Fender Wide Range Humbucker patent [Archive]

DrStrangelove

12-31-2007, 11:36 PM

Can't find the patent on this one.

Seth Lover is said to have designed it for Fender for use on 1971-79 Thinline Telecaster and Starcaster (Coronado?) hollow bodies.

Some sources say the pickups differed from the Lover PAF in that
they used Cunife for the pole magnets, and were somewhat
underwound at 6800 winds total.

Cunife I's numbers suggest a slightly undercharged Alnico II
save that it was much easier to machine.

Does anyone have a patent number?
I'm guessing it would be between 1968 and 1974.

-drh

Old Tele man

01-01-2008, 01:05 AM

...I did a GOOGLE PATENT search on Seth Lover+Fender+CuNiFe and didn't find anything, but that was a couple years ago.

...FWIW, CuNiFe materials are *still* around and in use, predominately as core slugs in Linear Velocity Transducers.

Joe Gwinn

01-01-2008, 01:17 AM

...I did a GOOGLE PATENT search on Seth Lover+Fender+CuNiFe and didn't find anything, but that was a couple years ago.Be aware that Google Patent runs on scanned OCR-converted images, yielding searchable text that is rife with errors, making keyword search chancy. Try more smaller searches, to reduce the impact of OCR garbles.

Possum

01-01-2008, 03:01 AM

buy a real one and take it apart. I had one on a tele when I was a kid, I hated that thing.....

DrStrangelove

01-01-2008, 06:03 AM

buy a real one and take it apart. I had one on a tele when I was a kid, I hated that thing.....
We're building a pickup patents table over at
http://www.pickupedia.info/index.php/Patents

I'm trying to get the table filled out,
so I don't need the actual pup structure bits right yet.

-drh
--

Possum

01-01-2008, 06:56 AM

why don't you have a photo gallery of pickup pix there as well. I look forever trying to find a P13 photo of the guts, none on the web.

DrStrangelove

01-01-2008, 04:13 PM

why don't you have a photo gallery of pickup pix there as well. I look forever trying to find a P13 photo of the guts, none on the web.

You expect a f*ck of a lot from a project that started five days ago.:D

And yes, a list of pickups with images and maybe drawings of the
internals of basic pickup types is essential, but where do we get
drawings that are not copyrighted? Go begging hat in hand to
Duncan, DiMarzio,etc?

Any suggestions are welcome.

Submissions would be even better.

-drh

Old Tele man

01-01-2008, 04:57 PM

...I'm going to go out on a limb and say that "maybe" CBS-Fender didn't actually patent the Fender/Seth Lover "Wide-Range Humbucker Pickup" for three possible reasons: (A) it was designed by Seth Lover who had also designed the original HB for Gibson, (B) it was only a 'utility' design-change (location of adjusting screws), and (C) the use of CuNiFe wasn't considered unique enough(?)

...I'm just guessing here, because I've searched and found nothing.

David Schwab

01-01-2008, 11:22 PM

Lover's original patent covers split coil humbuckers like this. Fender got around the patent when making the P bass pickup, by getting their own patent on a split coil pickup with unequal size coils.

So maybe it was Lover's original patent.

Old Tele man

01-01-2008, 11:30 PM

So maybe it was Lover's original patent....could be, but I doubt it since he (Seth Lover) assigned all rights to Gibson...and I seriously doubt CBS-Fender would "rent" manufacturing rights.

Joe Gwinn

01-01-2008, 11:36 PM

And yes, a list of pickups with images and maybe drawings of the internals of basic pickup types is essential, but where do we get drawings that are not copyrighted? Go begging hat in hand to
Duncan, DiMarzio,etc?The cleanest solution is to make one's own drawings, and copyright them for good measure. The copyright owner can then choose to publish the work on the web. Copyright protects the expression, not the idea. Unlike patents.

David Schwab

01-02-2008, 12:25 AM

...could be, but I doubt it since he (Seth Lover) assigned all rights to Gibson...and I seriously doubt CBS-Fender would "rent" manufacturing rights.

True.

Were the Wide Range pickups ever patented?

Maybe it's this one then? 3177283

Old Tele man

01-02-2008, 02:10 AM

...couldn't be #3177283 because it's Leo Fender-era and was submitted in 1961, and Seth Lover was later, during the CBS-era...mid-late 1960's.

