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30vs120 layout step in a row coil winding video experiment(standart winding style)

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  • 30vs120 layout step in a row coil winding video experiment(standart winding style)



    Just some experiments about the impact of wire layout step with accurate measurements that can be useful for community.
    Standard winding style was used in this experiment.(we dont really use it in our practice)
    AFC Measurements were held with active probe.
    Attached Files
    YouTube channel
    Contact us:
    sthandling@gmail.com

  • #2
    Ok, I am am unclear on what the variables 30 and 120 refer to? Is this turns per layer? If so, what was the bobbin height and AWG of wire? What was the theoretical correct turns/layer? Without this information I am not sure what I am to make of this. thanks for the data....
    making 63 and 66 T-bird pickups at ThunderBucker Ranch

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    • #3
      I think it was turn per layer & 43 gauge wire
      do the test yourself & even though the resonant peak will READ higher for a lower tpl ,your ears might not agree
      "UP here in the Canada we shoot things we don't understand"

      Comment


      • #4
        Interesting. First time i see some real measuremets and some "science" behind a lot of claims and opinions. Whether it is possible to apply that 101 on pickupmaking in real life is another thing and open for debate but cudos to MrCandy for doing the videos and sharing.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by copperheadroads View Post
          even though the resonant peak will READ higher for a lower tpl ,your ears might not agree
          If you will take pickup with 10 kHz RP and 10.5 kHz RP then you might not hear the difference, but if you will take pickup with 7 kHz and 7.5 kHz the difference in sound will be significant.

          By the way another fact: people try to make PAF clone with hand winding style. With all things being equal they say it sound not like original. And that all is because when they use hand winding style the wire scatter is accidental that looks very similar to 30 ls winding from experiment above. When they HW they have less mid range frequency and they say that HW PAF sound softer.

          In fact RP in that case is higher that makes sound a bit darker then original. But still you can make identical or even better PAF(more brighter sound) if you have enough experience and knowledge that you can get from this videos if you look closely here.

          With respect
          MrCandy
          Last edited by David Schwab; 07-24-2011, 05:10 PM. Reason: fixed formatting to make it easier to read
          YouTube channel
          Contact us:
          sthandling@gmail.com

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Peter Naglitsch View Post
            Interesting. First time i see some real measuremets and some "science" behind a lot of claims and opinions. Whether it is possible to apply that 101 on pickupmaking in real life is another thing and open for debate but cudos to MrCandy for doing the videos and sharing.
            Thanks. "PE wire vs Pole wire" coming soon, because it will be useful dispel the subjective opinions.
            YouTube channel
            Contact us:
            sthandling@gmail.com

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MrCandy View Post
              Thanks. "PE wire vs Pole wire" coming soon, because it will be useful dispel the subjective opinions.
              I'm assuming you mean "poly" wire?
              It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


              http://coneyislandguitars.com
              www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by MrCandy View Post
                By the way another fact: people try to make PAF clone with hand winding style. With all things being equal they say it sound not like original. And that all is because when they use hand winding style the wire scatter is accidental that looks very similar to 30 ls winding from experiment above. When they HW they have less mid range frequency and they say that HW PAF sound softer.
                I hand wind, but I have stopped intentionally scattering my windings, and try to wind as neatly as possible. I like the tone a lot better than scattered winding.
                It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein


                http://coneyislandguitars.com
                www.soundcloud.com/davidravenmoon

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MrCandy View Post
                  Thanks. "PE wire vs Pole wire" coming soon, because it will be useful dispel the subjective opinions.
                  PE is $50/lb now! Man, it almost doubled in price since last I bought some. I should have bought stock instead of wire

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by StarryNight View Post
                    PE is $50/lb now! Man, it almost doubled in price since last I bought some. I should have bought stock instead of wire
                    That's why I only use my stock for high paying rewinds, on vintage guitars.
                    B_T
                    "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                    Terry

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by StarryNight View Post
                      PE is $50/lb now! Man, it almost doubled in price since last I bought some. I should have bought stock instead of wire
                      What!!!!! no way , Is was $32 last fall
                      I will know tomorrow ,i just ordered another spool this morning
                      "UP here in the Canada we shoot things we don't understand"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        HEY!!

                        Am I the only one here who watched the whole video?

                        Y'know, the one where the two coils had close Rdc and inductances,
                        but the 120 winds/inch one had a resonant peak (RP) a whole 2kHz lower than the 30 wpi one?

                        Our man just quantified what everyone's been talking about for years:
                        wide scatter wind means extended high frequency response.

                        30 120 wpi winds per inch
                        Rdc 6654 6675 ohms DC resistance
                        L 2.340 2.351 Henries inductance
                        f 19430 17860 Hertz resonant frequency
                        C 29 34 picoFarads distributed capacitance

                        The lower resonant peak is most likely from greater
                        distributed capacitance since the other electrical specs are so close.

                        Capacitance was calculated from the usual first order approx
                        for LC parallel reactance: 2*PI*f = sqrt(LC) , and solved for C.
                        C = ((2*PI*f)^-2)/L

                        That's the easy stuff. Maybe the EE types can add a few spices to the stew.
                        "Det var helt Texas" is written Nowegian meaning "that's totally Texas." When spoken, it means "that's crazy."

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by David Schwab View Post
                          I'm assuming you mean "poly" wire?
                          We meant Polyurethane IEC-60317-20 by "Pole" sincerely apologies for the misunderstanding.

                          Originally posted by David Schwab View Post
                          I hand wind, but I have stopped intentionally scattering my windings, and try to wind as neatly as possible. I like the tone a lot better than scattered winding.
                          Totally agree. Intentional random scatter gives darker sound. Sometimes in amp it seems random scatter really could sound, but if you hear this guitar on the concert it dissolves in the sound of the band. All guitars where pickups have not enough mid-range will. Our chief Mr Andrew certainly found this when he worked as a sound engineer on live concerts.
                          YouTube channel
                          Contact us:
                          sthandling@gmail.com

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by salvarsan View Post
                            Our man just quantified what everyone's been talking about for years
                            Thanks for looking that closely Mr Salvarsan, we really appreciate it.
                            Yes, It was possible to just conduct experiments and not just talk for years.
                            By the way next thriller will be "PE vs Polyurethane": This theme is also discussed for decades and we really want to close it
                            with tests, measurements, specifications sound samples and other features like for example blind vote "Guess where..."
                            YouTube channel
                            Contact us:
                            sthandling@gmail.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by salvarsan View Post
                              Am I the only one here who watched the whole video?

                              Y'know, the one where the two coils had close Rdc and inductances,
                              but the 120 winds/inch one had a resonant peak (RP) a whole 2kHz lower than the 30 wpi one?

                              Our man just quantified what everyone's been talking about for years:
                              Of course I read it; no one who has thought about this or made any computations would have any trouble believing that you can change the unloaded resonant frequency by 8% by changing the winding parameters. (A factor of 12 in capacitance is another matter.)

                              However, it is incorrect to attribute any significance to this. Here's why:

                              Let's assume that the capacitance has changed by 5 pf as your table shows and that the cable has 800 pf. The resonant frequency depends on the square root of the capacitance. So the change in resonant frequency from the winding is about 0.3%. This is hardly significant. If you bought 10 "identical" cables, you would probably find more difference than that!

                              So winding for really low capacitance has no practical significance.
                              Last edited by Mike Sulzer; 07-25-2011, 01:03 PM. Reason: "in capacitance"

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