Some questions about vintage tele pickups

[corduroyew]

I’ve never been all that interested in Tele pickups, but I found some contradicting information and I wanted to find out who was correct.

According to Seymour Duncan the early Tele and Broadcaster pickups used formvar wire. According to the book Pickups, Windings and Magnets: ... And the Guitar Became Electric Tele pickups used PE wire from day one. Who is right?

Also, According to the book, for the first few months the pickups had larger diameter magnets. Then after about 6 months they went to smaller diameter magnets. Eventually when CBS took over they went to even smaller diameter magnets. They also go on to say that one of the changes between the original strat pickups and the Tele pickups were that the strat had "smaller diameter magnets" so I'm wondering. What was the actual diameter of the magnets over the years?

[David Schwab]

I don't have an answer.. but I think Duncan knows what he's talking about. He's actually rewound the things.

[GlennW]

From SK's old site (I printed it, and hope he doesn't object to me putting it here):

Tele Bridge
50-51 43 PE 8000 CCW 8.0 A5 North
51-64 42 PE 9200 CCW 7.5 A5 South
60s/70s 42 PE/Poly 7800 CCW 6.4 A5 South
Zinc plated steel basewplate until early '51, then copper plated steel (.05" thick)

[corduroyew]

I don't have an answer.. but I think Duncan knows what he's talking about. He's actually rewound the things.

That was my thought too, but everything I find elswhere seems to disagree. I don't suppose anybody here has any direct experiance with them?

[Magnetosaure]

If that can help, my 1951 Fender Lap Steel pickup is made using Plain Enamel... It's basically the same pickup as a Tele but without any baseplate.

[Sam Lee Guy]

Yes Seymour Duncan know what he talk about, but this a mistake. Early Tele pickup PE. Magnet size all over the place, not bigger than early Strat. Generally, magnet diameter 5.0mm average 1950-51, 4.9mm average till 1955,4.75- 4.8 avarage till 1964, then all 4.7mm but velly large tolerance on magnet diameter until 1964.

[corduroyew]

Yes Seymour Duncan know what he talk about, but this a mistake. Early Tele pickup PE. Magnet size all over the place, not bigger than early Strat. Generally, magnet diameter 5.0mm average 1950-51, 4.9mm average till 1955,4.75- 4.8 avarage till 1964, then all 4.7mm but velly large tolerance on magnet diameter until 1964.

Thanks for the help. I had copied the information of Seymours site about 3 years ago. I went back to find it after I made this thread and couldn't find it anymore so I'm guessing that bit of info has been removed changed. Clears up some confusion.

Have tele pickups always been made with PE then? Well... untill they started using poly anyway.

[soundmasterg]

Possum knows a bunch about these but maybe he's not into divulging his hard won knowledge, or just busy, or sleeping? :)

For my money, the early Broadcasters are the shit, and Possum nails those quite well. I get to hear a '51 nocaster on a regular basis and if I could have one guitar, that would be in the running for sure.

Greg

[Peter Naglitsch]

In the book "the Fender Telecaster, The detailed story of americas senior solid body electric guitar" bu A R Duchossoir (a very very detailed description of the Tele) it is stated that up until early 1950 even the bridge pup was wound with awg 43 PE with up to 10 000 turns. Have anyone encountered a Tele neck pup with awg 43 wire? And that many turns?

And the book states that Fender switched to Polysol in late 60's. Then PE again on vintage reissues and standard pups from the 80's and up to the date the book was published. As the rest of the book is very accurate I would put a bit of trust in hose facts. Duchossoir has really done some digging to come up with reliable information.

[David Schwab]

Have anyone encountered a Tele neck pup with awg 43 wire? And that many turns?

It was my understanding that they are still wound with 43.

[Sam Lee Guy]

Sam never see Tele pickup before 1980 with polysol wire, always PE with very rare exception of Formvar or polyester. Most 1950-51 43 PE up to over 12,000 turns and low as 9,000. 10,000 probably average for back pickup. Early magnet vary in type too - some Cobalt Steel , some Alnico. Find Blackguard book from JK Lutherie for good info!

[Possum]

I think Fender was using alot of different materials all at the same time. I rewound and still have in my posession a '51 Nocaster bridge, it was wound with 42 gauge wire and had A5 magnets, supposedly this pickup doesn't exist :-) but it does. Early pickup had thin formvar on the bottom and top as this one does, this makes a really unstable build and probably around '52 they went to thick formvar on the bottom. I think there is some evidence that 42 was also used on the neck once in a while as well.
I paid Greg to say all that but he forgot to put the Paypal BuyItNow button in the text so I want my money back!

