DOUBLE Calibrated single coils?

[ken]

I thought you guys might like this one -

I was reading this month's Vintage Guitar magazine, and on page 87 there's a
Rio Grande Pickups ad stating that they not only 'standard calibrate their pickups for DC resistance in ohms', they also calibrate their magnet diameters too!

1/4" bridge
7/32" middle
3/16" neck

Just when I thought I heard everything...:rolleyes:

Ken

[Ruel]

What about the wax that they use for potting? Do they say anything about calibrating the percentage of beeswax to parafin?

[ken]

Don't be picking on that beeswax... That there beeswax is special, they get it only from naturalized African killer bees 'for that real killer tone'. :rolleyes:

I guess some people have to have something to show their gear is 'better'
than other people's, even if their playing isn't.

Ken

[Spence]

The company directors wanted their condoms calibrated too but they found 'small' was more than adequate.

Still it will be interesting to see if the sales take off.....

[Mouthurst]

Ive heard that if the pickup leads have an odd number of strands, then the even order harmonics are enhanced, an even number of strands, then the odd order harmonics are enhanced.

Curious as I I would have thought the reverse was true.;) :rolleyes:

[ken]

You forgot to count the number of strands of thread used in the 'cloth' hookup wire's insulation, how far the magnet poles stick out of the bottom of the pickup, or what shift at the copper wire plant made the coil wire a pickup company used.

I guess it's anything but the pickup's actual tone that matters...

Ken

[Ruel]

Ive heard that if the pickup leads have an odd number of strands, then the even order harmonics are enhanced, an even number of strands, then the odd order harmonics are enhanced.

Curious as I I would have thought the reverse was true.;) :rolleyes:

Don't forget the direction of the twist of the strands, clockwise or counterclockwise. Man, this thing could go on forever.

[Spence]

Recently released top secret files have been released that show Fender was into the occult and deliberately made Strat pickups South up. Why? Because...

Positive/South Pole:
Stresses the body
Increases acidity
Reduces oxygen
Increases cellular swelling

Nah, I'm joking of course but this nonsense is according to the goons that sell biomagnetic healing products.

[Mark Hammer]

Now boys, play nice.

Like all of you, I grow weary of the claims made in ad blurbs, and the vapid language used in a great many reviews. Admittedly, working from DCR only is perhaps a less than optimal way to assure consistency across pickups produced. At the same time, while "calibrated" is perhaps the wrong wording to use, wouldn't differences in diameter be pertinent to pickup tone, with respect to sensing area "shape"? I seem to recall some work posted on the old Ampage site (was it by Joe Gwinn?) looking at mere bevelling of the top of the polepiece and variations in tonal response (or at least field shape). So if magnet shape and diameter is pertinent (though one must temper this with polepiece height, composition and charge), why wouldn't a difference of 1/16" between neck and bridge polepieces be pertinent? I mean that is a 25% difference in diameter. Surely that is as pertinent to tone as a 10% difference in number of turns between neck and middle pickup?

Or am I missing something here?

[Joe Gwinn]

Now boys, play nice.

Like all of you, I grow weary of the claims made in ad blurbs, and the vapid language used in a great many reviews. Admittedly, working from DCR only is perhaps a less than optimal way to assure consistency across pickups produced. At the same time, while "calibrated" is perhaps the wrong wording to use, wouldn't differences in diameter be pertinent to pickup tone, with respect to sensing area "shape"? I seem to recall some work posted on the old Ampage site (was it by Joe Gwinn?) looking at mere bevelling of the top of the polepiece and variations in tonal response (or at least field shape). I don't recall doing anything like this, although we have danced around the edges of such questions. I do recall commenting on the claimed effects of a patented polepiece design, the one with hollow pole slugs (US 4,624,172).

SK did some FEMM analysis of the field shapes around a pickup. I think the pictures are still up on his website.

So if magnet shape and diameter is pertinent (though one must temper this with polepiece height, composition and charge), why wouldn't a difference of 1/16" between neck and bridge polepieces be pertinent? I mean that is a 25% difference in diameter. Surely that is as pertinent to tone as a 10% difference in number of turns between neck and middle pickup?

Or am I missing something here?My guess is that with a good ear one can in A/B tests detect almost all such changes. The real question is if such differences matter in any real way.

[ken]

Hello...

I originally posted this thread because I was tired of some of the ad claims I see in media about pickups. I admit that some of the things people say about some products are pretty silly, and some seem to spend more on marketing than the actual pickups themselves.

I built the .195 mag pickups, and I did hear some difference. I don't know myself
if there is enough there to justify retooling, but I did have enough of an open mind to make a 'one off' and test the theory for myself. I will have to do some more research, that's all.

