Skyrocketing gas prices....again...

[Slobrain]

Well on the local news today they said that the summer months might see $5.00 a gallon gas. Wahoo I get to go broke this summer with no vacation...

Rich getting richer and poor getting totally efin broke :eek:

I sometimes think the US economy is heading for another 1929 depression the way gas will stop folks from spending and the Dow Jones skyrocketing too.

Its funny that America is owned probably more by foreign investors than Americans the way we are being sold out by our own people. :confused:

And multi corporations exporting more jobs and importing poverty to boot...

When did America go so wrong??? Is it our politicians selling us out that bad???

SLO

BTW, Its funny how all of a sudden the refineries are having so many so called problems they use as an excuse to raise gas prices. :(

[hasserl]

When did we go wrong? I think it started probably about 40 to 50 years ago with the domination and monopoly of education by public education bureaucrats and teacher unions more interested in their own job security, and mass indoctrination, than in eduction. Which has resulted in the dumbing down of society to the point people do not comprehend basic economics and have a contrived fear and hatred of business and capitalism.

I don't know about you, but my economic situation continues to get better every year, and I am way ahead of where my parents were at at this point in their lives, which was way ahead of where their parents were at, etc. Life is good, and keeps getting better. If it's not for you maybe you should be looking inward, and not look to blame others for your situation.

I think its funny that anyone would think that a business like an oil company would invent reasons to reduce production levels of their main product at a time when the prices for that product is at all time highs. Any business would be at maximum production during those times, if at all possible. Problems that cause a reduction in production reflect inefficient management more than anything else, but not manipulation of the market. That is silly and shows a fundamental misunderstanding of basic business.

Gas prices at the pump are set by the station management, based on their estimate of how much it will cost them to refill the tank the next time they place an order, balanced against how much the competition across teh street or across town is charging. It's called market pricing, it's how the free market system works. If the station charges too much his price will be undercut by his competitors. If he charges too little he won't be able to refill the tank when it's empty. He also has to pay for all the business and environmental regulations, payroll and associated costs, insurance and taxes, etc. ANd he has to make enough to make it all worth his while to do so, or he goes out of business, then you have one less competitor out there, and one less supplier for you.

Quit seeing evil in everything, it's just people trying to make a living. The same as you.

[casey73]

And everybody said...Amen!!! hasserl - you took the words out of my mouth. I, like yourself, am in my early 50's, high school grad, working class upbringing, and my wife and I are doing amazingly well. Do I like paying more for gas. Well, no. But, I can afford to pay extra and am happy for that! Everything about my life is better than that of my parents. It is still a great country to live in and I'm glad I do! Thanks for that super sized helping of common sense!! We could all use a little more of it.

[Slobrain]

Let me retort to the comments made,

I do not see every thing evil. But my eyes are open to how corporations send jobs out of the country where hard working American folks could be doing these jobs. Oil companies that lie, like BP did in the Texas City explosion first blaming the blue collar workers, then later we all found out that it was problems from management not wanting to spend BP money to fix known dangerous problems that wound up killing innocent workers. Those dead workers could not get up and defend themselves against the lies.

So I guess Enron was just doing business as usual and that’s why the company failed :( No, it was lies and deceit that brought them down!

Just today I got my assessment from the local CAD and what do I see, my home appraised 10% more this year when the CAD folks know that home prices are falling because of what? Good corporations? Like the lenders that lied to a lot of American hard working class folks only to have the homes lost because of the supposed fixed rate mortgage that wasn't really fixed but most blue collar workers do not understand the writing on the loan paperwork that these companies set up so most folks cannot understand. Then get burned and lose what they thought was (the American dream). Lets see, how many homes are in foreclosure across America from these good honest lenders :(

I see good and evil in our country, also all around the world and if you’re not seeing both you must be living in LALALAND. But I would say the later is probably true and that's why this country is in trouble. Either no one wants to see wrong doing and try to figure a way to stop it, its easier for folks to just pretend that nothing is wrong until things go really wrong and its to late to fix the problems.

As far as gas prices set at the filling station, Not true, if that was the case who knows where gas prices would be but it starts at the price of a barrel of oil, not the pump.

Casey, I don't see every one saying amen till many others have a chance to chime in on this thread. sounds more like your own thought. But time will tell.

SLO

[Tom Phillips]

Right on Hasserl.
And I might add that another place that we went wrong was allowing people to think that the world owes them a living and that the government should take care of so many aspects of their lives. This too boils down to a failure of the education system. It amazes me that people believe the statement “Voting yes for this bond issue will not raise your taxes” Then they go ahead and vote for more ill conceived borrowing and inefficient government programs.
End of rant (for now)
Tom

[Brad1]

We can all look in the mirror and around our homes to see why energy prices keep rising.

How many of us have a gas-guzzler or two sitting in the driveway? How many electronic gadgets are constantly plugged in sucking juice, or turned on when we aren't using them?

How many things do we REALLY need that are Made In China? Do we need a new hi-def TV or LCD monitor right now? Or do we just WANT one?
Do we NEED a new cellphone or computer every couple of years? Nearly everything that is synthetic or plastic is made of petroleum. It takes energy to manufacture everything that is made. It takes energy to ship all that crap halfway around the world to us. The more money they make using petroleum to make more products that use more energy to manufacture and ship, the more money they have to buy what?
Luxury items like automobiles, appliances, computers, HiDef TVs...which all use energy. So, the more energy they use, the less available to us. Which drives up prices.

And no, it wouldn't make much of a difference if the item were made somewhere else. It would still take energy. I'm just picking on China because of the huge trade deficit that we are causing for ourselves with them. And also, because I think they really don't have our best interests at heart when manufacturing things. (That should be obvious with the pet food scandal). They have no REASON to make things more reliable and longer-lasting. They know we'll just throw stuff out and buy more. That's the way we are.

We are to blame for wanting more things, cheaper. We demand it. So, to make a profit, companies move manufacturing overseas where they can exploit people for lower wages and more profit. Or, they allow importing near-slave labor and exploit them because they know the illegal immigrant has little recourse.

It IS all about profit. A free market society needs profits to keep companies running. But, there is probably too little corporate responsibility to communities in America, these days, from supposed American companies.
I stated something like this in a line in a tune I wrote:
"Profit masturbation from the greedy corporations out to cut the bottom line,
Tax deductions for the charity donations for the unemployed they left behind".
(I was angry at a news segment I saw that day:rolleyes: )

Look around your city How many fast-food joints do we REALLY need? A lot of those energy hogs are open 24 hours a day. WE demand more convenience. WE demand they feed us cheap food at all hours. Those places use massive amounts of energy to keep the grills and fryers operating to heat up the food that is kept in coolers, and to air-condition the place because of all those heat-generating devices.

And, to make sure we still get it cheap, we bring in more people who will work cheap without complaining. All those extra people we bring in to work cheap have wants and needs. They need to use energy to keep warm and get to work. They WANT to buy stuff that they can't afford in their homeland. Like stuff Made In China.