[David Schwab]

Early pickup had thin formvar on the bottom...

Of course you meant to say forbon. :)

[Peter Naglitsch]

It was my understanding that they are still wound with 43.

Bridge, type-o

And as Possum said I have also hear about the agw 42 neck pickup, but there are not that many early Teles surfacing here in Sweden so I have very little first hand info on those.

Blackguard...have to find that book, thanx Sam

[Sam Lee Guy]

I think Fender was using alot of different materials all at the same time. I rewound and still have in my posession a '51 Nocaster bridge, it was wound with 42 gauge wire and had A5 magnets, supposedly this pickup doesn't exist :-) but it does. Early pickup had thin formvar on the bottom and top as this one does, this makes a really unstable build and probably around '52 they went to thick formvar on the bottom. I think there is some evidence that 42 was also used on the neck once in a while as well.
I paid Greg to say all that but he forgot to put the Paypal BuyItNow button in the text so I want my money back!

Hey, good plan Possum - put photo on ebay and when the buyer complain that it not arrive, tell him the pickup doesn't exist! Are you sure the magnet A5 and not cobalt steel? I seen a few like your description but with cobalt steel magnets, zinc plate, notches for wire, etc...

[David Schwab]

Bridge, type-o

And as Possum said I have also hear about the agw 42 neck pickup, but there are not that many early Teles surfacing here in Sweden so I have very little first hand info on those.

Blackguard...have to find that book, thanx Sam

I've always heard the neck pickup is 43 because it's so small.

On the Stew-Mac magnet wire page they state 43-AWG is used at the Tele® neck position and in Rickenbacker pickups. However, Rics use 44, but they don't stock 44.

And here:

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/pickups.html

Wire Gauge: this is the gauge of wire as advertised by the wire manufacturer. Fender basically used 42 gauge wire for everything but the Telecaster neck pickup (43 gauge).

And on this stooge's page: ;)

http://www.sdpickups.com/icehouse.shtml

ICE-HOUSE NECK PICKUPS
The Ice-House Stock Rhythm pickup is wound with 43 gauge wire as orginally spec’d

[Sam Lee Guy]

Velly solly to disaglee David, but my original 1952 Telecaster has neck pickup with DC reading of 4.9-5.0 depending what day you measure wound with 42 PE. Sam look under microscope to compare size of wire with known samples. These low reading neck pickup more common than you may think.

[Possum]

I don't think its cobalt steel, I don't have it in front of me but I would have noticed if the magnets looked different, the baseplate is copper plate. The guass is around 1200 so its definitely NOT alnico 3 which Nacho insists they are. Still nice and strong after all this time. Its dated in the pocket as '51 signed by Tadeo. Lightest tele I've ever held. One piece swamp ash.

[soundmasterg]

Lightest tele I've ever held. One piece swamp ash

Yah, the whole guitar is under 5 pounds!


However, Rics use 44, but they don't stock 44.

I've heard some knowledgeable people say that some of the old RIC pickups were 42 gauge. Unless I get a chance to see one and measure, no way of knowing for sure. It would be interesting to try some with different wire to see how it sounds though.

Greg

[Electricdaveyboy]

Wehn reading the Blackguard book , Nachos says that the most powerful growling Tele pickups he ever heard on a early 50 ties tele had verry low ohm reaings. If I remember right they were 5-6 K ohms and this made me wonder because with 43 AWG my pickups were more like icepick sound and no growl in sight.
Then I wound a Tele bridge pickup with AWG 41 and got the growl.Could it be that Leo used everythibg he could get his hands on ?

[Spence]

Sam Lee Guy talks bollocks all the time. Don't listen to him. It's all misinformation. Infact, let's all get him thrown off this forum. He's a bloody imposter anyway. Anyone would think he was the most respected pickup maker and restorer of vintage guitars and pickups in England the way he goes on.
Anyone who's had a couple of old pickups to look at would be able to pick holes in his arguments. All this twaddle about taking his own vintage pickup collection apart to count winds, test wire and magnets etc. is all fantasy. All this crap about getting magnets and other parts recreated in the finest detail is utter deceit. Everyone knows the only thing that comes out of England are fakes that a novice could spot from a nautical mile away.
Nacho and Duchossoir have written conflicting books. Nothing quite adds up with them. I can only conclude that this damned Sam Lee Guy has got to them too. Something must be done to stop him...........!

