RoHS Compliance [Archive] - Music Electronics Forum

Spence

10-02-2006, 08:50 PM

This is becoming a nightmare and it's just not funny. I had to invest in a solder station which could handle the higher temperatures of lead free solder. But it's a pain because the lead free solder is almost impossible to pool. So tele baseplates for example are a huge pain. My next investment will be one of these:

http://www.ares-server.com/Ares/Ares.asp?MerchantID=RET01229&Action=Catalog&Type=Product&ID=80419A

simply so that I can solder at very high temperatures without damaging any sensitive part of a pickup.

Health & Safety though important is mostly absurd outside the environment of the office workers who draught up all this crap. Having been shot at at close quarters during an armed robbery I can testify that health and safety went straight out the window....

WolfeMacleod

10-02-2006, 09:24 PM

I just sent in an inquiry...

Greetings.
I am a manufactuer of Electric Guitar Pickups based in the USA, and I have grave concerns about the ROHS standards and how if will affect my product sales in the UK.
In my product, very small amount of leaded solder is used to solder very fine-guage wire, finer than the hair on your head. We have attempted to switch to lead-free solder to meet your demands, but the product is failing at a very accelerated rate. These products were designed to operate for 20-50 years or more, and products are failing within six months because of the lead-free solder. Failure rate like this is unacceptable.
We are concerned about our product meeting ROHS standards, but feel that to offer the residents of the UK a sub-standard product would not be good for business relations.
Also, some of our products use a "nickel silver" cover for protection. Nickel Silver is also known as German Silver. I have been informed of a possibility than Nickel Silver may not be ROHS compliant. However, to switch to any other material is simply not possible because of consumer demands and peformance effects.

This ROHS compliance seems to affect a very wide variety of products, from capacitors, to resistors, musicial instruments, and other things . It seems to me that this wanton abolishement of products is going to ban the UK right back to the stone-age, does it not? I think you are not considering the far-reaching consequences of these acts.

Thank you,
Wolfe Macleod

David Schwab

10-02-2006, 10:44 PM

Wow... this is the first I'm hearing about this. Don't know why I missed it...

So how much lead solder is in a pickup anyway? I guess nickel base plates and covers are out? I think I only have to worry about solder...

I see even nickel/silver fret wire is on the list!

At least one company has nickel free fret wire available now:

http://www.lmii.com/

"Our new Evo gold fretwire is a copper alloy that has been used for years in the optical industry. It contains no nickel and therefore meets the ”nickel free” European standard. It stands the test of time and can really dress up your guitar. With a Vicker’s hardness of HV5/250, it is harder than our nickel/silver wire (HV5/200), but softer than the stainless (HV5/300)."

I always knew nickel was toxic, but people have been handling it for years as coins and fretwire and stuff...

jason lollar

10-03-2006, 01:08 AM

Joe Gwinn

10-03-2006, 02:28 AM

david, where did you see the list that nickel silver fretwire was banned- a link if you can remeber please.
Navigating the immense amount of information is difficult.
I did see someone filed for an exception on musical instruments but havent found if it was passed, regected or waiting for consideration:confused:Where was this exception request seen? With luck, it will cite specific paragraphs of the regulations.

By the way, the point of RoHS is not that the user is in danger from the solder within, but that after the product becomes landfill, the the lead and whatever else will leach into the environment.

But there has to be some numerical tolerance, an allowed fractional weight. They cannot forbid one nanogram; everything has nanograms of lead in it. There has to be a numerical limit, and for things like guitars we may well have enough wood to overbalance the tiny amount of solder used on the pickup.

I have to wonder about a limit on nickel, as this would make stainless steel cookware illegal. We should read the actual regulation before believing that nickel is a problem. Likewise, metallic chrome. Stainless steel is nickel, chrome, and iron.

And I wonder what the story on lead-acid batteries is. Perhaps all the manufacturers needed to do was to promise to recycle the lead. Given the lack of alternatives, it isn't obvious what else could be done.

Joe Gwinn

10-03-2006, 02:36 AM

In my product, very small amount of leaded solder is used to solder very fine-guage wire, finer than the hair on your head. We have attempted to switch to lead-free solder to meet your demands, but the product is failing at a very accelerated rate. These products were designed to operate for 20-50 years or more, and products are failing within six months because of the lead-free solder. Failure rate like this is unacceptable. When pickups fail in six months, what exactly happens? Coil wire break at the solder joint? What does the failure point look like under magnification?

Just Bob

10-03-2006, 03:02 AM

Nickel is not a banned material under RoHS. The issue there is that many nickel plating formulations have historically used lead and cadmium additives. Likewise, there are brass formulations with and without lead. See http://www.pfonline.com/articles/100501.html Electroless nickel plating IS available that meets EU requirements. You have to make sure that you ask specifically for compliant processes. A lot of people, however, have allergies to nickel and I try to avoid it.