I think when the oil companies are reporting massive record profits, something stinks a bit. But, it's probably more that our energy prices (and other things) are high because we demand more stuff, cheap.

Brad1

[steve]

When it really comes down to it, people are stupid and selfish.

People who are doing well and can afford to pay for high priced gas/food/electronics/whatever, will. The prevailing attitude seems to be: "F*ck everybody else, I've got mine."

steve

[hasserl]

Of course there is good and evil all around, there always has been and always will be. Let's not focus solely on the evil, and assume all business and coporations, or even the pursuit of profit, are evil. It is the pursuit of profit that brings us all goods, jobs and income.

And of course the price of gas at the pump begins with the price of oil. But the station owner has no control over that, and neither do the oil companies. "Big Oil" does not control the price of a barrel of crude. Oil is traded, and the price is set on the futures market. Of which you are free to participate in. Exxon-Mobile is the largest oil company in the world, yet they control only around 3% of the worlds oil reserves. The big player is Suadi Arabia with about 70%; Iran has about 30% IIRC, and Venezuela about 15%. All the large oil companies combined have very little influence over the price of a barrel of crude. It is the guys on Wall street and finance markets around the world that control that. And much is based on geo-political situations around the world, especially those where most of the world's supplies come from. Also the effect on the supply from developing markets, such as China and India. They are betting on the future supply/demand ratio, and they are not betting small amounts. Fortunes are won and lost in the futures market. Are you feeling especially smart or lucky? Go for it. See how much better you can do.

Americans that continually vote for Democratic legislators have little room to cry about the high cost of gas, Democrats fight every attempt to increase domestic oil production and refining of fuels. Stop putting these people that work against your own best interests in positions of power.

[Mark Ingram]

When did we go wrong? I think it started probably about 40 to 50 years ago with the domination and monopoly of education by public education bureaucrats and teacher unions more interested in their own job security, and mass indoctrination, than in eduction. Which has resulted in the dumbing down of society to the point people do not comprehend basic economics and have a contrived fear and hatred of business and capitalism.

How incredibly astute!

...Say...You're not one of those radical, right-wing nut-jobs are you?!? ;)

I agree with your views on education except that I would put the start of the dumbing down around the beginning of the mass migration to cities and the socialization of education.

People simply don't learn to think for themselves, and financial education is non-existent before college/university.

The rich get richer because they make it their responsibility to learn how money works, then they put their money to work.

[bob p]

When did we go wrong? I think it started probably about 40 to 50 years ago with the domination and monopoly of education by public education bureaucrats and teacher unions more interested in their own job security, and mass indoctrination, than in eduction. Which has resulted in the dumbing down of society to the point people do not comprehend basic economics and have a contrived fear and hatred of business and capitalism.
+1.

Its Econ 101: Elastic demand meets inelastic supply. This was already covered in the old thread about Evil Oil, but sometimes the concepts just won't take.

I think that another factor that makes superficial understanding of the facts such a problem is the crappy nature of the news media. The news is more focused on the Cult of Personality than on real news. Here in Chicago the news media has spent day after day talking about Paris Hilton going to jail, and no coverage whatsoever has been given to the Belgian oil refinery workers strike and the effects that it has had on the global supply of refined gasoline. I had to get that piece of information from Reuters.

Just in case nobody's noticed, although there's a good supply of crude inventory, there's presently a GLOBAL problem with refining capacity. Our local refining problems are bad enough, but when you take an entire European country's refining capacity offline, Europe has to shop on the world market, and everyone's prices go up.

Here in Chicagoland we have had fires at local refineries that continue to impede the ability to convert crude oil into gasoline, making local matters worse. The nature of the supply : demand relationship and its effect on prices should be evident to everyone, but instead of thinking about basic economics everyone's talking about Paris Hilton (as if she mattered).

Here in the Great Lakes area things are even worse than in other locations, as the EPA has mandated that we cannot use "regular" gasoline. We have to use a special "reformulated" blend that's far more expensive than conventional gasoline, and its in far shorter supply. Its truly ironic that the EPA mandates that we have to use "reformulated" gas that's more "environmentally friendly", but in fact it yields about a 20% reduction in MPG. As it turns out, we have a number of artificial market factors working against us. Many of them are so idiotic that only a bureaucracy could produce them.

SLO, I've noticed an emerging trend: Big Oil is Evil, eBay is Evil, PayPal is evil...

[Mark Ingram]

I think that another factor that makes superficial understanding of the facts such a problem is the crappy nature of the news media.
What a right-wing bomb-thrower you are! I bet you even listen to talk radio!

Do you rember that little experiment we all did in elementary school? the one where we put our left hand in cold water and our right hand in warm water for a minute or two? The we put both hands into a bowl of lukewarm water (neither cold or hot). The left hand thought the lukewarm water was warm and the right hand thought it was cold. It's kind of like politically-motivated commentary (I mean 'news reporting') today: the left- (television and newsprint) and right- (talk radio) wing factions are so far away from center that they don't recognize rational, even thought when they come across it.

With pitifully, painfully few exceptions, anything you can read in the newspaper, see on television, or hear on the radio is just another building block in someone's flaky agenda. If you know of any reliable, unbiased news outlets please let us know so that we can all hear/read/see them before they go out of business.

[bob p]

How incredibly astute!

...Say...You're not one of those radical, right-wing nut-jobs are you?!? ;)


What a right-wing bomb-thrower you are! I bet you even listen to talk radio!

anything you can read in the newspaper, see on television, or hear on the radio is just another building block in someone's flaky agenda.


100% of your posts in this thread have accused people of being right-wing nut-jobs. You're right -- it looks like somebody has a flaky agenda.:p

[Mark Ingram]

...right-wing nut-jobs...

Ever heard the old saying "Takes one to know one"?

Fiscally conservative, capitalist, accepter of responsibility for his own situation in life... Guilty as charged! :eek:

Kindly refer to to my previous post about the elementary school experiment. Wherever one places oneself on the scale, you are probably farther from the center than you think. I know I am :p


On a vaguely more serious note:
All this left v. right talk is kinda fun so long as the flames remain in the grasslands and posts are backed by rational thought (unless we're talking religion, conspiracies, or UFOs...:D

[Slobrain]

[QUOTE=bob p;21500 SLO, I've noticed an emerging trend: Big Oil is Evil, eBay is Evil, PayPal is evil...[/QUOTE]


:p LOL....Na, I don't see them as evil, more just on a bit of corrupt side maybe.

Evil would be more like some guy kicking a dog when dog's down and enjoying hurting the poor dog. :(

Maybe some of the refineries are having issues. Who really know for sure?
I have a some what of a short temper though when it comes to hearing record profits from these oil companies while gas goes thru the roof here in the US. I think it would make most folks wonder if there is corruption going on in the oil companies. I mean how could gas just keep going up like anywhere from 5 to 20 cents a week non-stop????

SLO

[Brad1]

How 'bout.... some of all of it? Conspicuous consumerism and apathy, emerging foreign manufacturing economies, refinery problems, Wall Street speculation, geo-political conflicts, different fuel blends mandated by out-of-control regulatory agencies...and some corruption.

