Few questions about plain enamel [Archive]

fjgaston

05-02-2008, 02:13 AM

Hello !
I wound few single coil pickups using formvar coated wire and polyester wire from stewmac (I'm not sure it's polyester ?!?)

I now want to wind humbucker pickups, I heard the best ones are the real PAF wound with Plain Enamel but it seems that Plain Enamel disappeared because of the benzene regulations.
My first question is : Is there some plain enamel wire good enought still available ?? where ??
Is the plain enamel available on http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com a real plain enamel or is it only a bad replica ???
I've never seen humbucker pickups wound with formvar. Why don't we use formvar for humbucker pickups ???
Are there good alternatives for plain enamel ???
On this web site http://wires.co.uk/acatalog/cu_enam.html they sell "enamelled coper wire", do you know what is that thing : "Standard Enamelled Copper Wire : No specific enamel." ???

Thank you very much

Spence

05-02-2008, 07:33 PM

Speak to Jon Gundry but be warned, if you mention PAFs and Leesona 102 winding machines, you're in for a long night.

SkinnyWire

05-03-2008, 03:02 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_oil

JGundry

05-03-2008, 09:39 PM

Speak to Jon Gundry but be warned, if you mention PAFs and Leesona 102 winding machines, you're in for a long night.

Yes it will be a long night of history and the secrets of recreating the best PAF tones. I think Spence is really into fantasy fiction though so it probably would be a long night for him.

I suspect that the Mojotone wire is really MWS but don't know for sure. Spence should know where to get some of the last remaining stash of the benzene era wire but obviously does not want to give up the source. I don't either really. I have about 200lbs. of it sitting on a shelf smelling of majic markers though. Only for resale in the form of a pickup.

fjgaston

05-04-2008, 02:08 AM

I red your post about the leesona 102 and PAFs, it's a great topic !!!!
If real benzene Plain Enamel can't be build anymore, what is the best alternative for humbucker winding ????
Is Formvar Ok or does it really sucks for Humbucker Pickups ???
What is wrong with MWS ??

Spence

05-04-2008, 02:31 PM

Yes it will be a long night of history and the secrets of recreating the best PAF tones. I think Spence is really into fantasy fiction though so it probably would be a long night for him.

I suspect that the Mojotone wire is really MWS but don't know for sure. Spence should know where to get some of the last remaining stash of the benzene era wire but obviously does not want to give up the source. I don't either really. I have about 200lbs. of it sitting on a shelf smelling of majic markers though. Only for resale in the form of a pickup.

Don't be a prick Jon. You reckon you're an expert so try to be helpful instead of trying to be clever. If you have a 200 lb stash let the man have some as you're never going to use it.

JGundry

05-04-2008, 04:16 PM

Don't be a prick Jon. You reckon you're an expert so try to be helpful instead of trying to be clever. If you have a 200 lb stash let the man have some as you're never going to use it.

Just following your lead Spence. Your setting such a fine example.

Not to worry the wire will be used for pickups. I wound a pair on the Leesona last weekend. They sound phenomenal if I do humbly say so myself. If you like I will post pics of the finished and updated machine.

Another tidbit about the Leesona for anyone that wants to experiment. Of the 3 original wire guides one is not perfectly machines where the ball bearing is seated. So you end up with a very minute wobble with each revolution of the wheel. A tiny and perfectly repeatable scatter that you couldn't do by hand. Just one of the many quirks of this machine that play a part in the PAF sound.

On the wire thing. The old formula stuff is great. The MWS stuff is better than no PE and is perfectly workable though. You can make great sounding pickups with it. The outside diameter tolerance of wire in PAF's varies quite a bit within the 42 AWG tolerance. Having a large stash of the correct wire gives me the flexibility to mismatch the outside diameter of the wire between the bobbins to match the mismatches I have seen in original PAF's. Plus there seems to be some mojo with the old formula but it probably has more to do with coating thickness than the formula but don't really know for sure.

