Is it just highe end? (cable differnces)

[daz]

Just wondering whether there are audible differences between cables BESIDES the obvious variation in high end depending on capacitance per foot. Do you think there are other differences, for example, clarity? Or do you think clarity is just due to extra high end. What about harmonics? In other words, it the capacitance the only audible difference? I have belden 8410 with is pretty low capacitance, and i don't feel a need to lose top end. So is there any benefit to going to say mogami 2524 ? They talk about purity in the copper and clarity etc etc. I was going to switch over because it's supposed to be tangle free which is something the belden is horrible at. But in going for that i'm wondering if there would be a sonic side benefit. Go ahead....educate me.

[Mark Hammer]

To read any of the cable reviews that regularly show up in popular mags, one would naturally come to the conclusion that it IS more than "just high end". At the same time, it's not like the bandwidth and spectral content of guitars is that broad. If a cable loses definition of a symphony orchestra, that's one thing. But variations in definition of an SG, or a bass? I dunno. That seems like a stretch to me.

Of course, "definition" is also a function of grouping harmonics and fundamentals together into identifiable sources. So I can sort of see how some forms of high-end loss can make some mid and lower harmonics seem difficult to place; a bit like not immediately recognizing a face because a few details were not clear due to a smudge on your glasses. Plus, cable has more parameters than simply linear resistance and capacitance. I expect other folks to jump in here with more about those additional parameters.

[km6xz]

There are a lot of factors that vary between designs and whether it makes any observable difference depends on the match between the source and load, what the source impedance is and one of the most audible, how microphonic it is. High microphonic cable in a high Z system produces very audible noise from moving the cable and from vibration. Guitar cable has a hard job, be very flexible and durable yet low enough capacitance to not act as a low pass filter with the very high source and load Z of passive pickups and tone circuit and the high z of the grid of the first amp tube. That is the most important advantage with active pickups, the source Z lowers so cable capacitance does not roll off the high frequencies. The abrasion resistance of the jacket is pretty important also. Cheap vinyl covering does not resist rough handling and bending in cold temperatures the silicone cable can.
Is high end cable worth it? Not for differences in sound but it might be worth considering for the road kit because it "might" be more durable.. When I say "high end" I am referring to good quality of cable, not snake oil "interconnects", which are very expensive and total flim-flam hucksterism. No piece of wire is worth $1000 a meter as a number of them cost an certainly does not pass critical testing for making a difference.
Unless using lower Z source you can minimize impact on sound(microphonics, low pass filter effect) by just using the shortest piece you can get by with. If the guitar has active pickups or goes through effects that are not true bypass, the impact of higher capacitance is reduced a lot. Wiring for balanced line and low source z pretty much eliminates a lot of the problems with really high z has with noise, rolloff and even microphonics.

[tedmich]

I think for guitarists its just ruggedness/dependability and capacitance that are important, in that order. That said many guys go on and on about "darkness" and "clarity", higher capacitance does cut highs but I've always just wanted as much signal as possible to go through my ~15ft cable to my amp. If you've got 48 ft of cable and +12 pedals you may want to look much more closely at your cable though...

[Justin Thomas]

All I really care about is that it's non-microphonic, doesn't crackle if flexed/stepped on, has decent sized conductors, quality plugs(usually installed by me), and that it works every time. The only time I care about a guitar cable is when it doesn't sound like anything - because it's broken. And I tend to think that a 20' cable (and that's considered long...) is a lot better conduction-wise, capacitance-wise, etc. than the 80' of microscopic traces in the average four pedals or so that most of us play through... The cable is the LEAST of my worries. We don't worry about all those skinny "wires" in FX and the purity of the metals in all the imported parts we use... This is like the 24K gold outlet when the mains lines are aluminum or whateer crappy metal.

That said, I <DO> have a go-to guitar cable, given to me by a friend. It used to be 20'. Now it's about 16'. I haven't noticed any difference.

Justin

[Chuck H]

I would be VERY surprised if there is any measureable difference between guitar cables other than capacitance. I don't think there's any possibility of inductance such that it could affect the LF and the resistance of different gauge conductors should be insignificant.

I've read about cables that use some sort of carbon/graphite conductor or some such and have virtually no capacitance. That actually never sounded like a good idea to me. I do use a standard cable that measures low in capacitance compared to average. It's from a Guitar Center Christmas promotion twenty eight years ago and I've been using that cable almost exclusively since I chose it from my stash by ear test a couple of years later. I don't remember the actual readings now but I remember it was notably lower than all my others. I suppose I should measure it again and write it down in case I ever need to replace it.