We are basically funding some people who want to wipe us off the planet, and THEN paying to defend ourselves against them.

Someone mass-emailed one of those "Don't buy gas on the 15th!" things. :rolleyes: Yeah, that'll show'em! Won't make a difference. If you still use the same amount to get to and from work, or do other things...it's still the same gas whether you buy it the day before or the day after.

How about "Don't DRIVE on (whatever day, or days) each month!"?
Well...yeah, right. That'll get into peoples' actual habits and selfishness, and it's a good idea if OTHER people would do it...but not ME!

Besides, the oil comapnies may just do like the local water company did during drought conditions. "Everybody did such a GOOD JOB of conserving water last summer that we have to raise the rates to cover lost profits!"

Brad1

[Satamax]

Hi everybody!

Well, Brad, the don't drive on alternate days is aplied on some cities in europe.

Slo, may i say something? Bend the fucking rules. Get an old diesel, and drive on waste vegie oil! An old blazer for example, okay, big gas guzzling engine, but with a good turbo and some vegie, you'll save tons of money! Up your packing costs on ebay, if they're advertised clearly, there's no prob. Education wise, you'll see the big change during your live imho. Internet teatching. Less school and more ccomputer learning. Why teach history to kids who don't fucking give a shit about it? Or literature or whatever. They need to learn what they want! And they'll discover soon enough how to learn what they need.

Get my point?

Bye.

Max.

[Mark Ingram]

...some guy kicking a dog when dog's down...

Isn't that how they make country music? ;)

[bob p]

:p <-- Tongue-in-Cheek icon used to identify tongue-in-cheek posts.

:D

Brad, you're right -- its a multifactoral problem, and oversimplification just doesn't do it justice.

Back to the subject of monopolies on education, although I like the idea, I was lucky enough to have a privately funded elementary and secondary education, and I wasn't subject to the big monopoly educational system. Even so, Economics wasn't part of the school curriculum. I had to learn it on my own. I can't really place blame for this on the government monopoly on education. I consider Economics to be an advanced course of study that for many people is probably elective rather than compulsory.

[bob p]

Max, now that being "green" is fashionable, its harder to find waste veggie oil for converted diesel trucks. It used to be that restaurants had to pay someone to haul the stuff away, so they were quite happy to give it away. Now that its widely recognized as a useable fuel, its harder to find free supplies. Now that the restaurants are wise to the idea, they're selling their waste oil, and the price of free fuel just went up.

Its funny, the whole Green Ethanol thing is pretty big here in the Midwest, as farmers in the corn belt have dreams of profits like they've never dreamed before. But there's a downside:

According to ABC News, if 100% of the corn crop in the USA were diverted into biofuel Ethanol, it would provide sufficient energy to offset 12% of our foreign oil imports. 12%. That's not much, considering that if we used all of the corn for biofuel, there wouldn't be any corn left to eat.

Here in America its pretty hard to find any packaged foods that don't contain high fructose corn syrup or soybean oil. Imagine what's going to happen to the cost of food if the fruit of the American corn belt gets diverted into our gas tanks. :eek:

[Satamax]

Bob, imho, forget about what information politicians let go through their curtain. I agre ethat actual corn supply isn't enough, for methanol! But i'd say methanol is a pretty uneficient fuel, the basil has been there and done that, to no real avail. Imho, diesel engine are far more fuel efficient. Remember that most of your V8 petrol guzzlers are outdated by far, exept some modern engines, but even thoses haven't been refined enough by today's standards. In euroland we're doing a bit better as far as efficiency goes, but most of the past 20/30 years research has been done on diesels. Japs, have progressed on both sides, and have given their share. Now my opinion is instead of paying farmers (our farm industry is going astray) to have fallows, better grow lint for linseed oil and fibers, or groundnut, or else, colza (Brassica napus), or last sunflower. Another great idea of napoleon, in the times, when schools were becoming compulsory for everybody, and there was no other way than wood stove to heat up classrooms, then he decided that every road side was to be planted with plane trees, plane trees can have their branches trimmed every three or four years wthout real harm, and thoses trees have remained untill now. Nowadays the governement is removing most of theses because they're too close to the road and that kills a lot of people. It doesn't mater much, ecologicaly wise, because the forest is increasing size in europe, but the space freed by the removal of trees could be used for something else, growing oil producing plants. How simple to use fallows, hedges, and roadside to grow thoses plants. I think we've become real lazy, in the past century, before the space on th side of the roads was used for feeding goats or cows. Over here in the mountains, there's large amounts of teraced fields which are going completely abandoned, because it's too tiring to cultivate them! Why not use them. I'm pretty sure that could be the case in your country, thought the mountains have never realy been cultivated in teh us, as you always had more space than needed. And again, forget about methanol as a fuel!

Bye.

MAx.

[Mark Ingram]

I agree that actual corn supply isn't enough, for methanol!

I recently heard on my local PBS radio station (during my drive home) that *all* the corn currently grown in the US, converted to methanol, would supply only about 12% of the fuel need for our autos. Bio-diesel may make more efficient use of crops, but I suspect it will also fall far short of the gallons needed to replace gasoline. I believe the answer is going to be a collection of many technologies.

Maybe we should all go back to using horses: they consume crops (like ethanol production), provide transportation, then produce heating fuel afterward. :p

[TD_Madden]

Remember that SOMEONE isn't allowing any refineries to be built...why aren't there any on the East or West Coasts? Hell, we can't even get wind-generators out-of-sight off Cape Cod.

The NIMBY crowd are the real ones at fault.

[Slobrain]

Remember that SOMEONE isn't allowing any refineries to be built...why aren't there any on the East or West Coasts? Hell, we can't even get wind-generators out-of-sight off Cape Cod.

The NIMBY crowd are the real ones at fault.

The Nimby crowd? I never heard that one before. Can you explain?

OK, I'm slow sometimes...LOL....

SLO

[Brad1]

NIMBY...Not In My Back Yard!


Brad1

[bob p]

Remember that most of your V8 petrol guzzlers are outdated by far, exept some modern engines, but even thoses haven't been refined enough by today's standards. In euroland we're doing a bit better as far as efficiency goes, but most of the past 20/30 years research has been done on diesels. Japs, have progressed on both sides, and have given their share.
its a myth that all Americans drive gas-guzzling V8s. there are far more fuel-efficient 4-cylinder and 6-cylinder passenger cars being driven on the roads here than there are 8-cylinder SUVs.

the best selling line of automobiles here in the USA is the fuel-efficient Toyota, not GM, Ford or Chrysler. i think that the notion that America is a country full of gun-toting, beer-drinking, Billy Ray Cyrus fans who drive V8 pickups is a sign that someone is listening to too much country music. :p

[Mark Ingram]

its a myth that all Americans drive gas-guzzling V8s
This is very true. I drive a 6-cyl and by lovely wife drives a 4.

