Suggestion on a speaker.

[Alan0354]

I just received the Eminence legend 1258 and tested it. I don't like it. It is way too bright, the bass is too tight like a tighten up bass drum!!! I was listening to a lot of demo to find this, I am absolutely at a loss now.

I am looking for American sound, it is American sound, but it's just so darn bright!!!! When I use in my Pro Reverb, I had to turn the treble down to 3 and bass way up!!! It just does not have the fullness I am looking for.

I am desperate.

[Chuck H]

I feel for you. Speaker selection is invariable a trial and error affair. If the 1258 is too tight and bright I have three suggestions...

1) Break it in. There can be a big difference between a broken in speaker and a new one. Choose a time when you and everyone else in your home will be away for a day and hook the speaker up to 15VAC and leave it that way for eight hours. I promise that it will loosen to allow greater cone excursion for more, but looser bass and be less bright. Enough of a change? I dunno. But you already have the speaker so what the hell. I have a V30 in my personal combo and breaking it in was a sentence! Waayy too bright and tight to begin with. Took a year. It sounds so good now I hope it never blows because I'd have to break in another one. Speakers that sound "right" out of the box simply won't sound right broken in. You're in this for the haul so don't be impatient.

2) try a Private Jack. I think this may be a "recommended for closed back cabinets" speaker, but you can ignore that. Good bottom that isn't especially tight. A little subdued in the low treble but good high treble. Smooth and clear. Peavey Classic 50's are known to be a little tight and bright. A pair of these in a friends amp balanced it out and made it great with no further mods. And I hated this speaker for my own amp. It's a matter of pairing the right speaker to the right amp.

3) Try a G12H Heritage. Guaranteed big, smooth bottom and clear, but never harsh top. The go to speaker for amps that are known to be tight and bright like DR's and some Marshalls. Almost a guarantee for good to great tone. A bit spendy.

I want to reiterate... If you find a speaker you like right out of the box it will be looser and duller sounding after it breaks in. Remember I said this so that a year from now I won't need to say I told you so

[Alan0354]

Any not as loud way to break in the speaker?

Do you put it in the cabinet to run the 15VAC? Is 15VAC a little cruel? That's is 15V/8=1.875A. so power=15 X 1.875 =28.125W!!!

I guess I can use a signal generator and run 60Hz through the amp to do that also!!! Should I hang the speaker alone in the air?


Ha ha, I might finally find a use of my Marshall JCM900!!!!

[überfuzz]

Any not as loud way to break in the speaker?

Why yes, there is a technique mainly referred to as ear plugs.

[Tone Meister]

The 1258 Legend should sound excellent in your Pro Reverb once it's broken in. It is a great replacement speaker for that Fender sound. ChuckH offered a wealth of info in his post, and according to the calculator linked below he was right on with suggesting 15VAC as a break-in voltage.

If you're going to use the variac method, then you can use this calculator to select a safe voltage: SPEAKER BREAK-IN Also, according to Jim at Scumback Speakers, it is very important that you apply break-in voltage for no more than about two hours at a time and let the speaker "rest" for a half hour or so before proceeding.

Personally, I'd just take the amp out and gig it and enjoy the process, but the variac method is valid and will get you there faster. You can also drive it with a test tone or even with program music, the goal being to exercise the cone and surround to loosen up the mechanicals of the speaker.

[Chuck H]

To add... I originally had a Cannabis Rex in my amp and it sounded perfect out of the box. Break in on that speaker only took about six months at which time it sounded a little uninteresting IMHO. Good for smokey blues, jazz or maybe single note runs in the upper registers. Any ability to do grindy rock or sparkly clean tones had vanished. I was bummed. So I went for a speaker that had the missing elements in spades. That was the V30. Once broken in it sounded very much like the C Rex did out of the box! An under rated speaker because it is so often judged by it's out of the box tone. But my gut says it wouldn't be right for Alan.

[potatofarmer]

If we're tossing in more recommendations: for more bass and less treble with an American sound, the Swamp Thang might be up your alley. Really full, huge sounding speaker. I have one in my Twin that's somewhat broken in and a brand new one arriving Thursday. Very efficient speaker though.

You can also break a speaker in by playing a CD or the radio through it. I suspect a more dynamic program would still get the suspension moving but be a little friendlier to the voice coil w.r.t. heat dissipation.

Is 60 Hz really safe to pump through a guitar speaker for extended periods of time? Pumping frequencies into a driver that are lower than its resonant frequency make me a little uncomfortable.

[Tone Meister]

... Is 60 Hz really safe to pump through a guitar speaker for extended periods of time? Pumping frequencies into a driver that are lower than its resonant frequency make me a little uncomfortable.

Well, the variac is gonna be 60 cycles, so yes. That is another reason to be careful of the applied voltage and to limit it to about two hours between breaks. I don't know how Weber does it, but I do know that Scumback and a few others use a variac to break in some very pricey speakers. We use the variac here to break in (and to expose problems with) reconed speakers for our touring rigs.

I agree with Chuck's assessment of the C-Rex for my own personal use. I still think the 1258 is a great for choice for Alan's tone goals in that amp.

[Chuck H]

60Hz is fine. The speakers resonant frequency and LF roll off frequency aren't danger zones. They're audible issues. You just need to flex the cone repeatedly to loosen up the surround and break down some stiffness in the cones paper composition to soften it. That's what has the affect on the tone. I agree that a couple of hours at a time should be a safer bet. And a music program rather than a straight 60Hz may make for a different effect. With more softening the cone and less loosening of the surround, and may be more like what you would actually get with a natural break in. It also offers the opportunity to stick the speaker into a temporary cabinet and just listen to music through it. Waaayyy less annoying than a steady 60Hz And could probably be managed at 30 watts. I've had to listen to guys throwing parties blasting music a lot louder than that all day long many times. Maybe three all day music programs with the speaker stuck in a closet space while doing misc house and yard chores on Saturdays?!? It offers the opportunity so say "Oh, hey, I love this song." rather than go insane from a constant 60Hz torture test.