Ken

Spence - 'Increases cellular swelling'??? You mean people can actually get fat from playing stock Fender pickups? :eek: :D

[David Schwab]

Bill Bartolini has two patents that have to do with the field shape over the pickup, and in his case, for sensing the string in a very asymmetrical manner (which was the basis for his Hi-A pickups). It's an interesting read, and he discusses the sound of round poles verses a flat top square and parallelogram pole pieces.

In his Hi-A pickup he created a low, flat field, that had its lines of flux parallel to the top of the pickup, therefore sensing more of the up and down motion of the string, as it cut through the flux lines, than the side to side motion. He felt this approximated the motion of a acoustic guitar's bridge/soundboard.

He claims round poles, like on a strat, pick up the string in both directions, and have a more "plucky" sound. This makes sense if you look at the field shape.

From this you can get an idea on the width of the field, as well as the hight will effect the tone... also a field extending way past the string doesn't really do much. You can play around with a lose pickup wired up to an amp to see that moving it more than a few inches away from the strings really doesn't produce any sound. But a high field might expose the string to more vertical lines of flux, which would likely pickup more side to side motion.

http://sgdlutherie.com/images/bartolini.gif

I don't know how much effect something like a bevel would make, but a larger surface area of the pole, as you would find in a larger diameter magnet, probably would make a difference.

But who knows.. everything might make a difference. :)

[Mark Hammer]

Thanks for your patience and clarification, Joe. I knew it was one of "the regulars". Just didn't know *which* one of them.

The point about differences mattering in a "real way" is cogent. By the time a guitar signal gets pushed through cables, pedals, amps, and speakers, differences in *clean* tone (i.e., pickup directly into a scope) may well disappear.

On the other hand, and PLEASE correct me if I'm way off here, wouldn't magnet diameter be one potential strategy to try out as a means of trying to provide equal output from the neck, middle and bridge positions with the same coil parameters? Or am I once again missing something important?

I'm basing all of this on the presumption that, whether worthwhile or not, Rio Grande has gone to the trouble of obtaining inventory for making those pickups for deliberate strategic reasons. Hype for marketing purposes is one thing, but maintaining separate inventories of polepiece diameters is an investment that needs to be recouped, so there has to be *some* method to the madness. Doesn't mean the method necessarily amounts to anything noteworthy, just that they're doing it for a reason, and I'd like to know what the reason (and reasoning) is.

Thanks for the Bartolini pics, Dave. Interesting stuff. Do you know the patent number? I'd like to see more about it.

[Joe Gwinn]

Thanks for your patience and clarification, Joe. I knew it was one of "the regulars". Just didn't know *which* one of them.Quite welcome. There are many patents claiming great improvement by somehow shaping the magnetic fields, and I bet all these approaches work to some degree. And I bet I don't recall all the discussions.

The point about differences mattering in a "real way" is cogent. By the time a guitar signal gets pushed through cables, pedals, amps, and speakers, differences in *clean* tone (i.e., pickup directly into a scope) may well disappear.It's a tough business. We can detect and measure many things that we cannot hear, and we cannot detect and measure many things that we can hear. So, part of the art of engineering is knowing what matters and how much it matters. And, if you are lucky, knowing why.

On the other hand, and PLEASE correct me if I'm way off here, wouldn't magnet diameter be one potential strategy to try out as a means of trying to provide equal output from the neck, middle and bridge positions with the same coil parameters? Well, making the poles bigger will probably increase output, but adjusting the spacing between pole and string is far more effective. But if one is too effective, the magnetic pull on the string causes wolf tones.

Or am I once again missing something important?Well, yes. We all do this. It reminds me of the famous quote from John Wanamaker (of department store fame): "I know that half of my advertising budget is wasted. The problem is that I don't know which half."

I'm basing all of this on the presumption that, whether worthwhile or not, Rio Grande has gone to the trouble of obtaining inventory for making those pickups for deliberate strategic reasons. Hype for marketing purposes is one thing, but maintaining separate inventories of polepiece diameters is an investment that needs to be recouped, so there has to be *some* method to the madness. Doesn't mean the method necessarily amounts to anything noteworthy, just that they're doing it for a reason, and I'd like to know what the reason (and reasoning) is. If you are looking for a certain specific tone, everything in the recipe matters, not necessarily equally, but audibly. Easiest way is to follow the receipe exactly, even if one could with some effort find a way to adjust the recipes to handle a change elsewhere. By the same token, if you start out with one size of magnets (or kind of baseplates, or poles or whatever), and adjust elsewhere, you can also find recipes to yield desired tones.

[ken]

And I thought Leo beveled his magnets because his pickup assemblers were having trouble putting their magnets in straight...