There are far more fuel-efficient 4-cylinder and 6-cylinder passenger cars being driven on the roads here than there are 8-cylinder SUVs.Unfortunately, that is not the case here in North Texas. :( :mad:


a sign that someone is listening to too much country music. :p
This is *always* a problem. :p

[Mark Ingram]

The Cape Cod folk didn't want to have to dodge the wind turbines during their sailing excursions.

[Slobrain]

No one can say I ever drove a gas-guzzler. My first good car was a 1978 Mazda GLC 4 cyl. It was a good little car (get it) and didn't take much gas. My wife had a datsun 210 hatchback 4 cyl when we got married 20 years ago. We then bought a Mazda 323 4 cyl. Then a Camry 4cyl and a Toyota Rav 4-4 cyl.

We have stuck to the 4 cylinder format to save on gas even when it wasn't so expensive.

As far as energy conservation goes, we lurn out lights when not used, always have in 20 year marriage. I don't like to flush the toilet until I urinate in it at least 2 or 3 times even though it angers the wife, the smell.... We use the new florescent light bulbs thru out the house.

Heck, I wouldn't even mind putting up a wind turbine in my back yard but the homeowners association would fine me heavily as they say it looks bad :(

I would rather have a turbine and cleaner air then look bad but who can fight the HOA.

If some one wanted to help the green they should invent a new toilet that doesn't dump gallons of water on every flush, I cut my water level to the lowest in my toilets.

A house could be wired to use the bright LED's at such a low voltage for lighting.
To think about it, there is a dozon inventions waiting to be made helping cutting back on the carbon produced by each home in the US or around the world.

OK, who's gonna be the Ampager to make that million on a new green invention for the future??? ;)

[hasserl]

Max, I think you're right, the future is with diesel. The developement of diesel engines for passenger cars in Europe has far outpaced that of here in the US.Dirty little secret about bio-fuels, they increase ozone emissions. The US consumer's idea of diesel powered cars is burdened with the memory of cars from the 80's with gasoline engines converted to burn diesel; they were noisy, smelly and broke down alot and were expensive to repair, and were down on power compared to gasoline. A good modern diesel engine design is as quiet and clean, or cleaner, than a gas engine, and they haul ass! And they get great mileage while doing it.

Dirty little secret about bio-fuels, they increase emissions of ozone. :(

[hasserl]

No one can say I ever drove a gas-guzzler.

Oh, they can about me! Actually, I now drive a Ford Escape w/ 6 cyl engine, company car. But I still have my 68 Chevelle SS396 sitting here. It doesn't get much use these days, but it used to be my daily driver years ago. It's my third Chevelle, I had one other big block from 70, and one with a 327 small block also from 68. Then there was the Dodge Charger I had before that, a 71 with only a little 318 V-8. But it was sweet, the SE model w/ electric windows, AC, hide away headlights, upgraded interior. For a 19year old kid it was fantastic!

[Satamax]

Hi everybody!

Hasserl, the ozone production might not be that bad, as the ozone layer hole is still in bad shape. Thought ozone don't accumulate as C0² does.

Bob, and Slo, guys, remember that even if the mentality has changed in the us, the average power for a car in us is 230 something for a male, and 170 for a female. That's way over what we have over here. The usual female car here is in the 60 hp range. Okay, just remember that i'm an off roader driving a big diesel land cruiser. And that the prius isn't that ecologicaly sound! After, you all belive what you want!

Bye.

Max.

[bob p]

OK, who's gonna be the Ampager to make that million on a new green invention for the future??? ;)
I'm working on a new KT88-based stereo amplifier. It is very energy efficient, in that it recycles all of the energy it consumes by heating your house while you listen to music. Does that count???

[bob p]

Bob, and Slo, guys, remember that even if the mentality has changed in the us, the average power for a car in us is 230 something for a male, and 170 for a female.
yep, HP ratings are kind of insane over here. you don't need 300 HP to commute, though it is handy if you have to pull a trailer. the way gas prices are going, i wonder why more people don't buy scooters for their short trips.

one of the biggest "carbon footprint" changes I've made in my life has been -- believe it or not -- adopting a dog. now that i have a dog that needs to be walked, i walk a mile into town every day instead of driving a mid-sized car. in the spring, fall, and summer i don't have to drive to go to the park, the post office, the bank, or the movies. one walk into town every day spares a lot of car trips and significantly cuts down on the gas bills.

[Satamax]

Hi Bob, in the winter, i walk my way to the chairlift company i work for :D In the summer, i tend to use teh car more, building work etc! Thought, winter or summer, i only do 30km a week for shopping, and if i don't have to work outside of the workshop or chairlift company that's all i do usualy.

[Slobrain]

I'm working on a new KT88-based stereo amplifier. It is very energy efficient, in that it recycles all of the energy it consumes by heating your house while you listen to music. Does that count???


LOL.... I had a non master Marshall running 2-6550's and in the winter it would heat up a cold bedroom in about an hour or so when playing at med volume.

SLO

BTW, a dog isn't a bad idea, mans best friend, dog loves unconditionally and if some one tries to rob you on your walks the dog will bite his arse....


Ruff....ruff...

[Slobrain]

Please read this

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070516/pl_nm/usa_congress_gasoline_dc

I guess I'm not the only one to think the oil industry is ripping people off.


SLO Mr. rant.....

[jeffscreamedcorn]

+1.
Just in case nobody's noticed, although there's a good supply of crude inventory, there's presently a GLOBAL problem with refining capacity. Our local refining problems are bad enough, but when you take an entire European country's refining capacity offline, Europe has to shop on the world market, and everyone's prices go up.Close but no cigar. While there seems to be lots of crude oil available, our refining capacity is impeded due to the fact that we don't have enough refineries and the one's we have are in disrepair.

WHY? Is it that the oil companies can't afford it? Hardly.

Environmental policies and regulation? Please - that's the rhetoric of political opportunist.

The bottom line is economic... Big oil knows that there is not enough fossil fuel left in the ground to last long enough for new refineries to break even on the cost of building the necessary refineries to meet out demand, let alone turn a profit.

Face the facts - the well is going dry. The only alternative is new and innovative alternative methods of energy production. (And I don't mean ethanol - that's just a way to give bucks to agriculture.)

[hasserl]

Close but no cigar. While there seems to be lots of crude oil available, our refining capacity is impeded due to the fact that we don't have enough refineries and the one's we have are in disrepair.

WHY? Is it that the oil companies can't afford it? Hardly.

Environmental policies and regulation? Please - that's the rhetoric of political opportunist.

The bottom line is economic... Big oil knows that there is not enough fossil fuel left in the ground to last long enough for new refineries to break even on the cost of building the necessary refineries to meet out demand, let alone turn a profit.

Face the facts - the well is going dry. The only alternative is new and innovative alternative methods of energy production. (And I don't mean ethanol - that's just a way to give bucks to agriculture.)

No offense intended, but this is lame. You've been listening to alarmists who either have no idea of what they are talking about, or they just want to stir the pot for whatever personal or political agenda that this suits. Talk about political opportunism, it doesn't get much more obvious than this. We are in no danger of running out of oil, we will have oil to burn for centuries. It may cost a lot more, but it's not going away.