JGundry

10-03-2006, 07:58 AM

This stuff has the lowest melting point of any lead free solder I have found and the flux is supposed to be non corrosive. I have not tried it yet because it is pricey. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=093-584

I have been using lead free solder for my effect pedals from the beginning with no problems yet. It is harder to work with than lead solder. The biggest pain is that the high iron temperatures make the rosin smoke like crazy. It does not flow well either. Circuit Specialists sells some lead free solder that flows okay, at least better than the Kester lead free stuff but it does not have a wash free flux so it is no good for anything but covers, if that. I have not tried it for covers yet but I think it may work.

By the way anyone soldering should get a good fume extractor. By good I mean one that costs in the range of $900.00. The lead, flux and tin are all bad for you. Many may think this is overkill but I even wrap a folded over post it note over the wire so my skin is not in contact with the wire. After a day of soldering I noticed I was having a metallic taste in my mouth even with lead free solder and a fume extractor. I figured I must be absorbing it through my skin so I use the post it and have no metallic taste anymore. Lead is suspected as a cause of brain cancer. I know of one maker with brain cancer. Tin is often contaminated with a radioactive isotope and exposure to it increases your exposure to gamma radiation which increases a persons cancer risk.

Alex/Tubewonder

10-03-2006, 01:14 PM

Hi folks, my 1st post, been lurking in here occasionally..

I've been converting to ROHS during past 10 months and have gathered some info and experience. Basically, ROHS (and don't forget WEEE) directives came about caused by all the throw away short life span chep products. Household white goods, TVs, PCs, cellphones etc are the real problem. It's an environmental and therefore also a health issue.

We on the other hand are having hard time imagining that anyone would throw away our products. We expect them to be cherished and passed on as family heirlooms.

The substances that directly affect us, amp, effects and musical instrument builders are lead, hexavalent chrome, mercury, some flame retardants as used in power resistors and such.

The problem or the pain in the neck is that the limits set on contents of these substances in a product are based on homogenous material. This means that it's not the lead content in an amps total weight that has to be below allowed limit. Each homogenous part must comply, for example: resistor with tinned copper leads, homogenous materials under consideration is resistor ceramic body, connecting caps, copper wire and tin as well lacquer coating, each of these must comply with ROHS limits by itself.
So, a small glob o leaded solder in a pickup renders it non-compliant.

That's why you need to get a ROHS compliance certificate from component manufacturers.

Exemptions: There is no mechanism within the EU commission for individual exemptions, however you can put forward a motion calling for exemption of a certain product group. Such motion regarding "professional equipment with expected life span of minimum 10 years" has been submitted to the EU commission. At this moment it is not known if the motion will come for vote or not. I'm afraid it will not as it is to generally worded and open to a very wide interpretation.

In the meantime, collect ROHS certificates for all materials that you use, get new tools like soldering stations, wire cutters, pliers etc since your old ones are lead contaminated.
Collect all your leaded components/materials and store them in a separate location - a box under your desk is not ok.

Where and when can you still use leaded solder and components?
- equipment that you build for your own use that you will not pass on to other party.
- service and repair of products already on the market prior to ROHS enforcement i.e. repairs and service of vintage stuff.

Lead free solder: I'm getting very good results with Alpha Metals SACX0307 Fluitin 1532, sold in EU by RS-Components, stock No: 514-5085, good wetting and flows nicely. Flux stinks like a morgue though...

Hope this has been of some help.

Just Bob

10-03-2006, 01:51 PM

In the meantime, collect ROHS certificates for all materials that you use, get new tools like soldering stations, wire cutters, pliers etc since your old ones are lead contaminated.
Collect all your leaded components/materials and store them in a separate location - a box under your desk is not ok.

.

Very nice discussion. You certainly know more about it than I do. I knew about collecting certificates and new, uncontaminated soldering stations. But, EVERYTHING in my shop is microscopically contaminated with lead after 30 years. Leaded brass cut on the machine tools, all test leads have touched leaded solder, all equipment exposed to solder fumes, as well as the building itself. It's 100 years old and has been painted many times with leaded paint. How far does this go?? Are they implying that I have to build a whole new shop to be compliant? Some snippers and a soldering iron, OK. Paying attention when I order parts is fine. But, there are many thousands or a million parts in my inventory that are not compliant. It is simply not possible to store them elsewhere, as is replacing all tools and equipment that may have a few atoms of lead on them.

Alex/Tubewonder

10-03-2006, 02:59 PM

I think that in your case with a million parts in your shop it might be simpler to dedicate a separate area to ROHS work and parts storage - I assume you won't have a million of them for some time yet. Then just let this area expand with time. Just make sure you don't let leaded stuff into that area. As far as contamination of test equipment, test leads etc - I don't see this as a problem. We don't need to rush in panic, there won't be any "ROHS police" chasing lead atoms.

Possum

10-03-2006, 03:36 PM

I think Greg mentioned something about this to me. This just applies the EU, right? What are they going to do about ALNICO? Cobalt is poisonous, nickel is bad? Aluminum? I'm going to stock up on lead content solder in case it hits here.....

