Looking for some 5E3 Literature

[coco]

Any souce for basic documents, explanation on the 5E3? Two pager or something. The original Fender docs would be cool to read!

[jaydawg]

Here's a cool link

http://online.physics.uiuc.edu/courses/phys498pom/Student_Projects/Fall04/James_Milsk_Gabe_Jacome/James_Milsk_Gabe_Jacome_Modified_5E3_Deluxe.pdf

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

FIRST OFF... this is my personal opinion so reader beware, regardless of what my foes may say, I think I know what I'm talking about.

JEEZE LOUISE!
What load of totally unecessary BULLS**T!

I am not a purest by any stretch of the imagination, and love messing with tweaks and mods, but does anyone here for a moment think that a "Weber 5E3" amp kit, with those mods, is going to sound like or better then a real 5E3 or am I just crazy.
Also, has anyone heard all these alleged noise and problem issues that require this much work over?! CHRIST all mighty.
Oh, I forgot, maybe in their defense they have no real world experience but did read it on the Net....
Those very overdrive and tonal "problems" are what makes them so damn poular and I have over 800 of them under my belt to back that up... reading between the lines here I suspect a good case of no ears and pure Crapola prof stroking for a grade.
I'm going out on limb to say this but I have a feeling neither the student or the Prof have much of any any "tone bones" in their collective bodies, especially if they think a VST 5E3 kit, with too many cheap Chinese parts, Chinese trannys, two Chinese 12AX7s, a totally generic sounding Sig Alnico 12, and all these mods sounds as good as a vintage 5E3.

And besides that, even after all these mods, who says the fixed amp sounded good anyhow? The writers?
All those fancy pictures don't mean squat because guess what?... graphs, spectum analyzers, O'Scopes, voltmeters, etc., etc., and all those pictures don't make a single sound or any music at all and are meaningless to making music. If not we'd all be playing through our test gear and looking instead of feeling and hearing!!
I could go on but the fact they state that you shouldn't use a 12AX7 for the first preamp tube, (but do so anyhow by saying the 12AY7s are too hard to find), (etc.) and then don't even mention, or possibley understand, that the 12AX7 has a totally different tone and impedance, thus different idle current draw through the common cathode resistor, through the common B+ rail and their relative plate load resistors.... makes too much of this drivel just plan crap.
A Weber 5E3 kit (with their inexpensive too small (Princeton sized) Chinese OTs, puny filter caps and oversized Chinese Deluxe Reverb PTs, with the wrong Hi-V AC voltages....) (there's a reason why they are so inexpensive folks!!) as compared to an alleged real 5E3, that was in what condition, completely worn out?..... oh my god...
Talk about nonsense... and unbelievable!

Hope he got a good grade with all the bloviation.

[Satamax]

Hey Bruce, i'm no expert, but i think they thought they were working on an hifi amp :D adding a NFB loop on a deluxe :smoke:

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Ha ha.. I know I was being overly dramatic for effect but gads that paper was absurdly over the top for such a stupid simple and elegant little 12w amp.

Bruce

[jaydawg]

Your right. I don't think all those mods are needed, but they go into detail as to whats going in the circut. When I first read it a while back I found it interesting.

[coco]

..and I found the reading interesting, regardless. you always learn something new. thanks

[JimiRayBoneKing]

Bruce just gave me a great idea:
How about "Symphony in B- for Oscilliscope and Voltmeter" with extensive solos for dikes and soldering irons?:eek:
I think anyone here would like to make $4k to put together a 5E3! Heck, I'd even take the builders fee for $2.5k

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Not coming down on you coco...
It's very good to be interested in reading everything you can about this hobby!
Just keep in mind that many writers are frequently full of BS, or in my case, can be! ha ha..
Bruce

[jaydawg]

Bruce, have you ever thought about writing something for the public about our beloved 5e3? You've always provided very insightful post and it seams like the DIY community has been very supportive of you. Something like a break down stage by stage with your own insights injected as you fit?

jason

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Yes I have as a matter of fact.
My "silent" partner with many other projects here at Mission Amps, Randy Linenberger is an electro-mechanical engineer and tech writer.
For over a year or so he's bugging the hell out of me to get off my ass and write a real honest to God "how to" tweed booklet for the all the 5E3 kits, including my competition's stuff... which real isn't much as they are so easy, just about anyone can do it.
Problem is I'm very left brained and would rather play then work....:help:

[hasserl]

I agree Bruce, what a bunch of bovine defecation. It reminds me of the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". However, it was written in 2004, I don't believe it has anything to do with Weber amp kits.

This is the first time I've seen you blast Weber kits so harshly, I'm a little surprised.

[sbluestubes]

Now we know what happened to the CBS era engineers after they left Fender.

