speaker suggestion

[weeping6]

Hello all,
I wanted some suggestions by anyone with an opinion on types of speakers for a Fender Deluxe Reverb build I'm working on (AB763 circuit). I understand the tonal voice of a speaker is very subjective regarding the player's taste (what he/she wants and for what reason) but I don't have the money to go and buy 10 different types of high end guitar speakers and try them all out so I wanted to use everyone else's wisdom and experience.

Basically, I'm building the AB763 circuit and staying as close to original as current values and quality of components will allow. However, I'm not necessarily sold on having it sound EXACTLY like a '65 so that's where my question on speaker brands comes in. It originally came with an Oxford speaker, I've thought on buying either a Weber, Jensen repro, or go with one of the new Eminence models (they have a number of different ones now). However has anyone out there substituted a british made speaker say a celestion, in a Fender? And if so what did it sound like? Also, anyone do roughly the same build I'm working on and what did you go with and how do you think it sounds?

Thanks for any words.
-David

[Earl Norton]

What do you need in clean headroom? If you need a real efficient speaker, your choices become fewer without having to consider subjective measurements. (might make it easier.)

[weeping6]

Well that's why I asked the question, I wanted some information on all fronts. Which speakers color in certain ways and what are those ways, which stay clean, which are truest to the vintage year they're designed after, what changes in tonal quality are present in new speakers made from high quality manufacturers, tube type + speaker type tonal blends, etc.

Thanks.
-David

[Earl Norton]

I prefer lots of options and the fewest limitations with my amps. It's personal preference but I like the JBL d120f for a delux type amp, it delivers lots of spls per watt and that might come in handy. It is a bit brighter than most (due to the metal dust cap) but I think you can tame it on the front end or not, as you prefer. Old style ALNICO mag jenson's will sound good for certain applications, but then limit you in others and not deliver the head room.

Other high spl speakers from EV and Eminence and weber will deliver the head room but be somewhat darker.

Some players rave over speaker breakup but I think it sounds like a blown speaker and is generally not controllable as is preamp and power amp overdrive. MHO.

[weeping6]

I agree with you regarding speaker breakup. I'd prefer to rely on the amp circuit for any type of OD rather than running my speaker hard. One time I read an article on Kenny Wayne Shepherd, he apparently uses big EVs in his Fenders so that he can avoid any speaker break up when he's got the amp cranked to 10. I've seen him live several times and man his sound is killer!

I just recently built an EL84 based amp that I wanted to OD quick but still maintain a solid bottom end. I built the cab as well and closed the back up except for one hole in the back with a length that went from the first tube to the last tube. The speaker I chose was an Eminence Legend 12". In the end the sound is very bright when the treble of the amp is full on but the bass gets a little grumbly up past ~2:00. I'm not sure if that's b/c I need more PS capacitance or the close-backed cab or both but I really like how bright the whole system is. With a single coil equiped strat is sounds really good.

I think what I would be looking for is something that could handle tight low end and have enough highs to be just a little too much then I could just back the high end off w/ the tone controls of the amp.

-David

[Thorny]

If you want it to sound like a great blackface deluxe reverb should sound I suggest the weber 12F150 - it is very close to a vintage Jensen C12N and has traditional blackface tone - maybe a bit better efficiency and bottom end but it does not sound boomy. I have used them for years to replace the oxfarts as the have a tendency to crap out.

The alnico version sounds great too, but compresses a bit more in my opinion (12A150). Not a bad thing at all, it actually sounds great. But it does cost a lot more.

Stay away from the current Italian Jensen C12Ns as the one I had did not distort in a pleasing way. It was VERY efficient - it was extremely loud. But it would not distort until it was extremely loud - and when it did distort it was harsh in my opinion. I have heard others say they really like it - but I sure didn't.

I am sure you can get many other speakers that will do a reasonable job. But I have had great experiences with the weber 12F150. I think a weber signature 12B would sound great too if you are on a budget - I have had good experience with that one as well.

[stokes]

I'm with Thorny on the Weber 12F150.Got one in a 5E3 and it is very tight.I found the Jensen very harsh.Also had a 10" Jensen in another amp and found it to be harsh also.If you email Ted at Weber he will give you his thoughts on how his different speakers will perform in your situation,he is very helpful.