...it's an interesting design though, having the tone control only on the treble two strings!

madialex

01-02-2008, 05:18 PM

DrStrangelove

01-02-2008, 06:34 PM

Am I missing something or is the Patent web site messed up. For about 2 weeks I cant get any text or Pictures to come up, the page loads with the next page, previous page arrow things and tells how many pages but no visible text or pics?????If you mean the US Patent office, then you may need to tweak your browser
plug-in configuration to use QuickTime to read the USPTO .tiff images.

I can't get anything to happen under Linux and have resorted to
downloading .pdf files from PAT2PDF.ORG

Can someone else help here?
I don't use Internet Explorer.

-drh

Dave Kerr

01-02-2008, 07:15 PM

Even with the QT plugins in IE, the USPTO image downloads are a POS. Google or pat2pdf are much clearer to read, though I haven't found a good way to pass a known patent number to either site in the wiki. Might it make sense to download the pdf files and upload to tboy's image hosting area, and link to there frmo the wiki? Pat2pdf does permit multiple downloads, and it'd be easy enough to extract the patent numbers from the table.

DrStrangelove

01-02-2008, 08:10 PM

Even with the QT plugins in IE, the USPTO image downloads are a POS.

By editing the QT files config, I got QuickTime to handle USPTO .tiff images
under Firefox and Opera 9.25
Google looks no better, no worse than the USPTO.

Google or pat2pdf are much clearer to read, though I haven't found a good way to pass a known patent number to either site in the wiki.
The google search link won't go directly to the patent but to a link.

For instance, for the Charlie Christian pickup patent, the search string
patent:2087106 generates this URL:

http://www.google.com/patents?q=patent%3A2087106

Then, you click on the link it provides and arrive at the patent document.

Might it make sense to download the pdf files and upload to tboy's image hosting area, and link to there frmo the wiki? Pat2pdf does permit multiple downloads, and it'd be easy enough to extract the patent numbers from the table. I don't know if it is legal to republish USPTO patent PDF files.
Even though the patents are already paid for with public monies, the copy
distribution may have may have bullshit encumberances.

-drh

jonson

01-02-2008, 11:20 PM

Dear Mr Jackbooted Thug Moderator Strangelove(must know Spence) Dan "Sir".
Bit like a few others here and don't reckon your gonna find this one.
About 2 years ago on a sicky I had 2 weeks with sweet FA to do bar play online and searched guitar related patents, the usuall way start with a few and search the cited references etc etc. Ended up with a database of about 700 pdfs covering bodies, necks, trems, bridges, pickups and complete guitars. Even searched pat no's off parts and even decals. Theres a guy over here makes copy decals and must just make up his no's as there is a few copy strats in this world with the pat no's for a horse sunbonnet, a mechanical device for stopping a railcar and an elecrical machine for finding the centre of gravity on an aeroplane.(sounds about right to me.)
Lots of pickup pats but never the one you want and I did(nerd) search at one point for 2 days just by knocking up a digit at a time and god is there some shit out there with a patent on it.
If this one is there then it's gonna be found by accident or a reference from something different but all keep looking and one day well someone may strike lucky.

Spence

01-03-2008, 12:07 AM

Jonson, I know you said you were just hanging around waiting to die but you really should do something more interesting. That reminds me, the new year is here and I'll be doing a drawing for that burr walnut roof console for my old '65 Land Rover. That'll keep you busy for a bit.....

jonson

01-03-2008, 12:45 AM

not a problem dear. I'm back on me feet again but still hurtin but have made my show deadline so bring it on.

DrStrangelove

01-03-2008, 01:42 AM

Dear Mr Jackbooted Thug Moderator Strangelove (must know Spence) Dan "Sir". Uhhhh ... right. First, it gots nuthin ta do with sheeps.
The Nazi's would dismiss someone as 'Strangelove' (Merkwurtigliebe)
in the way post-McCarthyites would call someone a commie-pinko-faggot.

Second: If you call me an asshole, then you lose credibility.
No less a great emminence than Jason Lollar endorsed me one day
with the words, "Don't worry, he's not an asshole."

We have standards here. Your moderator does not shagg sheep
and has been authoritatively declared "not an asshole".