NightWinder

05-04-2008, 05:39 PM

THERE IS NO SHORTAGE OF PLAIN ENAMEL WIRE. WITH TODAYS TECHNOLOGY AND TIGHT CONTROL IN THE MANIFACTURING PROCESS THERE IS NO ALARM OR DANGER OF REA NOT MAKING IT CORRECTLY AND WILL CONTINUE TO DO SO FOR MANY YEARS TO COME WITH ORIGINAL FORMULA.

WHO EVER TOLD YOU THERE WAS A SHORTAGE IS A PINHEAD!! oRDER YOURSELF SOME FROM MWS....
WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU GUYS GET YOUR INFO SOMETIMES IS BEYOND BELIEF....THIS PLACE USED TO HAVE SOME TRUTH TO IT!!

kevinT

05-05-2008, 02:21 AM

If you like I will post pics of the finished and updated machine.

hi jon, i would like to see pics of the finished product. ...glad to see you got it up and running.

Another tidbit about the Leesona for anyone that wants to experiment. Of the 3 original wire guides one is not perfectly machines where the ball bearing is seated. So you end up with a very minute wobble with each revolution of the wheel. A tiny and perfectly repeatable scatter that you couldn't do by hand. Just one of the many quirks of this machine that play a part in the PAF sound..

The wobble was one of the things that i have taken into consideration as well in my winding formula.

SkinnyWire

05-05-2008, 05:12 AM

Damn ... and here I've been trying to get mine to run WITHOUT any wobble. Guess that's enough of that.

JGundry

05-05-2008, 05:16 AM

Only one of the tree guides shows any wobble. I do think it is a variable to play with I you are trying to come up with your own PAF formula.

I will post some pics in the next week or two when I get a chance.

Possum

05-05-2008, 10:35 AM

No, there is no shortage but there's only one company in the US making it now. There used to be 3 or 4 at least. REA's wire isn't as good as some Essex wire I have from back right before almost all of them quit making it. I know of one company that bought American Wire Corp's equipment and had their guys try to teach the new owners how to make PE....they couldn't do it and gave up so they won't make it. Elektrisola was working on doing some and I just heard they quit trying. Plain enamel isn't used by modern tech companies much anymore, its kind of a dinosaur. REA having a monopoly is a bad thing, I've heard stories of the bigger pickup companies buying a couple hundred pounds of their stuff and finding alot of it unuseable or substandard. So, no its not scarce but there's no guarantee that five-ten years from now anyone will be making it. Doesn't look good to me....

Sam Lee Guy

05-05-2008, 11:34 AM

[QUOTE=JGundry;58123]Only one of the tree guides shows any wobble. /QUOTE]

Top of the mornin' to ya. Two fine fellows were out lookin' for a job and see a sign "tree fellers wanted" and one says to the other " what a shame there's only two of us!"

JGundry

05-06-2008, 04:43 AM

soundmasterg

05-06-2008, 07:54 AM

Possum

05-06-2008, 09:07 AM

SHUT THE FLUCK UP GREG, YOU WATER DRINKING, RICKENBACKER PLAYING, NOSE PICKING, AUDI DRIVING, BLUES PLAYING, SMELLY SNEAKERED, DAY JOB, (crap I ran out of adjectives, someone help me out here, no, wait a couple more....) SEYMOUR DUNCAN PLAYING, (ouch that was mean and nasty), MID 30'S, WHITE ANGLO SAXON MALE, WITH NO WIFE AND NO KIDS....pant pant, I gotta sit down that wore me out......
:cool:

Spence

05-06-2008, 09:08 AM

I spoke to Jim Morrison at Wirenetics yesterday about their stock of Plain Enamel. He replied that 'when it's gone, it's gone'.

fjgaston

05-06-2008, 09:39 AM

And what about alternatives to plain enamel ... Like the Tim Shaw PAFs, polyurethane enamelled gibson made in the 80 I have these on my Les Paul Custom 85, I compared them with real PAFs yesterday, ok mine sucks !!!

