it risky to run a chinese 5AR4 on 6V3? Or may be use a wall charger trany, if i can find a 3V5 and rectify it.

Bye.

Max.

[matndona]

:compress: The other option would be a separate 5V Power transformer. Here's one at Radio Spares that'd do 4A at 5V:

http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/rswww/searchBrowseAction.do?D=transformers%7c5V&Ntt=transformers%7c5V&Nr=avl%3auk&Ntk=I18NAll%7cI18NAll&N=0&Nty=1&name=SiteStandard&forwardingPage=line&R=0805029&callingPage=/jsp/search/search.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@0434538814.1154431868@@@@&BV_EngineID=ccckaddigmiefjdcefeceefdffhdgmo.0&cacheID=ukie

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Assuming you have a 6.3v winding and the PT is actually 700VCT tranny (with a center tap), use an EZ81/6CA4 rectifier.
The B+ voltage in your build might be pretty high for a classic tweed 5E3 tone.
Use polyester coupling caps and maybe voltage dropping 5 watt zener diodes in the hi voltage center tap to ground in order to lower the B+ a bit.

[Satamax]

Hi everybody!

Thanks Matandona.

Bruce, i don't know what voltages i have in there, iirc, it's not a center taped trany, but i can always use two 4007 for the center tap :D I've seen that done before. The trant was powering a pair of ECL86 and a pair of ECL82, plus a bucketload of ECC83 and 81, may be 8 or ten of thoses.

Bye.

Max.

[stokes]

My very first build was with some trannies I pulled out of an old Pilot hi-fi amp from the '60's.Had no 5volt tap so I used a 6X4 rectifier and later added a seperate 5v tranny.Even tho it was based on a 5E3 it had a voice of its own.It was a great learning platform that I made a lot of mods to over the years and still sounds great,maybe not a true Tweed but sounds good enough that my 18 year old son still gigs with it with his band.Go for it,you wont get a true Tweed clone but you most likely will like what you end up with.Use what you have available,assuming this is your first build I am sure you will like what you end up with,might take a lot of tweaking,but that is most of the fun in building your own.And there is plenty of good advice right here,in spite of some of the A*&^ holes.

[stevesamps]

You know sometimes I think this clone business is way out of control
I think you can get the vibe of an amp from junk parts, and it is an inexpensive way to hear a circuit, I have found its better to only shoot for the soul of the machine and improvise the rest, nothing wrong with accurate clones mind you
but close does count in this game just my 2 pennies...
Steve

[MKB]

You know sometimes I think this clone business is way out of control
I think you can get the vibe of an amp from junk parts, and it is an inexpensive way to hear a circuit, I have found its better to only shoot for the soul of the machine and improvise the rest, nothing wrong with accurate clones mind you
but close does count in this game just my 2 pennies...
Steve
Agreed on this point, you won't get exact but can get close with junk box parts. I have a 5E3 built that way (old lafayette stereo OT, Hallordson PT, G12H30 Celestion at 16 ohms), it probably isn't quite like a real 5E3 but it sounds very tweedy to me (I have an original 5F6A), and is mighty good as it is. It recently brought a friend to tears, he liked it so much; not anything special I did but it is a great design from Leo Fender. You should try building one if you have the parts, you'll probably get a great amp anyway if the parts are of the correct specs and values even if they are not accurate reissues.

You should try to stay with a vacuum tube rectifier or equivalent solid state replacement (Weber copper cap) as the power supply is a HUGE part of the tone in this amp. If it was me I'd add a 5V filament tranny and use a 5AR4 or 5Y3.