When we develop an oil field we only take about 10% of the oil from that field. That is the oil that is easy and cheap to remove. When that oil is gone it is more economic to move to the next field and take the 10% of the oil from that field that is easily and cheaply obtained. So we leave the remaining 90% and move on. We used to not be able to get the 10% we are getting now, but technology advances and makes available what was previously unavailable, and makes what was previously uneconomically viable to be viable. Technology continues to advance exponentially, and as the price of oil goes up it becomes economically sound with those advances in technology, to access more of that 90% of unused oil. This also includes untapped fields such as those in deep water in the Gulf of Mexico and the oil shale in Canada, sources of oil we've known about for a long time (as well as some new discoveries) but haven't had the technology to access it, or that price of crude was to low to justify it.

Besides, there really isn't much of an alternative to oil, there is nothing even on the horizon that can come close to providing the energy we need around the world, oil is it. The only alternative that comes close is nuclear power. The one thing leftists may hate more than "Big Oil".

[jeffscreamedcorn]

No offense taken or meant. Here's a Charlie Rose interview with Boone Pickens, who knows more about this subject than we'll ever know. He talks about oil supplies, and also addresses the need to push alternative energy sources into the mainstream.

As to Nuclear as a source of energy, putting aside the problem of the nuclear waste that they produce, the amount of energy used to build the facility cannot be recovered during the typical useful life of the reactor.

http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2006/06/16/2/a-conversation-with-texas-oil-mogul-boone-pickens

[hasserl]

Boone PIckens? Is he related to Slim? :D

Cool interview, but there's nothing there that contradicts what I posted above. I maintain, we will be using oil to supply our energy needs for our grandchildren's grandchildren. It may cost us more than it is now, but it will continue to be the most economical energy source.

[jeffscreamedcorn]

No doubt that oil his here to stay, and it no doubt will cost big $$$. My point, and even the Big Oil Man Pickens agrees, we have to start, and I mean NOW for 20 or 30 years forward, to mix our energy sources.

Ironically, there's big bucks awaiting those who have the vision and foresight to jump into the developing alternative energy markets. It reminds me that a mere 20 years ago I used to get calls weekly from this guy who was building venture capital for wireless communication infrastructure. Not only didn't I know what he was talking about (sounded like science fiction then), but I didn't have a pot to piss in if I did! I think anyone who can invest in alternative energy enterprises NOW will be greatly rewarded later.

[Mark Ingram]

When we develop an oil field we only take about 10% of the oil from that field. That is the oil that is easy and cheap to remove. When that oil is gone it is more economic to move to the next field and take the 10% of the oil from that field that is easily and cheaply obtained. So we leave the remaining 90% and move on. We used to not be able to get the 10% we are getting now, but technology advances and makes available what was previously unavailable, and makes what was previously uneconomically viable to be viable. Technology continues to advance exponentially, and as the price of oil goes up it becomes economically sound with those advances in technology, to access more of that 90% of unused oil. This also includes untapped fields such as those in deep water in the Gulf of Mexico and the oil shale in Canada, sources of oil we've known about for a long time (as well as some new discoveries) but haven't had the technology to access it, or that price of crude was to low to justify it.

Adding to what you have stated:

The oil what we (the US) are getting out of the ground currently (light, sweet crude or west Texas intermediate grade crude) has a relatively low viscosity (light or intermediate) and is high in the components that go well in our gas tanks (that's the "sweet" part). The 90% has a much higher viscosity and less of the stuff that distills into gasoline. American refineries cannot handle the heavier crude. That's why we buy so much refined petroleum from our enemy to the south, Venesuela. Venesuela has primarily heavier crude and has set up their refineries to handle it. But that process is more expensive and those expenses are passed on to us at the pump. I've heard that, if the price of oil were to go below $50 per barrel that the oil business would become a losing proposition for Venesuela. Interestingly, I have heard of a process to convert US coal into natural gas and then convert that gas into motor fuel. It seems the roadblock to this proposal is that the cost would necessitate a price point equivalent to $50-55 per barrel.

[RickyD]

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the U.S. made a serious push into diesel cars. My Jetta diesel averages 47 MPG and performs like the other cars in its size/price bracket.

The makers of the big Class 8 diesels you see on the highways (big tractor trailers) are the class of the world. Detroit Diesel, Cummins, Caterpillar. If you don't work with these things, you just couldn't know. How about an 80,000 pound truck that gets 7 MPG? Compare that to a 3500 pound F150 pickup getting 15 MPG. Maintenance, one asks? Detroit Diesel: torque the heads at 100K miles, in-frame overhaul at 1,000,000 miles. Lube service. One of mine made 1,300,000 before overhaul. I'll tell you why you don't see this in cars: No one wants a car that lasts that long...1,000,000 miles is 20,000 per year for FIFTY years.

[petemoore]

Everyone who recognizes their own inner light, recognizes that everyone has an inner light. My dog has it.
Those who shrowd their own inner light, may try to make others believe there is no such thing in themselves or in others.
'A false utopia may result, but you must keep your eyes shut/closed, really really tight, for that to work'.
Evil is something that can only be allowed to exist in your own mind...you know when you're not caring, and when you should have been sharing.
You know the light is there, it is recognized or efforts must be repeatedly made to shrowd it.
Publish the truth.

[RickyD]

Word.

[TD_Madden]

wha......?

[bob p]

its hard to take Boone Pickens comments about the oil industryas being 100% candid -- even though he's a famous oil investor, he's put huge sums of money into a private ethanol venture. it doesn't surprise me to hear him say that oil is in trouble and we need to buy the product of his latest investment vehicle.

on a related note, i just got back from a 1000 mile road trip this weekend. it was actually pretty painless from an economic standpoint. by decreasing my speed on the interstate from 75-80 mph (with the AC on) to 60 mph by cruise control (with the AC off, windows cracked open, and a cool drink), I got a 25% increase in fuel economy. that had a pretty significant impact on the total amount that i had to pay at the pump. it was like paying $2.25 instead of $3.00 per gallon. :)

what escapes me about american drivers is that by going 60, i was the slow poke in the right lane, and i was constantly being passed by impatient people going 80+ miles per hour -- likely the same people that we constantly hear whining about the price of gas. if the price of gas is too high to tolerate, my advice is simple: SLOW DOWN. you'll still get where you have to go, and it will cost quite a bit less.

if everyone dropped their fuel consumption by 20% by driving more slowly, the effect of demand destruction on a commodity that has inelastic supply would cause gas prices to plummet.

[Mark Ingram]

if everyone dropped their fuel consumption by 20% by driving more slowly, the effect of demand destruction on a commodity that has inelastic supply would cause gas prices to plummet.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but...

I wonder if anyone has done a study to determine the effects of being on the road longer due to driving more slowly. Things like wear on engines, consumption of lubricants, tire tread, etc. The impact on human performance, incidence of road rage, the impace of time away from family...