Just Bob

10-03-2006, 03:44 PM

Hmmm. The shop isn't big enough for what I have stuffed in there now. A separate area would be impossible, maybe a separate bench. Nothing is separated now. I have close to a thousand little drawers and bins filled with parts. A thousand pieces each of a lot of resistors and caps adds up pretty fast. Most of them bought before RoHS was invented.

What is their definition of "separate" ? A building or a room or a bench? Is there any actual enforcement for small manufacturers? It's good enough for me to just say I'm compliant? I can build with compliant parts and solder, but beyond that, who knows?

David Schwab

10-03-2006, 04:21 PM

jason lollar

10-03-2006, 06:50 PM

Just Bob

10-03-2006, 08:45 PM

Tinned wire will not be acceptable.

Note that wire tinned with pure tin or a non-hazardous tin alloy is acceptable. It's only the older stuff that's tinned with tin-lead alloy that is not allowed. Many wire suppliers still have both versions. I don't export anything yet and prefer to use the older stuff when I can get it.

Unfortunately the new stuff does not solder as well and is not as corrosion resistant or crack resistant. Same goes for PC boards. The old solder-plate boards could sit on the shelf for years and still be solderable. The new tin plated stuff tarnishes pretty quickly.

ken

10-03-2006, 10:46 PM

I got an exemption for using nitro lacquer... could a pickup maker be exempted from all this because it could be argued that you aren't 'mass producing' pickups, it's more of an 'artisan' thing? For us small pickup makers, the actual impact on the environment would be negligible. After all, we aren't using wave solder fountains 24/7 or anything.

I have a female friend who is stressin' about this because she makes stained glass windows as a hobby, and her hobby would be almost impossible under this program.

Ken

jason lollar

10-04-2006, 04:06 AM

this applies to the EU, Japan and China.
China- havent sold anything there anyway.

Ken what do you mean you got an exception for spraying nitro? does it have anything to do with RoHS?
Arguing that you are too small to make a difference- I dont think thats going to fly. Customs opens a box with 4 or 5 grand worth of pickups and they are going to hit you for the paperwork or compliance- maybe if you just ship one set of pickups at a time youll get away with it by not being noticed- I dont know-but alot of us sell in quantities to guitar factories, distributors or retailers. If you dont now you may in the future.
I wonder what the fine is if you get caught trying to sneak one set in?
Probably better to comply than it is to take a chance.

Stan H

10-04-2006, 04:25 AM

Will they test the products or will you have to send proof of compliance with the shipment. Sorry to sound so lost...it's just that I am. I ship alot to UK and Singapore. Just ordered a couple of spools of silver solder. Now I'm broke! :eek:

-Stan

soundmasterg

10-04-2006, 04:41 AM

I work at Rodgers Instruments LLC in Oregon, where we make church organs and theater organs and keyboards. We're part of the Roland group and make some of their products too. We've been fighting with ROHS issues for the better part of a year. The solder that you have to use with it basically sucks, and you need to have a soldering station that will go at higher temps, and even then it sucks compared to leaded solder. Since I'm not producing anything myself, it doesn't bother me at the moment, but I intend to produce things like pickups or amps or guitars in the future, and it would impact me then. This is a case of government getting in the way of the consumer and the producer in a big way with burdensome and not well-thought-out regulations in my opinion. If they would take care of things on a recycling and trash level instead of at the producer level then there wouldn't be a problem. As a species we could recycle a LOT more than we do now, but its too much bother for everyone.

ken

10-04-2006, 07:25 AM

I live in an area where air quality is starting to be monitored, so I had to talk
to the local EPA about using nitrocellulose lacquer. I was told that I didn't use enough of the stuff at once to be considered a pollution source, so I wasn't really to be worried about. I was just using the nitro as a example, anyway.
Do you have 'air quality cops' where you live?

Maybe it is better to ship one box at a time, I did some research and compliance will be murder. It sounds to me like another case of 'trying to kill a mosquito with a machine gun'.

Frankly, I can't see anyone testing just one box of pickups, the manhours wasted would be enormous. Maybe there will be exemptions for items with long expected lifespans, like in a prior post. I spent years wave soldering and working with SMT parts in an OEM plant, and I was also a copper/gold/nickel/tin-lead plater in another board shop. I'm waiting to be found that my whole body isn't compliant. :rolleyes:

I admit I don't produce as much as you guys do, but I'm working on it.
I am wondering what will be next to be regulated...

If people spent as much time and effort recycling used products as they did chasing the 'new improved', we probably wouldn't be in this mess.

Ken

JGundry

10-04-2006, 07:49 AM

WolfeMacleod

10-04-2006, 11:09 AM

http://www.newark.com/services/rohs/documents/rohs_exemptions_060629.pdf

However I talked to a big pickup manufacturer and they said there are no exceptions allowed, switch to leadless solder, the covers are fine because they are homogonous but check with all your wire suppliers. Tinned wire will not be acceptable.
The reason the solder used in a pickup is not allowed is because you could cut the pickup apart and seperate the components- its not homogonous.