[weeping6]

Ahh, you've got me salivating over this Weber speaker. I've heard great things about them and have seen a number of them in the boutique-ish amps of today. Yeah, the extra bottom ends sounds really attractive. That's what I want is something with a noticeable amount of bottom end that is tight but doesn't sound muffled so that means clear on the higher frequencies as well.

To Stokes: good suggestion on emailing Weber. I had thought about doing that and I think I will. Thanks.

-David

[hasserl]

I agree with Thorny and Stokes about the Weber 12F150. For the traditional BF Fender tone, that is the speaker to go with.

If however you want to do something different I would suggest you try the Eminence Tonker. It is a British flavored speaker, but it is not very aggresive, much less so than the 12F150 mentioned. It will not breakup, even when pushed hard. It holds together very nicely with a good tight bottom end. And when it comes to clean tone the Tonker is king, there is no better speaker for clean tone than a Tonker, absolutely gorgeous, and sparkly, beautiful. It's not the traditional bf sound, but it is really, really good. I highly recommend it.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Just my opinion but the finest sounding Deluxe Reverb amps I've heard, frequently have reissue Celestion G12H30s in them.
Just a great speaker.
A second choice would be the MOJO BV30H, which is an American made speaker using the same basket and Kurt-Mueller cone that Celestion uses in the G12H30 but I'm told the voice coil is wound here in the USA.
And, like I said, it is built here in the USA on the East Coast.
The WeberVST 12F150 is a very good speaker too but it has been my experience WeberVST speakers take quite a while to loosen up and blossom, especially when used in a 20 watt amp like a Deluxe Reverb... the MOJO BV30H sounds great right out of the box and hard to beat for $83.00.

[bob p]

I'd like to second two of the opinions that have already been offered -- first, Bruce is spon-on aout the G12H30 70th Anniversary reissue sounding great with a BF Deluxe. Although a lot of people don't like celestions in fender amps, its bottom end is nice and tight and it doesn't display the flabbiness in bass response that's so common with the speakers that normally go into little fender amps. Overall, the response of that speaker is very smooth, it has nice tight bass, and it doesn't have the annoyong icepick midrange hump that so many celestions (like the V30) are famous for. Although its not a speaker that would immediately come to mind when we're thinking Deluxe, its definitely a speaker worth considering.

The other thing I'd like to say is that hasserl is right about the Tonker. Its a surprisingly good stay-clean speaker, and when paired with a little 6L6 amp like a Vibrolux and a Telecaster, its truly impressive -- you really get to hear the power tubes barking. Another eminence to consider if you'd like a more american clean tone is the Red White and Blue. Personally, I'm a big fan of the EVM speakers paired up with 6L6 Fender amps for the SRV and Shepherd types of tones, but the Tonker and the RWB are worth looking into as they could get you into the same zone at a much lower cost.

All things considered, this is a great time to be looking for speakers. You have lots of choices available. Have fun.

[Chris / CMW amps]

Celestion G12H30 (ann.), like bob p said regarding the sound and also pretty efficient for more (clean) volume.

Altough I probably will use an Celestion Alnico Gold (50 W) if wanted/needed, a buddy just replaced the H30 in a CMW DR replica with a Celestion Alnico Blue (15 W). He really likes the details in the midrange.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

I have not heard it yet and don't personally know anyone who has tried the Celestion AlNiCo Gold yet but other have told me it is all hype and not the speaker they thought it would be... all rumors to me now though.

[bob p]

I have not heard it yet and don't personally know anyone who has tried the Celestion AlNiCo Gold yet but other have told me it is all hype and not the speaker they thought it would be... all rumors to me now though.

I haven't heard it yet either, and I'm also looking forward to hearing whther the Gold has the goods or whether its just marketing hype. Lots of people have tried to make higher powered AlNiCo speakers, but they've all ended up sounding different from a low-powered speaker like the original Jensens or the Celestion Blue.

Bruce, have you heard the Eminence Red Fang? I haven't heard it in person, I've only read about it. If you have personal experience, I'd love to hear it. Thanks.

[TD_Madden]

I'm using a RedFang in a 6L6'd Mission Tweedy (upgraded OT). Sounds really good, but have to use the small-bottle 6L6s due to clearance problems in that amp. Should work (and fit) just fine in a DR.