But is really Plain enamel the only solution ?
I am in France, can I find some plain enamel in Europe ???
Do you kids stop shouting ... EVEN IF I UNDERSTAND THAT SOMETIME I FEEL THE SAME F*CKING NEEEEED TO SHOUT !!!
Oh I did it !! ;-)

David Schwab

05-06-2008, 10:26 AM

I spoke to Jim Morrison at Wirenetics yesterday...

The Lizard King? ;)

Spence

05-06-2008, 02:16 PM

Well, let's put it this way; he sounded quite distant and not very well.

Stan H

05-06-2008, 03:44 PM

You guys slay me
**laughing hysterically**
:D:D:D:D:D:D

NightWinder

05-06-2008, 07:32 PM

This place is usually a pretty civil place with most people not resorting to shouting and swearing to get their point across too.

Greg

Shoot me your addy, I'll send you some kleenex

Spence

05-06-2008, 07:45 PM

Here ya go Nighty, you can send them in this :

2390

It coated in black enamel.

NightWinder

05-06-2008, 08:07 PM

Here ya go Nighty, you can send them in this :

2390

It coated in black enamel.
Oh, Now he's wiping tears in class!! : ) You know, I talked to Jim for quite some time awile back. They are just not going to stock it anymore. They are a bit higher in price too- About 8, or 9 dollars per pound too.
Heres a pointer...They are a wire company....They also make 4 conductor as well for Seymour and a few others that have the $$$, but you have to get in at the right time to get a lot while they are making it because they normally do not stock it. Super nice stuff...

David Schwab

05-06-2008, 10:25 PM

Well, let's put it this way; he sounded quite distant and not very well.

He probably said "You cannot petition the wire companies for PE!"

David King

05-06-2008, 11:01 PM

You guys are making it sound like I can't live without this stuff. Up until this week I thought PE stood for polyethylene, -shows you what I know.

I actually like the shouting and cursing, it's easier to read and it just shows me how much you all care about these damned guitar pickups. It's as if they wouldn't exist without you. I'll bet you guys will be winding pickups long after the power grid is gone and we're all living in thatched huts again.

Stan H

05-06-2008, 11:29 PM

Hey, the "Professor" did it using coconuts for batteries. GILLIGAN, LITTLE BUDDIEEEE.......

Spence

05-06-2008, 11:55 PM

The word enamel always reminds me of my student days. Me and a friend shared a house where we had a rust-stained enamel bath tub. One day I decided to paint it with enamel paint. Wrong type of enamel and a very bad idea especially as my buddy took a bath before it was dry. The paint cemented his ass cheeks together and nobody wanted the job of seperating them for him.

GlennW

05-07-2008, 12:46 AM

He probably said "You cannot petition the wires companies for PE!"

When I was back in pickup winding school...:)

Possum

05-07-2008, 02:23 AM

Yes Jim Morrison alive and well and apparently blind. what they have is the bottom of the barrel PE, you tell them you want 42 gauge and it will show up measuring as fat as .0032" which is insane. If you ask for certain diameters they will say sure budddy ol' pal send us your money first, then when it shows up its entirely different. they are either blind or they have a micrometer that only reads to two places and is rusty and doesn't work right either. but they do the same thing with their poly wire, you order 43 gauge and get 42 heavy build. this is why its essential to own a good micrometer :-)

David Schwab

05-07-2008, 05:20 AM

When I was back in pickup winding school...:)

Ah, very good! I should have thought of that part. :D

GlennW

05-07-2008, 04:06 PM

The talking intro to that song is about all I remember from that album.

David Schwab

05-07-2008, 10:53 PM

The talking intro to that song is about all I remember from that album.

I don't remember much either... I'm not a huge Doors fan, though I like Soft Parade and a few other things. My wife has some of their CD's...