[Tone Meister]

Excursion would be maximized if the speaker is out of the cabinet and placed cone up/magnet down, and in the interest of shortening the process, that's the way I'd do it using the variac or test tone method. But, the 60 Hz signal is definitely annoying, so playing some very loud Led Zeppelin or Jeff Beck program music with the speaker in its cabinet would be much preferred if you don't have an area to isolate it. It certainly a much easier decision when you only have a speaker or two that needs a workout.

[potatofarmer]

Don't forget the spider too! I imagine the spider is where the majority of the stiffness comes from; surrounds primarily keep the cone and voice coil centered and attached to the frame.

With the 60Hz thing, I was thinking more about maximum allowable excursion, as guitar speakers are specifically designed not to throw the cone as far as bass speakers, hi-fi, PA, etc speakers. At 1/3 power you're not forcing the voice coil thermally, particularly if you take breaks - maybe one of those wall outlet timers would be useful. Then you could even do 15 minutes on, 15 off.

I just wonder if that lower-powered excursion at 60 Hz instead of 100 or 1k could over-soften the speaker. Instead of putting the equivalent of a year on it, you could be putting two or five... or possibly over-aging the speaker beyond what it could ever experience if you just fed it frequencies in the guitar range.

Thousands and thousands of speakers have been pre-broken in this way and I haven't seen anyone complaining about pre-broken in speakers being more likely to toss voice coils out of the gaps, so probably not. Going the other way, if we cut the frequency down to 10 Hz or 1 could we be done in an afternoon?

[Alan0354]

The 1258 Legend should sound excellent in your Pro Reverb once it's broken in. It is a great replacement speaker for that Fender sound. ChuckH offered a wealth of info in his post, and according to the calculator linked below he was right on with suggesting 15VAC as a break-in voltage.

If you're going to use the variac method, then you can use this calculator to select a safe voltage: SPEAKER BREAK-IN Also, according to Jim at Scumback Speakers, it is very important that you apply break-in voltage for no more than about two hours at a time and let the speaker "rest" for a half hour or so before proceeding.

Personally, I'd just take the amp out and gig it and enjoy the process, but the variac method is valid and will get you there faster. You can also drive it with a test tone or even with program music, the goal being to exercise the cone and surround to loosen up the mechanicals of the speaker.

I am thinking of using the signal generator driving the Marshall JCM900 into the speaker. I have a variac, but I don't have a transformer at that voltage and I am not going to buy one just for this only. The Marshall sounds too crappy for playing, so at least I can put it to use for once!!! May be, I should drive it with square wave to add some harmonics!!!

[Alan0354]

60Hz is fine. The speakers resonant frequency and LF roll off frequency aren't danger zones. They're audible issues. You just need to flex the cone repeatedly to loosen up the surround and break down some stiffness in the cones paper composition to soften it. That's what has the affect on the tone. I agree that a couple of hours at a time should be a safer bet. And a music program rather than a straight 60Hz may make for a different effect. With more softening the cone and less loosening of the surround, and may be more like what you would actually get with a natural break in. It also offers the opportunity to stick the speaker into a temporary cabinet and just listen to music through it. Waaayyy less annoying than a steady 60Hz And could probably be managed at 30 watts. I've had to listen to guys throwing parties blasting music a lot louder than that all day long many times. Maybe three all day music programs with the speaker stuck in a closet space while doing misc house and yard chores on Saturdays?!? It offers the opportunity so say "Oh, hey, I love this song." rather than go insane from a constant 60Hz torture test.

I like your original advice of setting it up and leave!!!!

Question is can I just run the speaker without cabinet, hang it in mid air and run 60Hz wave? Without cabinet, it is not close to as loud at low frequency. I don't want to shake the stuffs off the shelves and tables in the house.

I have a lot of old 6L6, I just use old of the old pair in the Marshall for driving. If the Marshall blow, that gives me an excuse to rip the guts out and build a Plexi off it.

[Alan0354]

Don't forget the spider too! I imagine the spider is where the majority of the stiffness comes from; surrounds primarily keep the cone and voice coil centered and attached to the frame.

With the 60Hz thing, I was thinking more about maximum allowable excursion, as guitar speakers are specifically designed not to throw the cone as far as bass speakers, hi-fi, PA, etc speakers. At 1/3 power you're not forcing the voice coil thermally, particularly if you take breaks - maybe one of those wall outlet timers would be useful. Then you could even do 15 minutes on, 15 off.

I just wonder if that lower-powered excursion at 60 Hz instead of 100 or 1k could over-soften the speaker. Instead of putting the equivalent of a year on it, you could be putting two or five... or possibly over-aging the speaker beyond what it could ever experience if you just fed it frequencies in the guitar range.

Thousands and thousands of speakers have been pre-broken in this way and I haven't seen anyone complaining about pre-broken in speakers being more likely to toss voice coils out of the gaps, so probably not. Going the other way, if we cut the frequency down to 10 Hz or 1 could we be done in an afternoon?

Judging from the sound, softer is better!!! 60Hz it is!!! It should be quieter without the speaker in the cabinet at low frequency too.

[Tone Meister]

Put the speaker face up and drive it at a reasonable volume.