5th Batch Exemption proposals:

#3Use of lead in Solder applications for electronic components of musical intruments having an average lifespan in excess of ten years.

#8 ...professional audio equiment...

So..let's hope they pass...

Looking back on #3, it could easily be argued that the average lifespan of a [well constructed] pickup is easily more than 20 or 30 years.

To who asked me the question - the solder joints are failing. I think the high heat is partially vaporizing the copper.

Just Bob

10-04-2006, 12:09 PM

I saw that a requested exemption to use lead solder for making speakers was withdrawn or denied. I expect that they will not be too free with the exemptions since everybody wants them and the performance of the lead-free stuff is poor.

Re: solder joint failures - Can't be that the copper is vaporizing. Not hot enough. But, it could be that the copper is forming a eutectic with the tin. Essentially dissolved by the tin. Could also be a flux corrosion problem. There are solder alloys that include a percentage of copper to stop the eutectic problem. I'd take a picture of a failed joint under a microscope and send it to Kester and Alpha. They can tell you what will fix it. I have switched to a solder paste and hot-air soldering, although it will work with a regular iron. Sn96.5/Ag3.0/Cu.5. Seems to work better because the flux is mixed in with the solder. Not cheap, but not bad. About $25 for a syringe or $50 for a half pound. I get it from http://www.stencilsunlimited.com/solder_products.php Way cheaper than Kester. Needs to be kept refrigerated, which is a bit of a pain. They ship it in ice packs unless you order in the winter.

David Schwab

10-04-2006, 04:13 PM

this applies to the EU, Japan and China.
China- havent sold anything there anyway.

I just sent a pickup to New Zealand... I guess they aren't included in this. Didn't have any issues with customs. <whew!> :cool:

Has anyone tried silver solder? I've never used it in electronic situations, but it was easy to work with.

I wonder if encapsulated pickups (such as EMG, Bartolini, and Armstrong) are affected by the lead solder ban, since they are sealed units?

I have to agree this really needs to be dealt with at the recycling end of things. (how often are pickups thrown in the trash?) I wonder what the big pickup makers are going to do? :confused:

Alex/Tubewonder

10-04-2006, 04:44 PM

It is dealt with at the recycling end of things too. WEEE directive (http://www.environment-agency.gov.uk/business/444217/444663/1106248/1106255/?version=1&lang=_e)
ROHS directive deals with manufacturing end, WEEE steps in at products end of life.
As manufacturer, distributor or retailer you/we are responsible for proper disposal/recycling. The crossed out waste bin symbol on a product means not only that it must not be thrown away but has to be returned to whoever put it on the market for proper disposal.

jason lollar

10-04-2006, 06:22 PM

they dont even monitor car emmisions where I live.

Kester #275 is what they told me.
The bigger guys are all complying- thats whats happenin

JGundry

10-04-2006, 07:53 PM

they dont even monitor car emmisions where I live.

Kester #275 is what they told me.
The bigger guys are all complying- thats whats happenin

Bummer #275 is what I use for effects and it is very blobby and hard to work with especially on finer things like transistor leads. The higher temperatures toast the flux on the solder tip very quickly and that makes the blobbing worse. I have not tried it with magnet wire yet but my guess that you will have to flux the pigtail leads before hand if you want to get a blob free joint for humbuckers.

ken

10-04-2006, 11:21 PM

It's strange, AFAIK we had three 'air quality action days' where I live in the last two years, and the EPA wants us to buy reformulated ethanol 'corn gas' and stop using house fireplaces and twocycle gas engines. I live in 'farm central', the middle of nowhere not L.A. or Mexico City. Those of you who live in areas where you don't worry about this yet are lucky, but they too will soon have to.

Anyway, lemme get this straight -

RoHS says we can't send pickups using lead solder to the EU. Fine. I have silver solder too. Now some of you have this WEEE that says that at the end of a product's lifespan, the product must be sent back to the OEM for 'recycling'. Now, since musical instruments have an average life of way over ten years, it is possible that we could try to get an exemption. Fine. I have never known in my life a musician to throw a pickup away anyway, but if I had to deal with the recycling, I can do this.

My question is... let's say that somebody simply throws away a pickup locally wherever he/she is. Under these laws, are we responsible as pickup makers for this? Can we be sued for somebody else's stupidity/laziness? There is real precedent actually... gun makers are being sued to punish them for the actions of criminal people using their own products which they made in a legal manner, and McDonald's fast food restaurants (among others) had lawsuit attempts because some people actually got fat from eating their products. Here in WI, USA the governor tried to sue all paint makers awhile back for damages for making lead house paint, which was once legal but now outlawed. The kicker was, he wanted to sue **EVERY** paint maker, even those companies that weren't even in existence yet when lead was federally outlawed in paints some 30 or more years ago!

What's my point?