I'm have no doubt that fuel consumption would decrease with decreased speeds, but I am certain that fuel economy is not the only factor to change when people drive slower.

And what about the efficiency of engines at various RPMs (RsPM?)? There is certainly a more efficient operating range for each engine/transmission combination.

[bob p]

yes, the petroleum industry has studied all of the angles on the topic of lubrication. its a complex issue, but they have lots of answers. check out the american petroleum institute.

looking at the problem from an input/output perspective, i measured the oil level in my car before, during and after the trip. in dollar terms, the reduction in gas consumption was significant, and the amount of oil consumed was insignificant. the savings in fuel economy far outweighed any effects on oil consumption. not at all surprising, considering that the main energy cost of operating a vehicle at highway speed is a function of the load provided by wind resistance.

regarding efficiency of engine transmission combinations, one can measure the efficiency of engines in a laboratory environment, or on the road. while minor modulations in variables may be meaningful in the lab, they're overwhelmed by the load that wind resistance imparts on the vehicle.

i think that the cars being sold here in the US already have drivetrains that are optimized over a very wide power band -- after all, that's what multi-gear transmissions are all about. i'm sure that there's an optimal gear ratio, and several optimal speeds for the car, depending upon what gear you're in. today's on-board computers make it pretty easy to collect data while you're driving down the road.

my personal experience so far as been that reducing the wind load on the vehicle by reducing your speed far outweighs all of the other considerations, and that minute fluctuations in speed to optimize gear ratios haven't produced meaningful returns. in terms of measuring overall cost, the total amount of energy consumed in propelling the vehicle is the ultimate metric for propulsive efficiency. for cars, MPG seems to be the most meaningful number to hang your hat on.

i don't know much about the road rage issue, but i think that most drivers tend to get angry at the people that fail to yield the right of way, don't signal, and drive slow in the left hand lane. at least those are the things that bother me.

[jeffscreamedcorn]

Not to change the subject, but my pet peeve is the timing of street lights in urban driving conditions. Here in Boston I can drive on a relatively straight road at the posted speed limit and still hit red lights at every intersection. The level of stop and go that happens in city environments must certainly be a major contributor to fuel inefficiency, not to mention pollution.

[Brad1]

All of the above.

Back to my railing against "Made in China".

For the past couple of weeks, I have been gathering parts to give my Ranger a 60,000 mile maintenance service. New brakes, all new filters, new shocks, new tires...along with the regular oil change, etc. I have kept the truck in top condition for the 5 years it has taken to pay it off, for the best fuel efficiency and preventative-maintenance condition.

I found parts not made in China by trying different places on slightly different routes home. Not so much luck with the floor jack I thought I would buy to make things easier. They are ALL made in China! I figured "OK...none of the parts stores have one NOT made there, so I'll go check out Sears"....figuring I would be willing to pay a bit more for something NOT made there. Big surprise! ALL of the Craftsman are made there. AAAUURRRGHHHH! So, I started looking at other tools, just to see. A good portion of the venerable Sears Craftsman brand is made in China or Taiwan! There goes another American institution. I let the sales guy know about it...as if he cared.

I arranged to borrow a floor jack.

I will keep doing my small part to attempt to avoid buying anything made in China as much as possible. If I can't find anything, I may have to do without.
I just don't want to keep propping up a repressive regime that uses slave- and child-labor to make suspect, unregulated products to dump on us. The people are probably not seeing much of the profits. The government is probably raking in massive amounts of money to prepare to take over as #1 in the world. And, as we get our mainly unnecessary cheap junk cheaply, they are using more energy, which helps cause our energy prices to spike.

I realize it's getting more difficult to avoid, but if this computer conks out, I'll search for a late-model used one that I can fix up rather than pay them for new.

I don't need a new iPhone, iPod or any of that garbage. I get along fine without those toys. I do my best to avoid new musical equipment and peripherals made in China.

We are allowing them to destroy ourselves. What was it that someone said? "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"...or something like that.

So, let's just keep buying more and more junk. And, let's keep bringing in more and more energy-users who work for cheap. And, let's keep building unhealthy fast-food joints that gobble up massive amounts of energy.

After all, we DESERVE low prices, right? At what cost?

We're getting bit in the behind by a pack of wild dogs while we happily consume all our cheap junk. Just don't complain when we wake up and find we have no legs to stand on.

Brad1

[Slobrain]

All of the above.

Back to my railing against "Made in China".

For the past couple of weeks, I have been gathering parts to give my Ranger a 60,000 mile maintenance service. New brakes, all new filters, new shocks, new tires...along with the regular oil change, etc. I have kept the truck in top condition for the 5 years it has taken to pay it off, for the best fuel efficiency and preventative-maintenance condition.

I found parts not made in China by trying different places on slightly different routes home. Not so much luck with the floor jack I thought I would buy to make things easier. They are ALL made in China! I figured "OK...none of the parts stores have one NOT made there, so I'll go check out Sears"....figuring I would be willing to pay a bit more for something NOT made there. Big surprise! ALL of the Craftsman are made there. AAAUURRRGHHHH! So, I started looking at other tools, just to see. A good portion of the venerable Sears Craftsman brand is made in China or Taiwan! There goes another American institution. I let the sales guy know about it...as if he cared.

I arranged to borrow a floor jack.

I will keep doing my small part to attempt to avoid buying anything made in China as much as possible. If I can't find anything, I may have to do without.
I just don't want to keep propping up a repressive regime that uses slave- and child-labor to make suspect, unregulated products to dump on us. The people are probably not seeing much of the profits. The government is probably raking in massive amounts of money to prepare to take over as #1 in the world. And, as we get our mainly unnecessary cheap junk cheaply, they are using more energy, which helps cause our energy prices to spike.

I realize it's getting more difficult to avoid, but if this computer conks out, I'll search for a late-model used one that I can fix up rather than pay them for new.

I don't need a new iPhone, iPod or any of that garbage. I get along fine without those toys. I do my best to avoid new musical equipment and peripherals made in China.

We are allowing them to destroy ourselves. What was it that someone said? "All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing"...or something like that.

So, let's just keep buying more and more junk. And, let's keep bringing in more and more energy-users who work for cheap. And, let's keep building unhealthy fast-food joints that gobble up massive amounts of energy.

After all, we DESERVE low prices, right? At what cost?

We're getting bit in the behind by a pack of wild dogs while we happily consume all our cheap junk. Just don't complain when we wake up and find we have no legs to stand on.

Brad1

Brad,
I agree with you totally on this subject. Yes, when good men do nothing evil will triumph. That seems to be the sentiment these days in the good ol US.

The PIP only fuels this problem. You know, the rich getting richer while the middle class getting f*#@ed!

I'm sure some BOZO here at Ampage will chime in here telling me I'm only seeing the glass half full on this subject but that’s not the case here, we are allowing our country to be torn down by letting good American jobs go overseas and putting hard working Americans out of work just for cheap made crap!

It all just disgusts me!