So, that's Mr. not-an-asshole to you, sir.

... Ended up with a database of about 700 pdfs covering bodies, necks, trems, bridges, pickups and complete guitars. Even searched pat no's off parts and even decals.
...
If this one is there then it's gonna be found by accident or a reference from something different but all keep looking and one day well someone may strike lucky.

*sigh*

I was getting that impression.

Well, whenever I see a likely patent, I'm poking it into the Pickupedia.
It probably won't be useful for a another month, anyway.

Thanks, Jonson.

-drh

jonson

01-03-2008, 09:12 PM

Ok Mr Not an Arsehole Sir. Not that I would ever call you that. anymore than I would ever liked to be called An Arsehole. I resemble remarks like that so wouldn't use them to others. I also know you don't shag sheeps anymore than we do in the UK. Spence only pretends to and I wouldn't for other reasons. We in the UK love animals! "Sorry rephrase that" Like animals so dont mistreat them. I certainly wouldn't strike up a relationship with a sheep as I like to go to much hotter climates for the summer and leaving a sheep wondering where iv'e gone would be wrong. And down in the desserts we only have camels and goats so and dont do much with them either. It's all really a good laugh and best we just talk about pickups and patents before the rest of the world think we are just perverts.

Hey Spence if you get some spare time in the summer, hop on a kite and come down and see me.(some of them goats is real pretty with blue eyes.)

David Schwab

01-04-2008, 02:33 AM

OK.. I'll ask again... is the Wide Range patented? Maybe we can't find a patent because it doesn't have one? If it does, it will be written on the pickup somewhere.

Possum

01-04-2008, 02:55 AM

Whats the big deal about finding the patent, all it is , is a humbucker with magnet pole pieces and probably wound lower DCR maybe. Surely someone here has fixed one at one time or another. Duplicating one is going to be somewhat impossible to find cunife threaded machined magnets eh? If you really are dying to know then find one and buy it. I just spent alot of money on a P13 pickup and there ain't no patent for that thing. Those Seth Lover fender pickups are real boring anyway. another way to reproduce would be just use alnico rods. the only question is whats in the bobbin holes that are covered over? slugs or magnet pieces

Possum

01-04-2008, 02:57 AM

Possum

01-04-2008, 03:05 AM

so the big question is are those slug looking things actually slugs or magnets made of cunife?

madialex

01-04-2008, 03:49 AM

dig out your check book,
http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Fender-Humbucker-Tele-Genuine-70s-Pickup_W0QQitemZ200077723103QQihZ010QQcategoryZ33039QQrd Z1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m118

Great photos here and DCR too!

I wish him all the luck trying to sell the dam thing without the original cover. Why does he think it's so valuable, without the original cover it is shit IMHO. Does he really think someone would use it with the black tape covering the little prongs the coil ends are soldered to.?????

I rewound one of those nightmares a long time ago, yes the slugs are magnetic as well as the screws, not sure if it intended to be or not though... The bobbins are thin plastic and wont handle a lot of tension at all from what I remember and getting those tabs back in is a bitch in itself........... I wouldn't rewind another one if they gave it to me and gave me 100 bucks to do it......

Take notice of the slight stagger on the slugs

Old Tele man

01-04-2008, 04:14 AM

...since there's no magnet bar, the slugs are threaded, magnetized, CuNiFe cores, just like the Fender Telecaster book says they are.

Berman

01-04-2008, 01:42 PM

DrStrangelove

01-04-2008, 02:05 PM

The 'slugs' seen are the ends of the magnetscrews fitted from the bottomplate. So the slight stagger is made by not fastening the screw too much.

Thanks, Hermann.

please exercuse my bad english, it is not my native langauge. :)
No worries. Your english is fine. Stay well.

-drh

David Schwab

01-04-2008, 04:26 PM

Oh I see what's going on... one half of the threaded magnets are put in upside down so the adjustment screw head is under the pickup, so it looks like slugs from the top.

I always thought these pickups had split coils like a P bass... that's why I put up Fender's old split pickup patent.