No matter how you feel about these social issues, in the end we pickup makers are going to be directly affected by what happens to these other manufacturers. I know that the 'big boys' like McDonalds and Smith & Wesson can afford to defend themselves against these types of legislation, but we simply cannot. How can we protect ourselves? What is legal today may not be twenty years or more in the future. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Ken

Joe Gwinn

10-05-2006, 05:25 AM

To who asked me the question - the solder joints are failing. I think the high heat is partially vaporizing the copper.Twas me. More likely is that the copper in the thin wire is dissolving in the solder, removing enough of the wire to cause failure. We have seen this problem with ordinary solder: recall the long discussion about the proper soldering temperature, with one school of thought holding that 800 degrees F was too hot, even if it worked well for thermal stripping of magnet wire.

Anyway, there was a solder (and solder maker) called Save-a-Bit many years (decades?) ago. Their claim to fame was that by pre-saturating the solder with copper, they would reduce erosion of the soldering-iron tip. This all went bye-bye after the invention of iron-plated copper soldering-iron tips, as iron does not much dissolve in solder, even very hot solder.

This leads to an experiment: use an unplated copper tip, so the copper in the solder comes mostly from the soldering-iron tip, thus saving the wire. This may require one to file the tip to remove the iron plating, exposing the bare copper. Such tips will wear out quickly, but they don't cost all that much, and are needed only for this one step. So, run it hot enough that the solder joint is very quickly done. I would put some paste flux on the joint to be, feed some solder to the hot tip, so there is a little drip clinging to the bare copper. Then, touch the hot (and copper-saturated) solder to the fluxed joint. There should be a little puff of smoke as the wire is stripped and soldered. Remove tip from joint. Contact time is something like two seconds.

soundmasterg

10-05-2006, 07:50 PM

Wolfe, are you still using a soldering gun rather than a soldering iron? Just wondering....

Greg

WolfeMacleod

10-06-2006, 09:58 AM

Wolfe, are you still using a soldering gun rather than a soldering iron? Just wondering....

Greg

Yep. I like the gun. My assembly guy uses the adjustable iron. Too small and "penlike" for my hands...My hands cramp when I write, and so when I use the iron too.

David Schwab

10-06-2006, 03:15 PM

Be careful with having a soldering gun around magnets. They generate a magnetic field at the tip and I've read they can demagnetize magnets. The literature that came with my old Hi-A pickup cautioned about using a soldering gun with the pickup.

soundmasterg

10-06-2006, 09:12 PM

Have you been getting coil failures with the new solder with the gun soldered coils and the pen soldered coils Wolfe? Wondering if the gun could be the culprit....

Tom Phillips

10-07-2006, 12:17 AM

Below is a snipit I saved that was originally submitted by Martin Mayer to ""Bob's Mailbox" IN Electronic Design magazine 9/14/06.
The IA-423 solder formulation sounds interesting. My initial investigation turned up one audiophyle source selling it for a high price in small quantities. That seller, of course, had the usual audiophyle WA clames.

Snipit:

"We have tried several "new solder formulations that comply with RoHS and WEEE directives. The best replacement, from specifications and performance,-is the IA-423 formulation (Sn/Ag4.7/Cu1.7), which is eutectic like Sn/Pb37, and makes a nice clean-looking joint provided sufficient flux is used. This solder requires a nominal (10°C) increase in tip temperature or increased tip-contact time. Also working well is Kester's Sn/Ag3/Cu0.5 formulation. Although non-eutectic, this solder "wets" later than its leaded predecessors and flows through holes better than any leaded solder we've used. Final finish is not nearly as "cold looking" as some others. Both of these formulations work very well for hot air rework and assembly of surface-mount devices, which is even more critical than through-hole these days. It is worth noting that the IA-423 formulation falls under patent 5,527,628 (July 1993, USA Only), which covers the joints produced (SN/Ag3.5-7.7/Cu1.0-4.0), and the Kester formulation is patented (JP 50 50 289, March 1993). Non-patented alloys, such as Stannol TC (Sn/Cu1.0), produce a confusing, inferior looking "cold" final finish. Perhaps there is some patent paranoia that is holding the lead-free world away from these quite usable alloys."

I'd like to hear about it if anyone has information about IA-123 solder.

Tom

Alex/Tubewonder

10-07-2006, 09:05 AM

It looks like a good formula but they don't make solder wire with flux core so you have to apply flux externally. Messy.

Tom Phillips

10-07-2006, 06:40 PM

No flux core? I didn't pick up on that. Hopefully, there will be more options in the near future.

WolfeMacleod

10-07-2006, 11:41 PM

Have you been getting coil failures with the new solder with the gun soldered coils and the pen soldered coils Wolfe? Wondering if the gun could be the culprit....

Both iron and gun.

David King

10-09-2006, 05:44 AM

It's a bit amusing to see how we all react to the RoHS issue. Nobody likes change I guess... I switched to leadfree solder a couple of months ago and have hardly noticed a difference except that I don't have to clean oxidation off the tip as often and my joints look a whole lot better. The solder is stiffer and you need to keep your tip tinned or the stuff just won't melt. This is just good soldering technique. I definitely crank the temp up to 11 when I'm soldering to the back of pots but that's just another reason NOT to solder to the backs of pots, ground pots via a washer and leave the cases alone -you'll experience a much lower failure rate of the pots.