[Mark Ingram]

regarding efficiency of engine transmission combinations
I was remembering that fateful day in history when the national speed limit was reduced to 55 mph. I remember a specific article in which a truck driver lamented that driving 55mph required 10th gear@1750rpm or 9th gear@2600rmp but optimal fuel efficiency came at 10th gear@2350rpm. The numbers may not be accurate but they convey the principle.

It just started me wondering whose agenda is being promoted and what information is being suppressed to support that agenda.

Damn! The cynic in me is starting to surface again.

[Mark Ingram]

I'm sure some BOZO here at Ampage will chime in here telling me I'm only seeing the glass half full on this subject but that’s not the case here, we are allowing our country to be torn down by letting good American jobs go overseas and putting hard working Americans out of work just for cheap made crap!
The reason jobs are going overseas is that people overseas are willing to do the work for less money. All the arguments about cost of living, etc, are meaningless because the game is about making a profit. If capitalist A can get a product to market for $X and capitalist B gets it there for $X+2, which do you think Joe SixPack is going to buy when he goes to his local Wal Mart? And if Wal Mart is so bad why do *so many* people buy their crap there?

[bob p]

I was remembering that fateful day in history when the national speed limit was reduced to 55 mph. I remember a specific article in which a truck driver lamented that driving 55mph required 10th gear@1750rpm or 9th gear@2600rmp but optimal fuel efficiency came at 10th gear@2350rpm. The numbers may not be accurate but they convey the principle.
interesting point, Mark. Freight haulers, with their high count of short gears are a pretty extreme example, but a valid example nonetheless. the numbers strike me as a bit odd though -- i have an acquaintance who drives big rigs for ABF, and he tells me that their rigs are speed-governed to run at 55 mph. Based on your numbers, if that's not an optimal point for fuel economy it would seem that some bean counter at ABF has things all wrong!

For obvious reasons, the truckers have great interest in fuel economy. I think that professional drivers are more in-tune with driving to optimize fuel economy than the average "Joe Sixpack" driving his F150, or the average Mom driving a minivan. Well, at least that's the impression that I get when I'm going down the road and they go flying past me!

Thanks for the insights.

[bob p]

The reason jobs are going overseas is that people overseas are willing to do the work for less money. All the arguments about cost of living, etc, are meaningless because the game is about making a profit. If capitalist A can get a product to market for $X and capitalist B gets it there for $X+2, which do you think Joe SixPack is going to buy when he goes to his local Wal Mart? And if Wal Mart is so bad why do *so many* people buy their crap there?
Its not only about jobs that go overseas. Anyone who enjoys a high paying job that can't be shipped overseas still suffers from the same problem. Highly skilled people, whether they be airline pilots or surgeons, used to enjoy much higher paychecks than they get today. Employers have purposefully hired young people and foreign-trained immigrants who agreed to work for half of the paycheck, because half of the paycheck seemed like a lot of money to them. Half of the paycheck is seems like a LOT of money when you're a single young buck who is fresh out of school, but it doesn't go as far when you have a family to support. The problem is that young workers who are fresh out of training often don't fully understand the value of their training, and they tend to agree to work for wages that are less than they would otherwise enjoy if they were more saavy negotiators. The problem is that once someone comes along who undervalues his skills and agrees to work for half the pay, the bubble is burst and everyone has to work for half of the previous wage. The bad news is that even people with highly irreplacable skills can lose half of their income and their jobs weren't even exported to China.

[Mark Ingram]

the numbers strike me as a bit odd though -- i have an acquaintance who drives big rigs for ABF, and he tells me that their rigs are speed-governed to run at 55 mph. Based on your numbers, if that's not an optimal point for fuel economy it would seem that some bean counter at ABF has things all wrong!
Apparently I was not making myself clear: I am not sure of the exact numbers the interviewed trucker used, but I *am* sure of his point, which I feel I was able to convey to you.

This interview was published at the time that the speed limit was changed, so I am sure that no one had governed vehicles to 55mph at that point. It is entirely plausible that trucks have been optimized/speed-governed/folded-spindled-mutilated for 55mph since then. But my daily commute home tells me that, at least where I live, the only thing governing truckers' speeds is police speed-traps and hybrid SUVs. ;)

[hasserl]

Brad,
I agree with you totally on this subject. Yes, when good men do nothing evil will triumph. That seems to be the sentiment these days in the good ol US.

The PIP only fuels this problem. You know, the rich getting richer while the middle class getting f*#@ed!

I'm sure some BOZO here at Ampage will chime in here telling me I'm only seeing the glass half full on this subject but that’s not the case here, we are allowing our country to be torn down by letting good American jobs go overseas and putting hard working Americans out of work just for cheap made crap!

It all just disgusts me!

When discussions in the Off Topic forum get to name calling I quit participating. I rely on Ampage for good info on amps and electronics, and I like to maintain relationships with the people here on a high level. I think we can disagree about these things without calling each other Bozo's or other demeaning names. These opinions we have are all formed from the perceptions we have, and while we may not agree we can disagree without making personal attacks.

If you really believe what you wrote above then you and Brad can do what you can to avoid purchasing anything from China. Good luck on that. But let me give you an alternative view point. As economic conditions in China improve the standard of living for the people there also improves; and as the standard of living improves the people become more and more focused on continuing to improve their economics and their standard of living. War goes against this. It is in their, the people and the government, best interest to continue to improve trade relations with the west, which reduces the threat of war for all of us. Besides getting better made products at reduced prices, improving our standard of living, the threat of war is reduced. It's a win-win situation.

Besides, American industry can outperform China, or any country, in most any segment, but we need to take advantage of advances in manufacturing processes in order to do it. Lean manufacturing is a developing field that anyone would do well to get involved in, as the demand for experts is only going to increase dramatically over the next few decades. American business has to revolutionize, we have advantages in higher numbers of well educated people, and experienced industry. American workers are often the most productive workers in the world. But people who cling to the past and refuse to change with a changing world hold us all back. Outdated Union protectionism only serves to hurt the very people it portends to protect. Look at the US Auto industry for example. Tax laws that restrict the turnover of equipment hurt; it is Democrat politics that fight any attempt to modernize and improve tax laws, yet they portend to be "for the worker" that their policies end up hurting. They even have threatened to eliminate the tax cuts that the Bush Admin and the Republican congress enacted that have been so vital to providing for the business climate that has created the best economy ever. Considering that this great economy has come on the heels of the Clinton recession, the tech bust, the terrorist attacks of 9-11 and the near death of the airline industry, to even consider dicking with the tax cuts is suicidal.

[hasserl]

Apparently I was not making myself clear: I am not sure of the exact numbers the interviewed trucker used, but I *am* sure of his point, which I feel I was able to convey to you.