I don't see much point in doing the poles this way.

madialex

01-04-2008, 09:26 PM

Hi everybody
I'm regulary a 'only' reader on this forum, but I've noticed on the Ebay-photos that there are no slugs on the Fender humbucker. The 'slugs' seen are the ends of the magnetscrews fitted from the bottomplate. So the slight stagger is made by not fastening the screw too much.

Just my 1% on this theme.

Hermann

PS please exercuse my bad english, it is not my native langauge. :)

AHHH, I see now, Thanks for pointing that out. Just goes to show how easy it is to miss a lot of detail with just a first look....... Wonder how many people are in jail on someones eyewitness acounts:eek:

Old Tele man

08-27-2008, 12:13 AM

...has anyone recently been playing with the idea of "recreating" the old WRHB's using CuNiFe cores as sold and used in Variable Reluctance (LVDT) positioners?

...believe it or not, but the CuNiFe "cores" are available in different diameters and lengths from Trans-Tek, Inc., Ellington, CT.

RedHouse

08-27-2008, 04:38 AM

Old Tele man

08-28-2008, 12:53 AM

...try this: http://www.transtekinc.com/index.php?id=97&searched=Cunife&highlight=AS_ajax_highlight+AS_ajax_highlight1

David Schwab

08-28-2008, 04:40 AM

But those are entire Linear Velocity Transducers, not magnet cores for sale.

Old Tele man

08-28-2008, 10:48 PM

...but, bare CuNiFe cores (of varying diameter and lengths) are available from Trans-Terk under the name "replacement magnets."

...you can contact Mr. Paul V. Mondazzi, phone: 860-872-8351, for more information about their Series 100 Linear Velocity Transducers (pages 62-64 of their catalog).

...Models having P/N's ending in -0001 are the ones with CuNiFe cores and, thus, also CuNiFe "replacement magnets."

DISCLAIMER--I have no affiliation with Trans-Tek or Mr. Mondazzi, just someone who works with LVDTs.

David Schwab

08-29-2008, 06:41 AM

Cool! That can come in handy. Thanks for the info.

Cunife magnets seem to be somewhere between Alnico 2 and 5.

Old Tele man

09-05-2008, 06:18 PM

Cool! That can come in handy. Thanks for the info.

Cunife magnets seem to be somewhere between Alnico 2 and 5.

...if you're interested, you might try contacting them to get an "engineering" sample or two to '...play with...'

...and, if you do, be sure to let us all know how they work & sound, because I, for one, am actually in-the-market for a replacement/substitute WRHB for a new guitar I want to build.

...Seymour-Duncan, at one time, was selling a look-alike "split-three" HB model, but it seems to have been discontinued.

David Schwab

09-05-2008, 06:47 PM

...if you're interested, you might try contacting them to get an "engineering" sample or two to '...play with...'

...and, if you do, be sure to let us all know how they work & sound, because I, for one, am actually in-the-market for a replacement/substitute WRHB for a new guitar I want to build.

I currently have no use for them, but if I ever do I'll try them.

...Seymour-Duncan, at one time, was selling a look-alike "split-three" HB model, but it seems to have been discontinued.

Still makes it:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/custom-shop/humbuckers/3_3_bar_humbuck/

And the alnico rod version

http://www.seymourduncan.com/products/custom-shop/humbuckers/rod_magnet_33_h/

Old Tele man

09-05-2008, 06:56 PM

David Schwab

09-05-2008, 07:06 PM

...thanks for the SD info! Apparently, I wasn't looking in the right places!?!? Wonder how they compare with the original WRHBs sound-wise? I'm guessing, they're closer to Gibson HB's than the original CuNiFe WRHBs.

He seems to say they sound like single coils.

...was just visiting your website, and noticed your Neo bass pups...are neodymium magnets the "next big/best thing..."? They're getting lots of "verbal"-milage with the speaker people.

They are getting popular with bass pickup makers. One has been around for a while now, Q-Tuner. Bass pickups work well with stronger magnets, like ceramics. I started using neos when I was designing a mini humbucker size bass pickup, and wasn't getting what I wanted out of the ceramics, due to the size constraints.

They have an interesting tone. Brighter than alnico, but fatter than ceramics. And kind of a textured "grainy" midrange. You have to be careful though because they are so strong, and you can easily over saturate your core, or yank the strings down!

I haven't tried them with guitar pickups yet, but it's on my "to do" list.