[Sam Lee Guy]

To stop me, you gotta catch me first, cookie! ..... lun faster!

[David Schwab]

I've heard some knowledgeable people say that some of the old RIC pickups were 42 gauge. Unless I get a chance to see one and measure, no way of knowing for sure. It would be interesting to try some with different wire to see how it sounds though.

Greg

John Hall says they have always used 44. He said he even looked though the old purchase orders for wire and never found anything but 44. But who knows when you go to pre-Hall Rickenbacker.

"#44, as it has been forever."

[John Hall, jhall@rickenbacker.com, 3/22/2000]

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/music/guitars/rickenbacker/section-39.html


I've read the old lap steel used 38 PE.

[soundmasterg]

Yah I know what Mr. Hall has said about it. Some other guys like Don Butler and Fralin say they have seen RIC pickups with 42, usually toasters, and that is the true sound. So as I said, no way to really know unless you come across an old RIC and spec out what the wire is in them. I believe Sergio has experimented with different wire gauges on RIC pickups, though I could be mistaken. Like you, I've heard the older RIC horseshoes were larger gauges such as 38.

Greg

[David Schwab]

If would make sense that the toasters were 42. They sound like 42. 43 is tighter sounding. 42 is rounder.

I have two toasters from 1973 with the long magnets. They are from my two 4001's. I'll have to take a look at them and see if I can get an idea visually by comparing some wire samples.

[Possum]

One thing the Nacho book really screwed up is the gauss readings. They used a magnetometer that reads from zero to 25. It has nothing to do with guass and is very inaccurate. I told him about it and he said well Duncan uses one :-) Otherwise its a great book and if you don't own a copy you'd better get yourself over to SKLutherie I think it is and buy one, once they are out of print they are gone forever, then a year from now they will be on Ebay for hundreds of dollars, I'm not kidding either. Its the best book on teles ever printed....

[Spence]

Nice book tainted by one man's opinion. I own a copy so I'm not talking bollocks. I wouldn't sell it, well not unless I have to, because it's a nice thing to have. I certainly wouldn't say it's the ultimate reference piece but it has become a very useful doorstop.

[chevalij]

So, what Spence is saying is that Sam Lee Guy (SMG) is actually JazzBluesRock from Italy?

[Spence]

Cripes, why did you have to bring JBR up? He'll be on here again any minute.

[mick]

I had a chat via email with Nacho Banos or whatever his name is , nice guy..asked him some questions but he told me to buy the book...:D:D

Mick

[Sam Lee Guy]

So, what Spence is saying is that Sam Lee Guy (SMG) is actually JazzBluesRock from Italy?

Aah! You many interestable south my great magnet many many greatest zither maker in Italy comment my brilliant magnet exit only comparible to magnet from much expensive vintage 1964 guitar. Why everybody try to deliver hate when I single try to unite the world to the greatness of my fathers work surrounding 1964 magnet. Many famous newspaper comment the best exit.

[Spence]

Aah! You many interestable south my great magnet many many greatest zither maker in Italy comment my brilliant magnet exit only comparible to magnet from much expensive vintage 1964 guitar. Why everybody try to deliver hate when I single try to unite the world to the greatness of my fathers work surrounding 1964 magnet. Many famous newspaper comment the best exit.

Spingalo sui vostri behinds voi imposters.

or

It pushes it on yours behinds you imposters.

JizzBallsCock.

[SK66]

I have seen very early tele neck pickups wound with what would seem to be 42AWG. I do not know if this is because initially everything else fender was making was using 42awg and they just ran the first bunch with that, or if it is due to manufacturing tolerances or supply availability. Remember that this was shortly after WWII and during the Korean War, add to that the difficulty of keeping such tight tolerances with the technology available.
The same is true for Rick pickups. I've measured several that would seem to be using 43awg, although I've never personally had one that seemed to use 42awg.
BTW, sorry to post on topic.....

[Stan H]

BTW, sorry to post on topic.....

Hehehe...good one Steven :D Kudos too, sometimes while reading I actually forget what the topic was!

[soundmasterg]

SK, thanks for letting us know that about the RIC pickups. I suspected it from what I've heard from others, but haven't seen any myself that are anything but 44 gauge. I wonder how high they wound them with 43 and how it changes the sound?

greg

P.S. Here is a quote from a post Mr. John Hall (president and owner of RIC) made on a Rickenbacker bbs in 1998 regarding their pickups.