This interview was published at the time that the speed limit was changed, so I am sure that no one had governed vehicles to 55mph at that point. It is entirely plausible that trucks have been optimized/speed-governed/folded-spindled-mutilated for 55mph since then. But my daily commute home tells me that, at least where I live, the only thing governing truckers' speeds is police speed-traps and hybrid SUVs. ;)

This is correct, the most economical speed may not be the slowest. Besides, a large part of my business has to do with On-Highway Heavy Trucking, I can't imagine ANY company putting controls on their trucks restricting them to 55 mph. I've never seen it and don't believe it's true. And the main reason why would not necessarily be fuel economy, but driver retention, which is extremely difficult in the trucking industry. Driver turnover is the highest it has ever been, and getting worse. Companies just can't keep up with demand for drivers, and drivers can pick and choose who they want to work for, who can make the best offer for them. Putting a governor on the truck to keep it at 55 mph max would not go over well with drivers, not at all. They'd be down the road to the next guy that will provide the better truck with all the electronic gadgets to make the truck a nice home away from home, without the 55 mph governor.

[bob p]

I can't say whether or not my old neighbor who drove for ABF was right or wrong about the 55 mph governor that he said they had on their trucks. I can only say that this is what a professional driver told me about his rig, and I took it at face value.

I would expect that truckers wouldn't like speed governors, but like anything else, if some bean-counter in the corporate office convinces management that its a good idea, the idea moves forward without regard for what the little people think.

I don't doubt that truckers wouldn't like a speed governor. I wouldn't think that truckers would like to have GPS units over their heads either -- after all, who would want Big Brother micro-managing your every move? I could just imagine someone hauling strawberries being told that he took too long at a rest stop. Since you've got experience in this industry, can you tell me how the GPS units actually get used, and how the drivers have reacted to having GPS units placed on top of their rigs?

FWIW, I have heard that driver retention is an issue in the trucking industry. Never having been a trucker, I can only rely on what I've been told by drivers, and I have to admit that some of them were real BS artists. ;) With that in mind, I think that an issue so complex as driver retention would involve factors that are far more important than how fast drivers are allowed to drive. My neighbor told me that he liked the pay and the benefits, and didn't mind driving at a fixed speed. YMMV, naturally.

[bob p]

Apparently I was not making myself clear: I am not sure of the exact numbers the interviewed trucker used, but I *am* sure of his point, which I feel I was able to convey to you.

This interview was published at the time that the speed limit was changed, so I am sure that no one had governed vehicles to 55mph at that point. It is entirely plausible that trucks have been optimized/speed-governed/folded-spindled-mutilated for 55mph since then. But my daily commute home tells me that, at least where I live, the only thing governing truckers' speeds is police speed-traps and hybrid SUVs. ;)

Mark, when you said your numbers weren't accurate, my post was based upon the premise that you gear numbers and the RPM numbers were guesstimated. For obvious reasons, I assumed that the 55 MPH number was accurate and everything else was estimated. That would make sense, if the driver was complaining after the 55 MPH limit was enacted. If my assumptions were correct, then you were clear enough in getting your point across.

Needless to say, nobody would have had reason to govern their vehicles to 55 mph before the 55 mph speed limit was enacted, and the 55 mph limit was in effect long enough to allow the industry time to accommodate to it if it needed to do so. FWIW the comment that was made by my old neighbor about speed governing by ABF was made 3 years ago. The information could be outdated by now.

[hasserl]

I believe the GPS units are mainly used for dispatch to keep track of where the trucks are. While they may also use them for some monitoring of drivers work habits, I don't know how much. There have been tattle tell devices around for a long time.

My involvement with the industry is in the maintenance end; lubricants, used oil analysis and maintenance programs and practices. Lubricants can have a dramatic effect on fuel mileage, moreso on urban delivery vehicles than long haul trucks. With lower viscosity synthetic oils we can get the same or increased protection with less parasitic losses to pumping drag and windage. On long haul trucks that spend most of their time at one rpm the savings is not as great, but on trucks with a lot of accelration and deceleration we can se savings of 3 to 5 percent, whch is a pretty significant chunk of change when you consider how much a large company spends on fuel. Extended drain intervals is another benefit of the synthetic lubes.

But, driver retention problems are real. And there doesn't appear to be much of a reprieve in sight. Same thing with mechanics, there is a huge shortage of mechanics, not only in the trucking industry but in automotive and very much in off-road construction ad mining equipment. An intelligent young man with a mechanical inclination could do very well as a mechanic. He might work alot of hours, but a six figure income is not out of the realm.

[bob p]

One of my friends is a college educated mechanic with an engineering technology degree who owns his own shop. Its hard work, and he gets dirty, but he does earn a good living. He's had the same problems you mentioned finding mechanics to work in his shop. Even though the job pays well, there's a stigma about "greasemonkeys" in American society, and fewer and fewer college grads want a career in the industry.

You've brought up the topic of used oil analysis, which I've always found interesting as my college degree was in chemistry. What is your opinion on the EPA mandate that the auto manufacturers have to recommend lower viscosity oils in modern engines? My mechanic friend has told me that the EPA pushed for lower viscosity oils because forcing a nation of automobiles to use lower viscosity oils was supposed to provide better fuel economy on a national scale, and less overall emissions. That consideration completely leaves out the value of the added protection that the heavier oil grades can offer under extreme service conditions -- I wouldn't want to be towing a horse trailer with non-synthetic 5W30 in my Suburban. (To simplify the question and to control as many variables as possible, I guess I should ask about replacing non-synthetic 10W40 that was used in the old cars with non-synthetic 5W30 that's used in the new cars. Admittedly, replacing conventional 10W40 with synthetic 5W30 is an apples to oranges comparison.) My personal bias has been to use Mobil 1 (synthetic) 15W50 in my tow vehicle instead of the 5W30 that GM has been mandated by the EPA to recommend across the board. Am I way off base?

[hasserl]

Have no doubts, the move toward lower viscosity oils is all about fuel economy, not increased protection. The benefit of a 5w30 motor oil might not even be noticeable to the average driver, it does help the auto makers achieve their Coporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards. Some like Ford and Honda now recommend 5w20 viscosity grades.

But while the industry has moved toward lower viscosity oils it has also improved the quality of the base oil used, allowing them to get the performance from the lower viscosity. With improved additive performance today's motor oils are far better than previous lubes. But, in the scenario you described above I'd be putting the 10W40 in my Suburban too. Well, I don't have a Suburban any longer, used to years ago. But if I did I'd use the heavier viscosity oil. And if I had one with a diesel engine I would be using one of the commercial grade diesel engine oils with a CJ-4 or even CI-4 license, in 15W40 vis grade. Most auto parts stores now carry them.

It may go against improving fuel economy, but to the average driver you wouldn't save enough to make up the difference for accelerated wear of your engine. In a large fleet, yeah, it makes sense. Especially in combination with extended drains; and we're using synthetic, so performance doesn't suffer.

[bob p]

Thanks. I had been thinking that the higher viscosity synthetics would be more valuable from an engine wear perspective than the minor improvement in fuel economy that the lighter oils might provide.

One thing that I have noticed though, is that the oil pressure does run a bit higher with the synthetic 15W50 than it ran with the 5W30. I honestly don't know if this is significant or not. Someday I guess I might end up needing a new oil pump...