[Leo_Gnardo]

Besides hi's lost to capacitance and triboelectric noise (that annoying crackle when bending or stepping on crap cable) there's not much besides convenience. I was a big fan of Belden 8410 for a long time, moved thru Belden "Brilliance" and some other types of "quad" cable with 4 interior conductors. Now I've been using Conquest USA-1 for a long time. Reasonably priced, good flexibility, coils up nicely, easy to strip, sounds just fine, lots of colors if you like that.

Switchcraft connectors of course.

Some of my customers have brought me Mogami to make cables for them. It works well but seems kind of lightweight, might not be tough enough for typical stage use.

[daz]

Some of my customers have brought me Mogami to make cables for them. It works well but seems kind of lightweight, might not be tough enough for typical stage use.

yeah, i've noticed that with both canare and mogami cable. It's very light and probably not good for tangles even tho i saw reviews on the mogami stating the opposite. Not sure about durability tho. I'll probably stick with 8410 even tho it may be the worse offender as tanles go.

[tedmich]

A lot of "less than pro" players really like lightweight cables like some Mogami and definitely George L tiny (0.155" dia) stuff which, being tiny, probably provides for a higher profit margin too. The no-solder ends make me nervous though...

from George L's WEB site: ""It sounds like someone took a blanket of (sic) my amp!"

[patlaw]

...George L tiny (0.155" dia) stuff

Is there a similar size cable that costs less? His stuff is EXPENSIVE! I would love to find some one-conductor shielded cable like the stuff that Switchcraft uses/used for pre-made RCA cables, but I have not been able to find it. The ideal diameter is the size of Radio Shack (ugh) RCA to RCA cables.

[daz]

I tried a test today. 3 different cables in different lengths that read 380pf, 300pf, and 180pf for the very short one, just long enough to be able to stand up w/o leaning down so i could still stand in the same place so amp placement wasn't a variable. I learned one thing....I much prefer low capacitance. I thought it would be too bright, but i found it did not seem brighter or thinner sounding, just clearer. Where it really shined was in chords where articulation is important. The notes were more distinguishable in a chord which has always been something i strive for.

So the bummer is the 180pf cable sounded great but obviously i need a much longer one, 10ft. I could probably live with less, but the question is this...does anyone make super low cap cable that beats even the mogami or belden 8410 by a pretty wide margin? I would think it would just mean a larger diameter hot lead jacket or a second jacket over that like i've seen before. I'm gonna need about 20pf/ft to gete where i want. Is that posible?

[g1]

Are active pickups or electronics an option?
That would get around the cable issue.

[daz]

Are active pickups or electronics an option?
That would get around the cable issue.

Never.

[J M Fahey]

The only audible/meaninful variation is capacitance , given pickups are high impedance sources and to boot inductive (hint: higher impedance as you rise frequency, pus resonance when combined to capacitive load).

Anything else is irrelevant; very much doubt you can hear any difference between 1 ohm and 10 ohms cable resistance when the pickup driving it has, say, 1500 ohms DCR (or more) , and the load impedance is between 100k and 1 M .

[km6xz]

Yes, if you are noticing that much difference, that what active pickups are for, to drive cables better. There are two resonate circuits involved in a passive guitar electronics, the inductance of the pickup and RC circuit it connects to forms a resonate peak in the mid treble region so upper harmonics are accentuated. There is another peak post tone control where the cable capacitance and the level pot form another filter even higher in frequency but less pronounced. If you are hearing a big difference I would look more at the set up of the guitar passive electronics, it might be peaking at too low a frequency. Remember that each cable and guitar combo will have that second peak frequency at a different point. It will be a pretty subtle difference so if you are hearing a lot of difference, something is wrong elsewhere.
What is the actual load Z of the amp on that cable? Is it direct to the g1 of V1?
If you do not to change anything else and only use the cable with the current amp and guitar, try test instrument cable. Like >100Mhz scope lead cable, the wire is smaller than a human hair so it is not expected to be a stage tool, but nothing else in your system will be suited to reproducing the difference you say you are experiencing with a 120 pfd.
Of course you can use a capacitive/resistive divider to attenuate the signal and isolate the shunt capacitance of the input by the same scaling factor. A 10:1 RC <>RC divider with identical time constants has a frequency independent attenuation. You loose some signal but you lose capacitance by the same factor, so your 300pf cable appears to be 30pf with a proper 10:1 divider. But it is easier to find the current problem and fix that than build in attenuation.