IMHO RG probably got a deal on the other diameters of magnets, and decided to use them because 'nobody else was'.

ken

[David Schwab]

On the other hand, and PLEASE correct me if I'm way off here, wouldn't magnet diameter be one potential strategy to try out as a means of trying to provide equal output from the neck, middle and bridge positions with the same coil parameters? Or am I once again missing something important?

How about larger magnets under the thin strings and smaller magnets under the thick strings? ;) I think magnet diameter would indeed even the output between neck and bridge positions. Larger magnets should give more output (probably a different tone as well).

Thanks for the Bartolini pics, Dave. Interesting stuff. Do you know the patent number? I'd like to see more about it.

Yes... they are 3983777 and 3983778.

Willi Stich (aka Bill Lawrence) has a slew of interesting patents as well (4364295, 3902394, 3916751, 5789691, 3915048, 5376754, 3711619). I'm not sure how they would all sound, but he has some interesting ideas, and goes into great detail in his patents.

[David Schwab]

And I thought Leo beveled his magnets because his pickup assemblers were having trouble putting their magnets in straight...

That's what I always heard. I don't think it was done for the way they sound. Leo did a lot of things for ease of manufacturing... Look at the first Broadcasters... bolt on neck, no fingerboard, slab body with little contouring. He picked alder because it was inexpensive and easy to get, and finished well, and ash for the grain. The first one was pine! He ended up with a very different sounding guitar, from something like a Gibson, and it happened to be a good sound. :)

IMHO RG probably got a deal on the other diameters of magnets, and decided to use them because 'nobody else was'.

Gee, I don't know. It doesn't seem like a bad idea. People have been using large diameter magnets in bass pickups for a while... like the Duncan 1/4 pounders, and the Music Man bass pickups, to get a fuller tone.

[Zhangliqun]

1/4" rods definitely = more beef. Just made a pu with them. Needs to be taller though to accommodate all the wire if you're stubborn like me and want to stay with #42 wire.

[SPOONMAN]

Hey guys...new here!

Just found it...

Interesting...informative...and I'm getting a headache trying to follow it! lol

Pickups are like cooking or making sauces...it's all in the recipe.

That's why we all have our favorite restaurant!

Will check in when I can.

Dave Wintz
Rio Grande Pickups
aka SPOONMAN (like to fish!)

[Peter Naglitsch]

So, Dave (Wintz that is) can you give us the background for the story that has been debated? Reserch or a good deal on different sized magnets);)

PS, and welcome DS

[Possum]

Well come on there is a rational design thought behind what they are doing. On bridge you got massive quarter inch magnets which will give a beefier darker tone and up on neck skinny magnets which will give a cleaner more articulate tone, did you guys miss that? Dig out your LCR meters, its real.....

[madialex]

Hey guys...new here!

Just found it...

Interesting...informative...and I'm getting a headache trying to follow it! lol

Pickups are like cooking or making sauces...it's all in the recipe.

That's why we all have our favorite restaurant!

Will check in when I can.

Dave Wintz
Rio Grande Pickups
aka SPOONMAN (like to fish!)


Welcome SPOONMAN, well we have gotten everyone in the Biz except ol LD I dont think he'll show though

[Peter Naglitsch]

Well come on there is a rational design thought behind what they are doing. On bridge you got massive quarter inch magnets which will give a beefier darker tone and up on neck skinny magnets which will give a cleaner more articulate tone, did you guys miss that? Dig out your LCR meters, its real.....

Well, of cause there will be a difference in sound between different sized mags. As with different alnico types and magnets charged to different levels. It would be very interesting to get Spoonmans own opinion on the difference in sound between the pickups he make with different mags.

The ide is very similar to winding the bridge pickup slightly hotter in a "calibrated" set. I do that all the time

[SPOONMAN]

All I will tell you is that it was what we like to call a "happy accident"............meaning we stumbled onto it. It seems most good ideas occur that way............

Dave

[Rosewood]

I don't think this is new since SD had made the 1/4 pounders years ago. They did have 1/4" mags didn't they? Add that to the fact that most people have complained for years about the weak, thin bridge pickup.

[Possum]

"Dirty Harry" Dave Stephens here....

hey watch it when you guys use SD, Stephens Design here :-)

The truth is that strat bridge pickups are a poor design, they were just kind of thrown in there without much thought. The middle pickup and neck pickups are great but if you follow Leo's recipe of make 'em all alike, its just too icepicky for most people. The solution is thinner wire and more of it, shorter coil height and thick magnets. Leo got the tele bridge pickup right but the strat nooooooo......especially with the magnets we get these days....

[Rosewood]

Sorry bout that Dave, I've reached the age where I can hide my own Easter eggs if you know what I mean.