[stevlech]

This paper reminds me of my tube amp mentor who likes to say "Don't try to outsmart Leo". The part I enjoy most is that the writer says the circuit sounds "more interesting" w/o his feedback mod. I know I like my amps to sound worse after I mod them!:D

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

I agree Bruce, what a bunch of bovine defecation. It reminds me of the saying "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". However, it was written in 2004, I don't believe it has anything to do with Weber amp kits.

This is the first time I've seen you blast Weber kits so harshly, I'm a little surprised.

Ha ha... I was trying to be overly dramatic to stress a point.
All of the below is my opinon...

It wasn't an article about the actual kit but they did use a WVST kit, which uses some components that are not the same values as the real 5E3 used.
I think their point was that they felt the 5E3 has problems and their kit amp didn't sound the way "they" wanted it to and their tone suffered.
Therefore I assumed they felt that they were going to fix the kit amp... but "fixed" the very things that are so endearing to a 5E3 in the first place.

So "fixed" is pretty subjective, don't you think?

Now, I've repaired a handful VST kits for builders who were having trouble with them and they might be different now.
The last VST 5E3 I did was at least a couple months ago, but the ones I've seen were different then a real 5E3 and IMHO, had some incorrect (in actual electrical parameters) components, such as the power tranny, small Princeton Reverb sized OT and choice of tubes used (12AX7 vs the required 12AY7).
The writers of that article didn't even want to change the critical tube error!!
I felt many of the article's negative complaints about the 5E3 in general are the very heart and soul of the amp which arguably, made it one of the most fun, copied and sought after amps ever.

Truth:
all the test equipment in the world is NO replacement for that "master test" device between your two ear holes.:p
I understand that this was written by a student for a grade point but in my mind their taste in tone is questionable too and maybe they didn;t really want a 5E3 anyow.
A single channel BF Princeton would have been a better amp to start with.

I guess the main things to take from this is that before the tweaking even started I don't think it was a very good test comparison because;
1.) they were trying to fix somethings that are not broken as those things are the very essence of the 5E3 amp tone,
2.) their "fixed" amp isn't really a 5E3 anymore and,
3.) the VST 5E3 has some component choice issues anyhow.
As with all things written on the Net, most all are opinions and just because somebody says so, doesn't make it true or correct and that goes for me too.;)

[Joe6v6]

I wonder if Neil Young & Billy Gibbons would consider bringing their 5E3's to the profesor to be modded? . . . I thought it was intresting that in the end it took their "Engineeres" a hundred & sixty hours of labor to assemble the kit. I know that included the testing but Damm thats a long time to build a 5e3.

[hasserl]

Well put Bruce.

"I felt many of the article's negative complaints about the 5E3 in general are the very heart and soul of the amp which arguably, made it one of the most fun, copied and sought after amps ever."

Right on!

[Chris / CMW amps]

Imagine reading that article while hearing Neil Young on the radio....

It just happend over here.:fishing:

Imagine it will be the only written article about 5E3s to be found after WW III........

No more rock 'n roll for eons.:compress:

Can't such guys just buy a Roland Jazz Chorus for God sake :rolleyes:

Wish I could find a 12AY7 LOL :D LOL

Back to distorted overdriven sounds!

[Brad1]

Bruce,

Zuzu just bought a nice Taylor acoustic and we ran it through his 5E3. It didn't have the frequency response we needed, so we modified the amp according to the nice student's recommendations to get rid of the uneven nidrange, and extend the high end. What gives? The highs still aren't coming out! Could that have something to do with the speaker? Do we need to add a tweeter? Could we just set a horn on top?
Can we add about a dozen switches that switch between original values and modified values (or one giant multi-switch) that will make it turn from it's original blues tone into a hi-fi machine? Do we have to reverse all this? I'm sorry we wasted all that time, if this isn't going to work.
Golly, I thought we were on to something!:fishing:

Brad1

PS....just kidding:D

[Round Midnight]

"JEEZE LOUISE!
What load of totally unecessary BULLS**T!"

I love it. I stumbled over this paper at the Weber site a week or two ago and being a PE decided to see how my fellows drinking at the "trough of the fountain of sacred knowledge" would handle the glaring defects manifest in the 5E3.

I was not dissapointed. What honest engineer could resist eliminating the tube amp entirely? What could sound better than a Strat or an LP or an ES-335 uncorrupted by tubes, all forms of distortion and the horror of non-linear frequency response?

I could nit-pick, but I won't. I enjoyed the article in a semi-perverse sort of way but not nearly as much as I enjoy playing my Mission 5E3.

Bruce - May the wind be at your back, may you live long and prosper, may you keep pounding those drums.

Keep the beads, baby,

RM