I got MG Chemicals Cat No. 4900-1125 Rohs compliant lead free solder at the local Fry's, $8 for a 1/4 LB spool. It comes with a flux that doesn't affect my eyes and nose the way rosin core did. I can't say I've soldered any pickups leads and all my hookup wire is milspec 19 strand silver plated copper with teflon jacket. I'm sure that makes things a little easier.

Obviously we don't need to comply in the states but I couldn't think of a good reason not to try. Rohs will undoubted arrive on this shore someday, meanwhile now is a good time to dump all your contaminated, non-complient components on Ebay while they are still worth something and before you have to pay someone to get rid of them for you.

If anyone is interested in reading about RoHS in English, try http://www.rohs.gov.uk/

Pep

10-10-2006, 07:38 AM

Guys, I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but I have heard an increasing amount of rumors that the US is not that far behind in adopting some of this. It's pretty damn serious stuff because a lot of manufactures have already gone under in EU due to these restrictions. God save us all.

ken

10-11-2006, 07:30 AM

I spent the last few days studying RoHS too.

Here is the URL for the 'Decision Tree' flowchart from the RoHS website,
http://www.rohs.gov.uk/DecisionTree.aspx

The following are snips from the URL above.

I just love this part that I got from the RoHS website, it really sounds like a loophole for anyone making acoustic/electric guitar pickups to me -

/snip
The directive does not apply to products that can still fulfil their main purpose without electricity. The example of this given by the Commission is the talking teddy bear that is still a teddy bear and can fulfil its main purpose as a comfort toy in the eyes of a child with the batteries removed.

Therefore, can it not be said that since the guitar does not actually need the pickup to fulfill its function, any pickup sold as part of that same guitar should not be covered?

Also, here is a loophole that may cover our pickups...

Spare parts for repair of products placed on the market before 1 July 2006 are exempt from the requirements of RoHS. The EC's 'Guide to the implementation of directives based on the New Approach and the Global Approach' (the 'blue book') available at http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/newapproach/legislation/guide/index.htm describes repairs on page 16 as “without changing the original performance, purpose or type” and “…replacing a defective or worn item by a spare part, which either is identical, or at least similar, to the original spare part (for example modifications may have taken place due to technical progress, or discontinued production of the old part). Thus, maintenance operations are basically excluded from the scope of the directives”. Therefore a product first placed on the market before 1 July 2006 that is subsequently modified (changing its function, performance or type) by the use of spare parts may be deemed a new product and need to comply.

However, in the case of the RoHS Directive, because extending product life is considered to have a positive environmental impact, modification of a product to enhance its function and therefore extend its life are excluded.

Pep - you may be right, too...

/snip
It's pretty damn serious stuff because a lot of manufactures have already gone under in EU due to these restrictions. God save us all.

Maybe it's my paranoia gland in hyperdrive, but wouldn't lots of small companies dying that can't comply with RoHS for some reason or another be really good news for the bigger ones who can? Hmmmm, could be....

Ken

Mark Hammer

10-11-2006, 06:40 PM

The irony of the RoHS concerns/standards become apparent in the content of Wolfe's note (well-drafted, incidentally).

At least part of the drive towards RoHS is spurred by the potential impact of the mountains of "throwaway consumer technology" ending up in garbage heaps or recycled for usable noble metals and such, often in developing nations that have lax environmental standards. The thought of all that lead entering the food chain or water system, simply because of the endless hunger for the next consumer toy, or because products like toasters and coffee-makers are produced under the assumption of a very short life-expectancy, is a bit too much to bear, so lead is moved out of those products for human environmental safety purposes. Makes perfect sense.

As Wolfe notes, though, not only is the amount of lead small, but the intent of his products, and the intent/expectation of his customers, is that the pickup will endure and be in active service for a MUCH longer time than virtually any piece of consumer electronics the RoHS people had in mind when the standards were drafted. In the grand scheme of things, the total amount of lead contributed to the environment if he continued using lead solder, would pale against the *trace* amounts of lead found in all those RoHS compliant $29 DVD players that will fall prey to mechanical breakdown and form a worldwide garbage mountain as big as the Sears tower a mere 5 years from now.

A key element in all of this is that more waste metals are entered into the global garbage heap by shortening the lifespan of the product than by extending it. I'm generally on board for environmental controls, but this one makes me scrunch up my face.

Alex/Tubewonder

10-11-2006, 08:21 PM

Somebody has to play the devils advocate. What about cheap far east imports? I am concerned with all those "guitar+amp" kits costing less than a quality handwound pickup. These sell to a mass market and end up in a garbage can after, what - about a year or two? In ROHS sense a pickup is a pickup is a pickup. I think it's time to stop complaining and face reality. ROHS is here and will soon be in US too. After all it's not something that somebody came up with over one night, it took a couple of years to work out and was not kept secret from the public during the process.