[rocket]

How does the celestion classic lead (80W) compare to the more vintage speakers as the G12H and G12M, and the Vintage30?
Is it suitable for an open 1x12 cabinet and a small amp (deluxe etc)?

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Yes I've bought and used about 18 of them now after hearing the first one or two.
They are not quite as sensitive (or loud under exact same conditions) as a real Celestion Bull Dog. Maybe not quite as good, but they still sound excellent.
The price has crept up on them now at around $150.00 each, but a while back, they were an absolute GREAT deal at around $117.00 to $125.00 each and I wish I would have bought a gross of them.
For my taste, I think they sound just a bit better then the Tone Tubby speakers that I have heard, which had a very slightly darker sound to me... not as much upper freq bite for my old ears.
I think they are as good as the $175 Weber, 30 watt P12B Blue Dog, (another excellent speaker) and the Red Fang seems to handle more power then the 30 watt Weber .... all with no ghost notes, cone cry or edge yowl.
My personal 5E3 Deluxe has a Weber Blue Dog P12B in it and I have two 16 ohm Red Fangs, wired in parallel, installed in an old VOX 2x12 cabinet for a refurbed vintage VOX AC50. That combination takes names and totally kicks ass!!

[TD_Madden]

Anyone tried North Coast Music's "Black Dog" speakers? Supposedly a ceramic take on the Bulldogs....

[bob p]

My personal 5E3 Deluxe has a Weber Blue Dog P12B in it and I have two 16 ohm Red Fangs, wired in parallel, installed in an old VOX 2x12 cabinet for a refurbed vintage VOX AC50. That combination takes names and totally kicks ass!!
Thanks for your experience, Bruce. I have been thinking about doing something very similar. I have a pair of the 16-ohm 15-watt Celestions in parallel in a 2x12 cab at 8-oms and I'm always afraid of blowing them up. I'd like more power handling, but I think it would be a bit ridiculous to move to a 4x12 setup just to get 60-watts of power handling. I had thought about trying a 3x12 setup by adding an 8-ohm 30-watt Red Fang to create a 4-ohm load. From what you've said, it sounds like it would be worth trying.

[Steve A.]

Just my opinion but the finest sounding Deluxe Reverb amps I've heard, frequently have reissue Celestion G12H30s in them.
Just a great speaker.
A second choice would be the MOJO BV30H, which is an American made speaker using the same basket and Kurt-Mueller cone that Celestion uses in the G12H30 but I'm told the voice coil is wound here in the USA.
And, like I said, it is built here in the USA on the East Coast.
The WeberVST 12F150 is a very good speaker too but it has been my experience WeberVST speakers take quite a while to loosen up and blossom, especially when used in a 20 watt amp like a Deluxe Reverb... the MOJO BV30H sounds great right out of the box and hard to beat for $83.00.

I was just checking the Mojo site and it looks like that speaker is available only in 16 ohms- is that true? So have you tried any of the other Mojo speakers... just wondering what you thought about them.

Fender has been using the Jensen C12K speaker for the past few years in their DRRI's and it seems to work a lot better than the C12N's that were used previously (and were generally thought to be too bright). I took the C12K out of mine and put in a Jenson P12Q, which I like for the cleaner blues tones, but all of the speakers mentioned in this thread sound tempting! LOL

Steve Ahola

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

I have bought and used dozens of the BV-30H and the BV-30V in 8 ohms so I know they have them made in both zeds.

You must have just skipped over or missed them.

http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/item.asp?pid=18088&pg=45004&id=9911210

[Chris / CMW amps]

A buddy (with too much $ :) ) did compare the Celestion Blue and Gold and the differences were very small according to him. Want to compare them myself too...

[Steve A.]

I have bought and used dozens of the BV-30H and the BV-30V in 8 ohms so I know they have them made in both zeds.

You must have just skipped over or missed them.

http://www.mojomusicalsupply.com/item.asp?pid=18088&pg=45004&id=9911210

Bruce:

I guess my eyes must be going out in my old age... I *thought* I looked at all 30 entries on their speaker page, but I guess I missed that one! :eek: So what applications do you recommend the BV-30V for? Would that be like a Vintage 30? How about their BV-25M?