[black_labb]

its funny that this came up now, as im going to get some odd sized magnets when the magnet place is open. http://www.magnet.com.au/products.php?sectionId=4&product=alnico&subSectionId=12&subSectionName=Rods heres the alnico rod magets they have. nice little selection for someone experementing with pups a bit, especially when they are within driving distance.

ill be getting some 6mm rods (20mm long) for the bridge, as the guitar will have the bridge and the neck pups acting as the 2 halves of a humbucker (as well as some other options) so i want to have the same winds (for equal hum cancelling) but still have the bridge stronger. the coils are only 6kohms each so the 6mm poles should stop the bridge from being too shrill when played alone.

ill also be making some bass pups for a bass im making, probably using the 8mm rods (atleast for one of the pups) and maybe some jazz bass style pups for the other. they will be around half strength (4kohms or so) and used with a simple preamp, or in series for a different sound and more output to use without the preamp.

i love designing things. now i just need to finish the projects (im making a bass, a guitar and an amp all at the same time, and i really have no idea which i will finish first or last)

[David Schwab]

I don't think this is new since SD had made the 1/4 pounders years ago. They did have 1/4" mags didn't they? Add that to the fact that most people have complained for years about the weak, thin bridge pickup.

That wasn't the point here. The three pickups each have different diameter magnets. Duncan does do 1/4" mags, but not three different sizes.

[David Schwab]

The truth is that strat bridge pickups are a poor design, they were just kind of thrown in there without much thought. The middle pickup and neck pickups are great but if you follow Leo's recipe of make 'em all alike, its just too icepicky for most people.

And who's idea was it to not have a tone control on the bridge pickup? That just makes it worse!

[Rosewood]

Got it David, I guess my point was players have been putting 1/4 pounders in the bridge position for years, doing they're on calibrating so to speak. I'm not trying to take away from the fact that someone offers a package system.

[Spence]

"Dirty Harry" Dave Stephens here....

hey watch it when you guys use SD, Stephens Design here :-)

The truth is that strat bridge pickups are a poor design, they were just kind of thrown in there without much thought. The middle pickup and neck pickups are great but if you follow Leo's recipe of make 'em all alike, its just too icepicky for most people. The solution is thinner wire and more of it, shorter coil height and thick magnets. Leo got the tele bridge pickup right but the strat nooooooo......especially with the magnets we get these days....

Let us not forget that the Strat was supposed to be a replacement for the Telecaster. The bridge pickup is perfectly useable and compares well to a Tele that has the tone control bypass circuit in position 1 on the 3-way.

A simple 1-wire modification to a 5-way switch will give you a tone control on the bridge pickup at a fraction of the cost of any other modification and will not spoil the look or value etc.

[ken]

Hello...

Spence is right, the Strat has no lead pickup tone control as originally designed because Leo loved the 'take off' tone players got from the Broadcaster's lead pickup with no tone control.

Like Spence, I put a pull pot on my Strats so I can use the rhythm and lead pickups at the same time, then the rhythm tone control works on the lead pickup too. It's one of my favorite sounds - great for rockabilly.

ken

[David Schwab]

I like to wire Strats so the middle pickup tone works on the lead, and the other tone works on the other two pickups.

The big difference between the Tele and Strat is the Tele has a larger lead pickup, and it's placed farther from the bridge.

The other issue is the silly slant on the pickups. It thins out the high strings too much. I like angling them the other way.

[Sock Puppet]

I like to wire Strats so the middle pickup tone works on the lead, and the other tone works on the other two pickups.

The big difference between the Tele and Strat is the Tele has a larger lead pickup, and it's placed farther from the bridge.

The other issue is the silly slant on the pickups. It thins out the high strings too much. I like angling them the other way.

An evening in at your house sounds so much better than an evening in at mine.

Really though, where did that angle come from?

An adjustable one would be nice.

S.

[David Schwab]

An evening in at your house sounds so much better than an evening in at mine.

Oh believe me, I have to squeeze in lutherie time with a toddler and teenager in the house.. oh and the misses too!

But the wife lets me have a corner of the kitchen as my laboratory/workshop! Right now I do pickups/electronics and small repair work at home, and the big messy stuff on weekends at a garage workshop.

There are guitars and basses all over the place though, as well as my Oberheim synth set up next to the computer/studio are of the living room... Yeah a musician lives here!

Really though, where did that angle come from?

I guess to get the bass strings deeper and the treble strings brighter. Probably seemed like a good idea at the time, and might have worked better with the strings and amps at the time.

An adjustable one would be nice.

Rick Turner has a guitar with a rotating pickup, and these is a bass with a pickup that moves like a windshield wiper (in case that term doesn't translate to non US english speakers, it's the thing that cleans the rain off the front glass window on your automobile. :D )