circuitboard designs

[Shane]

Hi Folks
has anyone come across a pcb or other circuit board design program that will do simple pcb AND eyelet boards that is easy to use, and will export stuff like gerber files!

Ive been using express pcb which is excellent but it wont do the gerber thing. I'm based in the UK and cant keep ordering stuff from them, besides as nice as their boards are they are nowhere near thick enough for me ,and dont come in the right colour!
I know they will supply gerber files but you have to get some boards first and I aint made of money!

Most of the available packages are WAY too complex and I wouldn't use anywhere near their full functions, dont need schematic capture etc......

What I need is an easy to use package that will do both simple user definableboard area, tracks and pads, an ident layer, and allow some cad/cam file export.
(dont want much do I?)

its a pity theres not a package out there aimed at tube amp designers!
Anyone got any suggestions?

Cheers
Shane

[Ray Ivers]

Shane,

I believe ExpressPCB will convert your .pcb files to gerber & drill for (IIRC) $60 USD, but maybe that's only if boards are purchased from them, as you said. You'll just have to figure out how many hours you have invested in your current design (figured mine out last week - almost 700 hours!) and if that's worth it for you. Mine seem thick enough - the main PCB (13" x 10") is a little more flexible than I'd like when removed from the chassis, but it has two standoffs and is pretty solid once installed. My input-preamp board is rock-solid - it's only 3" x 5" - and the tube PCB (3" x 6") is pretty firm despite being Swiss-cheesed with ventilation holes (large-diameter pads) - it has 5 standoffs, though.

John Kelley Brown - who used to post at the old Ampage a lot, and is a PCB designer by profession - suggested a program called PADS PowerPCB to me, which I believe does everything you asked about; I do not think it's cheap, but I bet it's really good if he recommended it.

I've been pretty happy with ExpressPCB so far - two orders, total of 20 PCB's - but I think if I had it to do over again I might have gone with a mainstream PCB-design program and then had my choice of fab houses, PCB materials, board/trace thicknesses, etc. Then again, that program would probably have cost as much as (or more than) all my PCB purchases to date.

Ray

[Shane]

thanks Ray!

Hi Ray
I had some small boards done by Express and was quite impressed.
Its the shipping costs etc that make it awkward for me, though to be fair it would have cost me nearly as much to have them done locally!

Still I'd like thicker boards I'm notoriously clumsy

I'll check out that other package thanks for the tip. But I bet I end up sticking with Express cause I find it so easy ( see I'm lazy too!!!)
Cheers
Shane

[Rob S]

Hi,
I often thought of giving these a go (up to 3.2mm boards):

http://tinyurl.com/p2yzf

but for the boards I need I just make them myself with the laser printer/photo paper method.

For the design I found an ancient version of express pcb on the net somewhere which works well.

Rob.

[Ray Ivers]

Rob,

Thanks for the link - a China connection! Good options, too. The feedback is kind of interesting - like somebody's ? key got stuck...

Ray

[Rob S]

For the design I found an ancient version of express pcb on the net somewhere which works well.

That's me writing rubbish again.

It should read an ancient version of Easy-PC by number one systems. They're up to version 10 now which sings, dances and plays guitar - there's a demo available at:

http://www.numberone.com/index.asp

Rob.

[Just Bob]

Designing boards is a career in itself. Most good packages are VERY expensive. I've looked at every (relatively) low-cost package out there. The free ones often lock you into having your boards made by one vendor. No Gerber or plotter output if you want to make your own boards.

Out of the pack, I have two recommendations. Eagle, which has a useable free version, and Easy-PC (which has a demo but the demo is not something you can use). Eagle comes from Germany. I find it frustrating and impossible to use. But, it's free. I bought Easy-PC. The low pin-count versions are under $500, but not by much. Has some quirks, but certainly the best "low-cost" package out there. It will basically do anything you could need. Has schematic and layout. Integrated SPICE is an extra-cost add-on. Does SMD, multi-layer, ground plane, whatever.

For any of the CAD packages, you'll have to spend a good bit of time creating your own libraries for tubes. Not hard, but time consuming. If you need Gerber output and want something that's productive, I'd recommend Easy-PC. I've been doing layout since the tape-and-dot era and used most major packages. Easy-PC has the most features for the price and works fairly well. Some others are simply horrible.

[Shane]

Easy-pc is one of the options I've considered. It doesn't seem tooooo.. hard to learn, but its still way more complex than I need.

Your right about a lot of the packages even some of the less complex ones, they are just not very user friendly.

One I have tried and quite like for simple stuff, is called PCB Wizard.
Its used in schools a lot, but they have a professional version which does gerbers etc and its not expensive.
Its easy to use too.

Cheers
Shane

[Just Bob]

Everything seems to have more features than you need, until you need to do something and it won't do it. The least expensive way is either some of the freeware or a CAD program like Autosketch (which doesn't do Gerber). But, if you're advanced enough that you need Gerber output, you'll probably grow into one of the more advanced packages pretty quickly. You need schematic entry. Make one change to the circuit and you'll see why. It also documents the design. I have a big box of "what the heck is this" boards. Having online schematics is a huge advantage.

A critical feature is the libraries. You have to be able to generate your own parts easily. There are a few things that are standard but also an amazing number of odd parts. I usually need to create 5 or 10 parts for every design that are not in the libraries. I tried PCB Wizard. Don't remember why, but there was a reason why I didn't get it. Easy-PC also has very flexible output. Gerber and image plots. Normal, reversed, negative, with filled pads or not, drill tapes. Design rule checking. Every circuit board house has different rules. Easy to miss a little detail that will throw your design out of their system. If you sell products, its critical that boards look good and are documented.

The board houses with online or free software lock you into high prices. I pay about 50 cents per square inch plus setup for prototype double-sided glass PTH boards. You need your own CAD to take advantage of that. Break even in two designs. Anyway, if you need low cost, try Eagle first. Its free. But, just like whacking yourself with a hammer, it feels so good when you stop. I paid 2 or 3 times what I wanted to pay but it was a worthwhile investment. I can go from sketch to finished board in a day if I etch my own, or into a double-sided board in a week for $50 if I send it out.

Have fun. Took me weeks of shopping to decide on Easy-PC. Their support stinks and it has some annoying bits, but the product works better than any other in that price range. Been using it for 2 years and a couple dozen designs with no major problems.

[Shane]

Thanks for the advice Bob I really appreciate it.
That goes for all the other posters too!

I've downloaded easy-pc's demo and I'll give it another go
got some others to look at too.
Cadstar, pads powerpcb etc..

cheers
Shane

[gtrboy]

dxf?

if a dxf file would help i can draw that for you $$$

[Steve Conner]

I use Eagle for hobby projects since I had to learn it for my day job anyway. I send Gerber files by e-mail to a Chinese PCB house like Gold Phoenix. You usually end up with about 8-16 copies of your board (depending on the size of it) for about US$100. I'm based in the UK too, but they seem happy shipping there.

Some people say Eagle sucks, but I quite like it. The biggest board I've done is a 4 layer beastie with a 40MHz DSP on it, for an industrial gas leak detector.

[Just Bob]

I find Eagle non-intuitive and hard to read. Lots of tiny icons. Probably OK if you don't do many boards. But, I do a couple a month and specialize in difficult layouts. Odd shapes, ground plane, fine pitch. Eagle would make me more nuts than I already am. I've used a good dozen packages over the years. You pick the best you can afford and deal with it. The real high-end programs are way over $10K and some of those are still very hard to use. There are some new open-source packages available that run under Unix. Complete suite from schematic through simulation and layout. Free. But I don't know Unix and have never tried them.