I wonder if spot bonding the magnet wire could work ?

ken

10-11-2006, 10:58 PM

I see your point about those '$29 cheap CD players'. We as a culture have become so addicted to having the newest, best and the most of everything that product lifespans are nowhere near as long as possible.

Take computers, for example... the computer I'm using right now has a sticker in the corner that says 'Designed for Windows '98' on it. For me, this is still a good computer because as long as it runs, I can get software and I can still surf the Web with it, I'll keep it. For others, it's last year's model and junk. I'm fascinated by the shrinking time a computer has once it comes out until it's superseded. Once it was years between new generations, but now it's about nine months or so. Soon, it won't just seem like your computer is obsolete before you bring it home, it will actually be that way.

All those underutilized computers, ipods, DVD players, etc. have to go somewhere, and China is the biggest buyer of scrapmetals on the planet. I have seen some of the photos of the piles of dead consumer goods and heard stories about the environmental byproducts of their own style of reclaiming materials from these goods.

We as musical instrument manufacturers are not only an almost immeasurably small fraction of the total wastestream, but IMHO every one of us designs and builds their products to last much more than ten years or so. We don't design our products to go into a $149 'Christmas gift' box with a guitar and amp made in Hostilistan. I think the problem is that those in authority had a problem to fix, and they did it. Unfortunately, they didn't seem to bother to differentiate between the amount of lead in a huge pile of cheap DVD players and that in a very very small pile of pickups. For them, lead is lead. For us, it's a very big deal.

Am I going to go to the RoHS standard? Eventually, I'll have to, just like everyone else. Market forces will see to that, I'm sure. But right now, it seems just a bit like the RoHS committee are very much overcompensating
for a problem that was overlooked for a long time.

Ken

(an English translation is available - email me at pickups@angeltone.com for details)

Mark Hammer

10-12-2006, 05:07 PM

Very cogent comments. RoHS is a good solution to a very big problem. I live near a place that recycles computers, and when you see the 10ft high shrink-wrapped pallets of cast-off 15" monitors bound for the dump, and multiply it by the tens of thousands of similar pallets world-wide, you start to wonder if it will be legal to sell or eat fish in 20 years' time, given the anticipated contaminants drifting into the food chain. Hell, for that matter, you can expect to be charged for every bag of waste you leave curb-side given how far that waste will have to be transported just to get to the far side of the city dump. The age of buying municipally-issued stickers to put on each bag of garbage ain't that far off folks, largely BECAUSE of all the cast-off technology left for the garbage-man that sits there and NEVER biodegrades.

Of course, if you use the sort of sledge hammer intended to drive in railroad spikes for tapping a finishing nail into place to hang a picture, chances are you will crush your finger and put a hole through the wall in the process. Manufacturers of small-scale goods intended to be long-life need a different sort of tool to address what could be a best practice in their own businesses. I don't know a lot about RoHS, but I suspect that in its current form it does not provide such a tool.

ken

10-13-2006, 06:58 AM

I try to be cogent if I can, but after being awake for eighteen or twenty hours at a stretch (like I was on Wednesday) the ability leaves rapidly.

I try to use 'old tech' as much as humanly possible, and I try to recycle as much as I can. My computers on the average are six years old, and I shop at rummage and estate sales for tools and computer parts. The interesting thing is that you don't need a new computer to run your biz if you don't need it. Most computers up to five or so years old or so are great for running a small business. I run my shop on $150 worth of old Apple Power Macs. I have a older nice HP printer for printing box labels and pamphlets, but the rest is all 'recycled' stuff I got from local college students. I bought a nice three year old Compaq laptop and Visual Basic 6 from a guy last year for experimenting with making a computer controlled winder 'just like Wolfe's' for only $50. Think about it.

I'm no granny glasses wearin' granola smokin' hippie either... just really cheap.

/snip
Hell, for that matter, you can expect to be charged for every bag of waste you leave curb-side given how far that waste will have to be transported just to get to the far side of the city dump.

Don't laugh... the city I live in is facing a 'garbage bag tax' and 'Garbage Nazis' right now. The city wants to tax us per month to throw our trash away, and charge us on our property tax bill to do it. We are no longer allowed to toss out furniture (even wood), non foodcan metals such as car parts, piles of newspapers can only weigh ten pounds or so each, etc. Computers and other WEEE stuff is right out. If Arlo Guthrie wrote 'Alice's Restaurant' about current events around here, he probably would have been shot first... and then made to pick up the garbage. I live in central WI too, not Los Angeles or NYC either.

I agree totally about the heavyhanded approach on RoHS, it sounds like a 'election year' sort of deal. You know... 'Quick, we have to do something to justify our existence to the voters... lead is bad, so let's ban lead!' For RoHS/WEEE to work, there has to be some mechanism for people like us who use lead for 'purely artistic' reasons. If you read my last post, maybe it is possible to convince the RoHS committee that we are actually selling upgrades to extend the lifetime of an instrument and keep it out of the trash. After all, the RoHS website DID say that 'any parts designed to be used to extend a product's life is considered to have a positive environmental impact, so modification of a product to enhance its function and therefore extend its life are excluded' from RoHS.