Thanks!

Steve Ahola

P.S. So is there some order to the Mojotone listings? They don't seem to be sorted alphabetically, or by stock number or by price... (I just dl'd their catalog- much better...)

[bob p]

A buddy (with too much $ :) ) did compare the Celestion Blue and Gold and the differences were very small according to him. Want to compare them myself too...
I'd be interested in hearing the difference in person, as all I've been able to read so far have been third-hand reports.

I'm a little bit surprised that anyone could pronounce a brand-new Gold as sounding very much like a Blue with so little time having passed since the
Gold's introduction. Golds have only been out around here for a couple of weeks, and its hard to imagine that anyone could have already broken one in well enough to have formed a meaningful opinion on it.

By any chance was your friend comparing the new Golds to new Blues or the new Golds to older, broken-in Blues? IME new speakers all sound harsh and bright, and in the first case it would seem kind of pointless to form an opinion comparing two different models that are both brand new. I guess it would also be difficult to compare a new Gold to an old Blue. So I guess I'm going to take the opinions I read with a grain of salt until I can get my ears on some good specimens for A/B comparison.

Either way, if your buddy can offer more info, I'd love to hear more.

[Chris / CMW amps]

I'd be interested in hearing the difference in person, as all I've been able to read so far have been third-hand reports.

I'm a little bit surprised that anyone could pronounce a brand-new Gold as sounding very much like a Blue with so little time having passed since the
Gold's introduction. Golds have only been out around here for a couple of weeks, and its hard to imagine that anyone could have already broken one in well enough to have formed a meaningful opinion on it.

By any chance was your friend comparing the new Golds to new Blues or the new Golds to older, broken-in Blues? IME new speakers all sound harsh and bright, and in the first case it would seem kind of pointless to form an opinion comparing two different models that are both brand new. I guess it would also be difficult to compare a new Gold to an old Blue. So I guess I'm going to take the opinions I read with a grain of salt until I can get my ears on some good specimens for A/B comparison.

Either way, if your buddy can offer more info, I'd love to hear more.

Both bought at the same time, you can get the Gold over here in western Europe since about two months...

[Manic]

I recently scored a 1968-69 band master for $350 :D. The reason for the big grin is that the 212 closed back cab is loaded JBL D120f's. It's been sitting in a guys basement for 30 years, untouched.
Ive been lookin for speakers to put in My 5E3x2. So I tried the JBL's. OMG!
I was absolutely FLOORED. I believe My speaker search is over. It has soooo much life to its tone. I do play country music, so I was in the market for a speaker that shines on clean tones. I use a Keeley comp, actualy I live on My keeley...hard for me to turn it off at gigs, but after the JBL was installed I can plug straight into My amp, and I love it.

I was telling a good friend of mine about this JBL and how much I was lovin it.
I noticed when the JBL brakes up it doesnt sound that great. it gets a weird zingy sound. Before I could mention that it sounds zingy , He comented on the same thing. Then He said there is a alnico Altec that might even be better than the JBL, because it doesnt do that zingy thing.

He cant recall the model, So I was wondering if anyone here knows which Altec He might be referring to ?

[Manic]

Update, once again, the ole sounds great at the house but didnt pan out at the gig sydrome strikes again. :eek:

[Jammin'John]

Well a Deluxe Reverb would have had an Oxford 12K5-6 or Jensen P12R, C12R, C12Q

Probably a weber 12a100,12f100,12a125,or 12f125 would be nearest the original sound.
A 12F150 is still the american sound but a lot fuller & fatter.
GREAT speaker. I have one in a 5E3.

Ive tried many in my Brown Deluxe and the 30w ceramic Silver Bell realy hangs with a band.
I liked it better than the Blue Dog 'cause it's got more bottom and there's no EQ,just tone,on my amp.
http://taweber.powweb.com/weber/silver12f.htm
The 1230-55 is a very cool speaker also.
http://taweber.powweb.com/weber/1230-55f.htm
Not as tight bottom as the Silver though.

JJ

[GlennW]

He cant recall the model, So I was wondering if anyone here knows which Altec He might be referring to ?

Probably 417. They're heavy. (I know it's been a while...I was searching stuff.)