NightWinder

05-09-2008, 10:15 PM

mick

05-10-2008, 12:17 PM

" Yes Jim Morrison alive and well and apparently blind. what they have is the bottom of the barrel PE, you tell them you want 42 gauge and it will show up measuring as fat as .0032" which is insane. If you ask for certain diameters they will say sure budddy ol' pal send us your money first, then when it shows up its entirely different. they are either blind or they have a micrometer that only reads to two places and is rusty and doesn't work right either. but they do the same thing with their poly wire, you order 43 gauge and get 42 heavy build. this is why its essential to own a good micrometer :-) "

First spool of PE I got was like this , same size as HF ,
second spool I just opened is great , really nice stuff ,I'm worried about getting more as I don't want the fat stuff again..so I guess I'll just do without once I run out .

Mick

fjgaston

06-17-2008, 10:39 AM

I ordered Plain Enamel at mojo supply
I just received it. On the spool I can Read Elektrisola Plain Grade 1.
There is some tangled wire at the beginning of the spool. And I can see few scratches all over the spool.:(:(:(:(
At the beginning of the spool, instead of having 1 wire, I have 4 or 5 wires ... Is it OK?????? It seems kind of weird to me!!!!
Please tell me, what can I do???

Yves

06-18-2008, 09:18 PM

Bonjour;)

Scratches and multiple wire ends doesn't look good IMO: you should report this to Mojo.

As for what you can read on the spool:
I've had contact with Electiksola directly here in France lately: they say they don't produce Formvar nor Plain Enamel (well at least for the office in France).
"Plain" = ??? (Should be plain enamel, but according to what I just mention above, maybe NOS, or maybe they still have some production somewhere, which I doubt according to what I've read so far on the subject)
"Grade 1" = nearly equivalent to Single Built, but in IEC (European) standard as opposed to NEMA (US) standard, if you refer to the technical info there:
http://www.elektrisola.com/en/enamelled-wire/technical-data-by-size.html

Hope this helps,
Yves.

salvarsan

06-18-2008, 09:46 PM

"Grade 1" = nearly equivalent to Single Built, but in IEC (European) standard as opposed to NEMA (US) standard, if you refer to the technical info there:
http://www.elektrisola.com/en/enamelled-wire/technical-data-by-size.html

Hope this helps,
Yves.

Merci, c'est tres gentil de ton part.

The pickupedia.info Standards section needs a section on European IEC standards.
Any takers?

http://www.pickupedia.info/Standards
-drh

fjgaston

06-19-2008, 12:40 AM

but which grade is used in PAF?
heavy ???

(it's funny there are many french people on this forum)

EtLa

06-19-2008, 02:09 AM

but which grade is used in PAF?
heavy ???

(it's funny there are many french people on this forum)

No... Single oleoresinous enamel (PE) but as far as I know Elektrisola doesn't make PE wire. Be careful because the last time I spoke to S. Schor at Elektrisola he thought that PE was SPN wire.

kevinT

06-19-2008, 02:53 AM

No... Single oleoresinous enamel (PE) but as far as I know Elektrisola doesn't make PE wire. Be careful because the last time I spoke to S. Schor at Elektrisola he thought that PE was SPN wire.

I don't know whether Elektrisola sells it currently but they have in the past....i have some which i am winding my PAF-style pickups with. I believe it was manufactured a few years back....but it is nice wire IMO.

NightWinder

06-19-2008, 03:40 AM

Aparently P. E stands for Planet engineers- Approaching them and getting a response something like...." Thats rediculous!! The new coatings are way better.....There could be no Sound difference!! Who told you that?? Puposterous!! Can you send me a bottle of Grey Pupon" Though ..
Plain Enamel is the oldest of insulations....That formula has been in existence forever. Just don't understand the big deal, but the wire companys do and charge us diligently : ) Currently Rea makes about 50- 70,000 lbs anually.... Thats an awful lot of maney to say bye bye to. Radio guys like that stuff too, but in larger sizes....All over ebay??