"Answer: I'm going to quote from a message I previously posted on this topic: I don't know about the late 50's . . . I'm not going to destroy one of those pickups to find out . . . but from the early 60's until today we've only used #44 wire. If you have measured otherwise, you're looking at a rewound pickup. The modern reissues measure about 11.2K with a lab grade ohmmeter. As I said before, you'll find genuine vintage pickups which have a variety of specs . . . sometimes as high as 16K and as low as 7K ohms DC resistance. The modern one is indeed a compromise between output and a particular type of sound, but not any greater of a compromise than many of the original, unspecified or less-than-consistent units. Now let me say it again . . . SINCE THE EARLY SIXTIES, WE HAVE USED NOTHING BUT #44 MAGNET WIRE. If it's not #44 on your pickup, it's NOT FACTORY WOUND. We have never used #42 or #46 wire as stated. During the vintage pickup "redesign" phase, we tested close to 100 pickups fro a variety of parameters and the current product is essentially an average or composite of all these units. But beyond this, we even looked through all of our old production and purchasing records to make sure we are using materials of the genuine specs. I can tell you that again that nothing other than #44 wire has been purchased, although several different insulation materials and other wire coatings have been used through the years."

[Ruel]

So, what Spence is saying is that Sam Lee Guy (SMG) is actually JazzBluesRock from Italy?

I don't think Sam Lee Guy is JazzBlesRock. For one, Sam speaks better English than JazzBLuesRock.

[David Schwab]

P.S. Here is a quote from a post Mr. John Hall (president and owner of RIC) made on a Rickenbacker bbs in 1998 regarding their pickups.

That's the quote I was looking for. I have two toasters from 1974. I seem to remember they read about 8K. I haven't looked at the wire though.

[Spence]

I don't think Sam Lee Guy is JazzBlesRock. For one, Sam speaks better English than JazzBLuesRock.

No, JBL is not SLG, but JBL's father keeps her in a cellar on the Italian/Austrian border. SLG is kind foreign uncle who brings candy....

[madialex]

I think I now know who Sam Lee Guy is but I will keep it under my hat...:D

[GlennW]

Many famous newspaper comment the best exit.

Here's a nice exit.

[Possum]

I never got around to trying those magnets out, it seems just sitting here they have demagnetized themselves pretty badly, hope no one bought any of those...foolling around with magic mixes takes alot of experience, that stuff is there for a leason....damn, now I'M doing it, no velly funny fellow me......

[SteikBacon]

Can anyone tell me how tall pickups to tele usually is?? Both bridge and neck.

Edit. I mean how tall the coil is...

[David Schwab]

Can anyone tell me how tall pickups to tele usually is?? Both bridge and neck.

Edit. I mean how tall the coil is...

My notes say .531 between flats for the bridge.

[Chadheckler1]

Tried to search for a good answer to this question before asking it...this seems like a good thread on the topic...

I am rewinding a '71 tele Neck pickup. My current plan based on this thread is:

43 AWG
PE insulation
5.5k (The bridge pickup for this set measures 6.19k)

Does this sound like a decent plan to get a relatively "Stock" sound?

[old_picker]

early fender days they used what they could get and bought small orders as production was very slow - the early esquire, broadcaster, tele used 43 guage wire and later changed to 42g round 1952 - the mags in the 1950 - 1951 were larger diam and they didnt really get standardised until 1952 - as leo was quoted as saying "it took a thousand guitars to get it set up right" or similar

we are looking at a small workshop some 60 years ago with a few people building guitars by hand - obviuosly a standard spec just didnt exist in those early couple years as it does today. suppliers changed, stock was not available things were done differently from bench to bench etc etc

today you buy a tele at a price point with an accompanying detail spec

what is a broadcaster lead pickup spec? no such thing really it was a steel guitar pickup plugged into a spanish style solid body hand built to a rough spec that varied from winder to winder - they can range from 6.4k to 11k they used fine wire and larger slugs with a steel plate on the bottom - but thats about as close as it gets.

only around 200 broadcasters were ever built

[madialex]

I don't think Sam Lee Guy is JazzBlesRock. For one, Sam speaks better English than JazzBLuesRock.

Don"t you mean better engrish, Sam Lee Guy like velly much you to make his words say much right..:D I think Same Lee Guy has made a good exit as well though unfortunately. I miss his posts, he knew a ton about things like this thread... Sam Lee Guy Come Baaaack...........:)