Multiple Magnet Pickups

[shef86]

Hey everyone

I'm a beginner with pick up design, and I'm interested in tweaking my current pick up set up (or any new pickups), as opposed to learning how to build them from scratch.

My idea is to mix magnets to come up with an original humbucker tone. It is my understanding that most pick ups have only one magnet, with some exceptions. I would like to mix an alnico II magnet with a ceramic.

So theres multiple questions that come with this idea
is it possible?
will it enhance string pull?

If this could work then...
what sizes do I need
should I use two magnets or three?
Where can I have these magnets made (and good quality)

Thanks everyone!

[David Schwab]

There have been humbuckers with more than one magnet, but they were basically extensions of the main magnet... just to give it more of a boost.

The Gibson Tony Iommi Signature Pickups use more than one bar magnet. I think they use three, and two are on top each other, with a third smaller magnet on top of the bobbins.

Anything is possible.

[Spence]

The 500T has three magnets, all ceramic. The spacers are magnets too.

[SteikBacon]

Hey everyone

I'm a beginner with pick up design, and I'm interested in tweaking my current pick up set up (or any new pickups), as opposed to learning how to build them from scratch.

My idea is to mix magnets to come up with an original humbucker tone. It is my understanding that most pick ups have only one magnet, with some exceptions. I would like to mix an alnico II magnet with a ceramic.

So theres multiple questions that come with this idea
is it possible?
will it enhance string pull?

If this could work then...
what sizes do I need
should I use two magnets or three?
Where can I have these magnets made (and good quality)

Thanks everyone!
Here is what got me starting... http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22538&page=1&highlight=evh

[shef86]

Thanks for the help so far

it's funny because the pickup I want to work on is the 500t, and I knew it had multiple magnets but wasn't sure how many. I guess I'll email gibson and ask how large they are, and maybe I can stick an alnico II between the two ceramics.

It's a great sounding pick up but lacks some warmth, being ceramic. I love the sensitivity of the ceramics though, and they tend to have more character than the emgs (in my experience).

[Spence]

The alnico magnet will be too thin compared to the ceramic magnet and will need a shim under it. Gibson will tell you not to mess with things etc...

[shef86]

Is it feasible to have a magnet custom made so it's the same size as the other two?

[David Schwab]

Here is what got me starting... http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22538&page=1&highlight=evh

You have to take everything you read on the internet with a grain of salt. Or more specifically look at who's saying it. If Seymour was posting there, that would have been one thing, but the guy who started that post said the following:

The problem when you overwind a PAF style 42 guage wire pickup(59 Model, Seth, EVH, etc.) is that it starts getting garbled sounding above about 9k just as MJ has informed you...

To achieve a more beefy tone and retain clarity, you need to step to a thinner wire and wind more turns... ala the Custom models which use 43 guage wire coils wound to just above 14k which is the optimal range for tone with that wire...

The next step is the JB & Distortion which are wound up to about 16k with 44 gauge wire which is the optimal range for THAT wire.

The part he's missing is you really can't get that much 42 wire on a standard humbucker bobbin. Once you get past PAF specs, it starts getting tight.

This is the real reason why they use 43 and 44 gauge wire on hot pickups. It takes up less room so you can get more wire on the coil. It does sound different, but that's not why it was used. It was the only way to get more wire on those bobbins.

Also look at the average P-90... that's a lot of 42 AWG wire on there.

The real thing about that past is he's making a mismatched humbucker. DiMarzio had a patent on that, which just ran out, and was the basis of the Tone Zone and others.

[Possum]

Makes you wonder also that why they like it so much is because they did it themselves, or does it really sound that good (the duncan hybrid thing). When you do something yourself its kinda hard to say it sucks :-) I didn't see anyone posting sound samples. thats cool the DM patent ran out, I'm sure alot of pickup makers have been doing stuff like that all along, just not saying much about it, its kind of a stupid patent anyway, way too vague..

[David Schwab]

A friend of mine did a Duncan hybrid like that years ago, but it was just because he had two broken pickups. I don't remember which two pickups he used. He claims it was one of the best pickups he ever had.

[Peter Naglitsch]

The part he's missing is you really can't get that much 42 wire on a standard humbucker bobbin. Once you get past PAF specs, it starts getting tight.
David, I *think* he means 9K for both coils in series. And that is far from impossible.

[Spence]

Is it feasible to have a magnet custom made so it's the same size as the other two?

They wouldn't just make you the one magnet. There would be a minimum order quantity so unless you're planning to take over the world with pickup conversions it's not going to be economical.

[Sweetfinger]

I like where the original poster claimed that the coils weren't actually that unbalanced, because it was the AMOUNT of copper on the coils that mattered, and the amount was about the same on the two dissimilar coils. When subsequent posters mentioned elevated hum levels, the poster tells them that it is probably grounding, or wiring issues.....it just COULDN'T be the extra 3K of winds on that coil!

I've been doing that kind of stuff for twenty years: taking apart pickups and trying them with different magnets, or piecing together humbuckers from others with bad coils. Sometimes you get a winner, sometimes it just sounds like a slightly noisy humbucker, but that's how you get to know the qualities that different magnet types will impart to a pickup......and coil phase, and that many 'accurate' PAFs aren't accurate enough to have interchangeable parts.

[shef86]

I like how theres dual topics going on here... :D

So basically I can use an Alnico II but I'll need a shim. Like I said, im very new, so how would I go about getting the right size shim?

Sounds like this is a little more complicated than I first thought, I might just give up on it and accept the pick up for what it is.

[David Schwab]

David, I *think* he means 9K for both coils in series. And that is far from impossible.

Oh I know that, but he's saying past 9K and talked about 14K for the 43 AWG.

Of course 14K on 43 AWG will be less turns than 14K with 42, so he's still not saying anything worthwhile. I wound a bass pickup with 4000 turns of 45 AWG on each coil and the total resistance was 13.78K! The same pickup wound with 42 was 7.33K.

5,000 turns of 42 on a 'bucker bobbin gets me at 3.87K for that coil, 7.93K total. 9K on the same bobbin using 42 AWG would be about 5,921 turns per coil(11,842 total). I can't get much past 5,000 turns of 42 AWG on a standard size 'bucker bobbin without the wire bulging out the sides. Not that I wind many guitar pickups, but I tried it and at about 5,300 (I think it was about that much) it was too much wire to fit on the bobbin. I sure can't wind almost 6,000 turns of 42 on a standard PAF style bobbin.

Maybe someone else here can... but how much are your stretching the wire? :D

[Peter Naglitsch]

I've managed to get 8000 turns of 42 onto a GJ bobbin. 15.2K! Don't think I stretched the wire much. I take great care to avoid that.

[Spence]

I like how theres dual topics going on here... :D

So basically I can use an Alnico II but I'll need a shim. Like I said, im very new, so how would I go about getting the right size shim?

Sounds like this is a little more complicated than I first thought, I might just give up on it and accept the pick up for what it is.

Don't give up. You can try using lollipop sticks for size. You can always sand them down a bit.

[kevinT]

I've managed to get 8000 turns of 42 onto a GJ bobbin. 15.2K! Don't think I stretched the wire much. I take great care to avoid that.


8000 turns of 42 on one bobbin :rolleyes:....I don't mean to be a skeptic. Do you have a CNC winder and a tensioner?

This would be hard to do hand guiding.

[shef86]

Will sanding the magnet cause any demagnification?

[David Schwab]

Will sanding the magnet cause any demagnification?

Not unless you get it hot enough to reach the currie point. Then it will lose it's charge.

[shef86]

Alright, so I've decided to order some A8s and A2s from this website:

http://www.shop.wymoreguitars.com/category.sc?categoryId=29

One more question though:

will stacking the A8 and A2 demagnitize the A2 because it is much weaker? Is there an issue of demagnification of any of the magnets (except the ceramic) that I should be worrying about?

[David King]

There's a good possibility of the A2 getting demagnetized if you aren't careful. Don't let them touch until you're to assemble everything.

[shef86]

Yeah, I'm curious how they'll be shipped to prevent them from interacting.

When I put them in the pick up together, wouldn't the A2 become demagnitized? Also, how do I know the right orientation of the magnets?

I may just stick with A8s since it seems like it's hard to demagnitize these...

[SK66]

I make humbuckers with mixed magnet arrangements(alnico/ceramic)...
I'm not sure how you intend to get 2 "standard" bar magnets under there without them touching. You could only stack them. You'll have to stack them with like poles together (they won't like that) and the ceramic will eventually soften the alnico in that kind of arrangement.
You could cut the bars and place them side by side as a single "larger" magnet, but that's likely pointless....cutting ceramic is damn near impossible.

[kevinT]

I make humbuckers with mixed magnet arrangements(alnico/ceramic)...
I'm not sure how you intend to get 2 "standard" bar magnets under there without them touching. You could only stack them. You'll have to stack them with like poles together (they won't like that) and the ceramic will eventually soften the alnico in that kind of arrangement.
You could cut the bars and place them side by side as a single "larger" magnet, but that's likely pointless....cutting ceramic is damn near impossible.

Do you sell the smaller flanking mags in Alnico or Ceramic for multi-mag buckers?

Does anyone know if Allstar or Magnetic Hold sells them....I thought that i would ask here before I ask them. What about the taller ceramic mags that GJ sells. Does anyone know whether AM or MH sells them.

[SK66]

Do you sell the smaller flanking mags in Alnico or Ceramic for multi-mag buckers?

Does anyone know if Allstar or Magnetic Hold sells them....I thought that i would ask here before I ask them. What about the taller ceramic mags that GJ sells. Does anyone know whether AM or MH sells them.

I have 1/4x1/4 bars I sell upon special request.

[shef86]

I need to open up my 500t and see how they're "stacking" the three ceramic mags, and if it just adds up to be a standard size magnet, I'll probably just stick and A8 in there and see how it sounds.

As for placing them in there, I intended on stacking them, and doing some sanding if needed. But then I read a thread on here about A8s demagnifying A2s if you place them together in that configuration...and alnicos getting unmagnified in general around stronger magnets.

...So yeah, I'm just confused about that, I'll be opening up my 500t today and taking a look...

[SK66]

Any very strong magnet will degauss a weaker alnico when placed like poles together. BTW, A8 is basically the same as ceramic (C8) as far as strength which is why C8 is usually used (cheaper). Now, magnet size and arrangement also makes a difference, so just a swap to a smaller grade 8 magnet may make a difference.

[David Schwab]

I need to open up my 500t and see how they're "stacking" the three ceramic mags

It's usually the center magnet, as in a regular 1 magnet humbucker, and then two smaller flanking magnets on the outsides of the poles.

[John_H]

It's usually the center magnet, as in a regular 1 magnet humbucker, and then two smaller flanking magnets on the outsides of the poles.

I rewound an older probably 80's Schaller that was configured like that. It didn't impress me, but the owner liked it. The magnets were thinner than most ceramics.

[Ruel]

I like how theres dual topics going on here... :D

So basically I can use an Alnico II but I'll need a shim. Like I said, im very new, so how would I go about getting the right size shim?

Sounds like this is a little more complicated than I first thought, I might just give up on it and accept the pick up for what it is.

Well, you will have to find a shim that will make the alnico bar magnet the same height as the ceramic. You can make one yourself using plastic or wood.