I take this to say that since we actually DO make parts designed to 'enhance its (a musical instrument's) function and therefore extend its life', we shoud be excluded from RoHS. Is there any way to prove this to the RoHS committee?

Ken

Just Bob

10-13-2006, 01:07 PM

Best to stay informed about this. Even though RoHS is not a currently a requirement in the US, you can bet it will be. The EPA can make these sort of regulations very quickly and quietly. They banned oil-based paints in counties that had air-quality problems. I could just pop over to the next county and get paint and thinner. Earlier this year, I went to get some more. Not a can on the shelf anywhere. I never saw a word about it on the news, but they enacted a state-wide ban on oil-based paints. You can only buy it in quart cans now. Soon it will be banned entirely. Urethanes and oil varnishes and stains too.

There are some counties here where you can't buy cheap imported equipment. They enacted regulations banning the sale of any electrical equipment that isn't UL approved. A new machinery store opened up with lathes and mills and stuff. The county came in and told them they couldn't sell them. A whole section of the store is blocked off with yellow tape. "Not for sale". The people who run the store had no idea about this when they opened.

I really doubt there will be much in the way of RoHS exceptions. Almost everybody can justify an exception somehow. The exceptions will quickly outnumber the rules and make them impossible to enforce. Most everything wears out and gets trashed eventually. You can't just push the problem a decade or two into the future. It will eventually crop up again. I think some of the rules are extreme but we better start getting used to them.

Stan H

10-13-2006, 07:50 PM

So, how long ya think before people start seeking that Pre-RoHS tone?:rolleyes:

~Stan

Alex/Tubewonder

10-13-2006, 10:14 PM

So, how long ya think before people start seeking that Pre-RoHS tone?:rolleyes:

~Stan

Don't worry, somebody will put out a modelling amp claiming it nails it.
With lead gone, heavy metal sound will be harder to get :p

ken

10-13-2006, 10:27 PM

No it won't... it will be replaced with bismuth, or maybe depleted uranium ;)

Ken

Luijo

10-14-2006, 11:33 AM

Will this ban include Led Zeppelin?;)

ken

10-14-2006, 10:04 PM

Ol' Robert will finally end up unleded.
:D
Ken

ken

10-16-2006, 12:48 AM

Seriously, anyone who cares about the long term effects of RoHS compliance may want to read this next part. I got this from one of ampage's own advertisers...

/snip
Although alternate high-performance materials are quickly being developed, Sn is still the most widely used Pb-replacement metal. It is known to grow "whiskers", or filamentary corrosion, which can eventually short out the electronics. This could cause catastrophic problems in high-reliability, long-life applications such as satellite systems, medical implants, military weapons, and heavy equipment.

Other pure metal and alloy substitues, such as Ag, Cu, Zn, Bi, In, Sb and Cd, are also potential causes of failure for electronic equipment if not used properly. These substitute materials must be developed, tested and monitored as quickly as possible to meet high-performance demands.

Ken

JGundry

10-16-2006, 01:07 AM

I tried the Kester #257 on some 42AWG plain enamel I was using for humbuckers today. I was pleasantly surprised by how well it worked. I had no problem with blobbing and was able to get in and out quickly. I didn't' have to use liquid flux. I just tinned the pigtail first and always made sure the tip was clean and hot enough. I'm not going to sweat it unless coils start failing. I was in and out so quickly I doubt there was a problem of too much heat. Just make sure you use a wash free flux to avoid failures.

Stan H

10-18-2006, 04:11 PM

JGundry

10-19-2006, 03:05 AM

Sorry, yes #275.

Two dyslexics walk into a bra.

leftywinder

10-25-2006, 01:24 AM

One of my first hobbys was making fishing lures of lead, did this for a number of years, then got a letter from one of the mold makers here in US, saying EPA was going to ban lead fishing sinkers/lures. The reason was that shotgunners in the US were poisioning ducks, which would eat a few of the pellets, and die of lead poisioning. Turns out they only wanted to ban the making of home-made lures weighing more than 1 oz., this way they could ban the making of bullets. Pure political bull s__t. This proposal was defeated by the efforts of the NRA. As far as using lead solder goes, you just need good ventilation, I have melted and hand poured sinkers for many years with no ill effects, have been tested for blood lead levels and found to be well below toxic effect levels. This is just pure crap.

David Schwab

10-25-2006, 04:25 PM

I think the issue is toxic materials ending up in land fills, not so much for the worker.

Lead in the environment is a big issue for infants and children more than for adults. When my son was about 1 his doctor found higher than normal lead levels in his blood, and a whole scan of our house had to be done. Even though we had no peeling paint, there was lead based paint under many layers of non lead paint that had to be removed.

They never did figure out where the lead in his system was coming from, but removing the paint from the wood work in the house and repainting seem to do the trick.

I'd think shotgun pellets cause more lead in the environment than solder... but the NRA is just evil. :mad: