What is Marketing Bulls**t?

[kevinT]

You know, I thought about whether or not I should start this thread because it might blow up and turn into something ugly. But I think this term/concept needs to be explained and flushed out because I think there are some folks that just don't know what the purpose of marketing and advertising is. I understand some folks' negative view of marketing because of the old days of peddling snake oil etc....

I have degrees in Marketing and Advertising so this topic kinda strikes a nerve when folks dis the process of advertising and marketing and don't understand how folks use marketing to communicate information about their wares. Yet, they don't realize that they're doing it themselves.

Yes, there are folks that make false far flung claims and even lie about their products in order to entice folks to buy their products. These folks are unscrupulous and these folks give marketing a bad name.

But then there are honest folks that use marketing as a creative and flashy way to communicate information about their products...and all of it is legitimate and truthful.

Clint, you seem like a cool dude and I'm not giving you any grief, but I was a little perplexed about what you were calling marketing bullshit in a thread in the other forum. "calibrated sets, Rosie Wrap, Aged magnets, etc..specifically.


There are two concepts that you mentioned.

1. A name given to a proprietary method/technique.

2. Nomenclature that has evolved to reflect; a.) the relationship of output/dcr between two pickups and b.) the effects of age/time and other conditions on magnets.

The fact is, sometimes there is no other way to communicate technical terms to a layperson other than to use plain language and terms that they can understand. Aged magnets, for example, is just another name for a degaussed magnet which is done by a winder to reflect the loss of gauss over time to the magnet...hence "aged". What is wrong with using this term? I am sure that most winders would agree that this is a legitimate term. What else would you call it if it is a part of your design that affects the tone and is something that you want to highlight? Degaussed magnet? That is boring and it really doesn't say anything. To me, using the term "aged magnet", your conveying what it is and why it was done.

Furthermore, if someone develops a method and it is different than anything else on the market and they can prove it's different, what is wrong with a winder giving it their own name or term and communicating the unique aspects of their discovery to the marketplace? Another example, if Don Mare has discovered a technique that is different and affects the tone of his pickup in a certain way and he gives this technique a name...What is wrong with this?

It seems that with all the winders popping up every few days,there is no other way to make yourself stand out from the crowd of winders other than to find and use a USP (unique selling proposition) which is a marketing term. For example, Jon Grundy markets his pickups and positions them in the minds prospective customers as being unique because he winds them on the Leesona machine, the way PAFs were wound in the past. What is wrong with this? It is unique because there is only him and Seymour that use this machine for winding. To me this is not marketing bullshit-- these are the hard facts. John is offering customers another option than buying a Duncan pickup (Antiquity) that was wound on this type of machine.

Dave S. uses his metallurgy discoveries and other research to market his pickups.

Wade (Nightwinder) uses the characteristics of his pickups and uses creative ways to communicate these features.

Spence focuses on his tone and appearance and highlights the PAF replicas that he does.

I describe my pickups in creative ways based on my target market for the pickup and the pickup's characteristics.

Unfortunately, some folks are better at marketing than others. Some hire a firm to do their marketing. Some have their own marketing departments.

Maybe you've become lackadaisical about your winding and may not look at pickup winding as exciting anymore because you've been doing it for a long time. Maybe you haven't discovered anything new lately.

I'm always trying new things. I am really excited about the discoveries I've made with regard to tension and pitch using different experiments with my equipment. They may not seem like nothing to anyone, but they are a big deal for me....I'm coming up with new sounds from my techniques and equipment that only can come from my machine and my knowledge. These are the hard facts. Is this magic....I would say no, but they are real discoveries for me and they can be applied to my present and future designs.

Furthermore, one's knowledge is limited to the tools that they have to work with. This is not meant to be an insult...it is the truth. You can do a lot more with a CNC winder and track and measure the results when you try new things than if hand guiding the wire. I'm constantly winding different designs to come up with new stuff. ...when my tests turn out from what I predicted...it kick ass for me and the same goes for other winders I'm sure.

The bottom line is there is a purpose for marketing communication. If someone wants to call a 'degaussed magnet' a 'degaussed magnet' in their marketing literature that is their prerogative. If I want to call it an 'aged magnet' to reflect the effects of age on a magnet....what is the difference? ...it's a degaussed magnet.

[David Schwab]

I agree that having a trade name for a process is normal and good. So is using nomenclature, tone charts, etc., to describe your product.

I think bad marketing is making claims that are dubious at best. I know I've seen this kind of stuff, so I decided to look around and find a few examples. Names have been hidden to protect the... well just to be fair.

Here's one:

Unlike the "Big Name" version of this pickup- the ********** has a real vintage FIBER BOBBIN- that means that, unlike plastic, they can really heat up the wax and vacuum impregnate the windings- the result? KILLER tone, great output, no noise, and NO MICROPHONICS!

I'd call that "marketing BS". "Vintage fiber bobbin" Did they dig up some old forbon? And then of course pickup makers wax pot plastic bobbins all the time. And I don't think anyone here would equate more wax penetration, or hotter wax, with "KILLER tone". Probably the opposite.

They should have said they use fiber bobbins because they look good, or are traditional.

Here's another. From a guitar maker that sells some guitars with a preamp that includes a distortion feature. Mostly their low end guitars. I own one of these guitars, and I have looked at the preamp. It's an op amp with a switchable mid cut filter, and a switchable distortion feature made from a typical 4 diode clipping stage. It's extremely buzzy and sounds like an MXR Distortion + with two more diodes! Not subtle at all, although if you turn down the guitar's volume, if gets a bit cleaner, and also you lose some high end (must have a fairly low input z) so it get mellower sounding at the expense of crispness. Still it's hardly usable, but kind of fun. Works OK in front of an overdriven amp, but it's still not anything like a Tube Screamer. Distortion ++.

But they write this:

Built-in pre-amp designed with our proprietary V-Stack analog modeling technology for organic, responsive, warm tone. No matter what you play through, it has awesome vintage tube amp tone.

Ummm, no. Proprietary? It's not modeling technology, it's a fuzz box! It doesn't sound like a tube amp, and at best with the tone control down you can get a decent Big Muff Robert Fripp lead tone.

So to me, that's "Marketing BS", or more precisely, "BS Marketing".

There sure isn't anything wrong with marketing your product and making it sound like the best thing since sliced bread. But these examples would be what's known as "puffery".

"Aged" magnets? Magnets don't really age, so that's also a false claim that invokes the feeling of "vintage" pickups. "Vintage" is another overused phrase lately. And the word "awesome" is "dude-speak" and should never, ever, be used by anyone ever again! It's quota has been reach and surpassed. It's also mostly used in the wrong context, such as in the above quotation. But that is the informal meaning. As I said, "dude-speak". Ack!

I have no idea what Clint was referring too, and while I did read the thread at the other forum (and even participated at the end), I did not watch his video. I just didn't have the time.

But that's my 2 cents, and I think you brought up valid points.

Dave S. uses his metallugey discoveries and other research to market his pickups.

Actually I don't. I talk about it here, but all I say at my web site is:

Solid, deep lows. Defined musical mids.
Crisp, smooth highs.
Clean and powerful tone, passive, also works great with any preamp.
...

The pickup feature blade polepieces for any string spacing up to 2.95" (74.93mm). All pickups are cast in epoxy resin for durability and to prevent feedback.

I think I purposely avoided all that stuff. I don't give the DC resistance readings, and I hardly ever tell anyone what's in the pickups, or how they are made. Maybe I should add some of that stuff, but I think it's either misleading, or to many people, nonsense.

I figure if they like the sound clips I posted, that should be the selling point.

Or was that Possum you were referring to?

[salvarsan]

"Marketing bullshit", despite being erroneously conflated with "advertising copy",
is seen as a product description that is factually lacking and which contains,
instead, subjective and marginally synesthetic descriptors calculated to
produce an emotional response culminating in a sale.

By that definition, "marketing Bullshit" is rightfully seen as disingenuous,
manipulative, and bordering on fraud.

To be sure, a pickup possessing rich but tight bass, a creamy smooth
midrange and liquid bloom in the upper registers, with a supple but crisp
and well-controlled high end and an overall cleanness of tone that locks in
the vintage PAF timbre while demonstrating the technical improvements of
the last fifty years may well be a desirable thing.

But I'd rather listen to it and form my own opinions.

-drh

[Possum]

...

I had some email conversations with David at Tonequest. He pretty much said that among the small pickup makers, its rife with bullcrap. I left my career of 30+ years as an art director/designer to make pickups full time. I got really tired of that world of marketing blah blah etc. total plastic universe. Among my worst accomplishments was designing ads to recruit nuclear missile designers, how low can one go.... Most of the rest of my career was in the music industry with EMG and Shrapnel Records at least it was music stuff so that felt pretty good, except the part where I was making them rich by making them look good. Now I only make what I do look good :-)

Anyway, I really dislike overselling one's product or promoting myths to make yourself look good. Unfortunately there IS way too much of that in this field and the worst of it is among those who sell consistently on Ebay, there is some amazing garbage being put out there by guys who've been making pickups for a year if that. I sell on Ebay now and then and find that my text has been ripped off by others who sell there, because they see that mine sell and think they'll throw in some of my technical descriptions into their ad copy to sell pickups. Usually they butcher it though and it reads like nonsense.

If you sell pickups based on stuff thats not real, eventually it will bite you in the ass. Someone will buy your pickups because you made them sound like they are something from another planet. Six months later they're thinking why the hell did I buy this junk? Those guys won't come back and buy from you again, you've created a subconscious negative in their minds and you won't get their business again. Any claims I make are based in fact, my work with alloys research is real and proveable 100%. I don't oversell my work, and maybe thats why I don't sell as much as some others, but I would rather get an honest sale than an impulse buy based on "air" reasoning and fancy descriptions that don't pan out in the real world. This is also why I demo my pickups in a stupid simple way, my simple playing, a guitar and a small tube amp, no effects. That way no one could ever come back and say my pickups don't sound like my sound clips and no one ever has. There are some others who philosophy seems to be get the money and run and hope you never see 'em again. If you are in this as a business, eventually the word gets around and you won't have a business anymore. Thats my take on all this :-)

[Plucky]

Sorry guys, but I didn't have the patience to read everything you wrote(it was a lot), but I can honestly say that I agree whole-hearted, having been a builder and a tech for over 20 years. I have seen a lot, but would never be so bold as to have said I've seen it all, although, I wish I had, 'cause then I wouldn't be phased when people want me to age their pickup covers so they can get that vintage tone. WTF...?

[martin manning]

"Marketing bullshit", despite being erroneously conflated with "advertising copy",
is seen as a product description that is factually lacking and which contains,
instead, subjective and marginally synesthetic descriptors calculated to
produce an emotional response culminating in a sale.

By that definition, "marketing Bullshit" is rightfully seen as disingenuous,
manipulative, and bordering on fraud.

To be sure, a pickup possessing rich but tight bass, a creamy smooth
midrange and liquid bloom in the upper registers, with a supple but crisp
and well-controlled high end and an overall cleanness of tone that locks in
the vintage PAF timbre while demonstrating the technical improvements of
the last fifty years may well be a desirable thing.

But I'd rather listen to it and form my own opinions.

-drh

This begs the definition of "bullshit," which most would agree is a claim that is intentionally misleading or deceptive. The text above is really smelly, but I'd say it is more like "flowery," in the extreme. I don't see anything there that is a false claim, just subjective opinion (expressed in a manner that borders on salacious). Arousing the interest of a potential customer, even if it is based in skepticism, makes it successful "advertising copy." None of it could be disproved by objective measurement, and therefore it is not fraudulent. "Marketing bullshit" should rightly have it's own definition that excludes fraud, if only to protect innocent marketeers. Nice job on that pile of marketing BS, BTW.

MPM

[Possum]

...

I would call it plain ol' B.S. I get customers who ask "what does your so and so pickup sound like, what will it sound like in MY guitar?" You can't really describe tone, that "flowery" paragraph doesn't really say anything, if someone falls for that line, good luck to 'em :-) I tell my customers I'm stupid and can't describe tone in words, listen to the sound clips, the pickups will sound different every different guitar, they will sound different with every different player, buy it , try it, if you don't like it tell me why and we'll fix it one time for free. I like the nuts and bolts approach, stupid simple :-) Can you imagine Leo Fender coming up with a flower paragraph as quoted?

I've learned from letting guitar players listen to clips of my prototypes that most of them have a hard time really LISTENING to the clips, they often can't relate. I found that if I play a badly rendered classic rock riff then suddenly they get excited (or not). The backside of this thread is how do you get across to your market what you have to sell? People who buy pickups without listening to sound clips amaze me, they buy based on name recognition which often is a huge mistake. I don't sell zip to metal heads because I can't play that stuff, almost zero jazz guys or jazz fusion guys, though I have a few bucker models that kill for that stuff. How do you reach your target market? I'm trying something different with the new VL set, getting someone else to demo them and give me feedback, professional players. I hold my own at a blues jam but astonish anyone with my playing,,,, not.

[kevinT]

"Marketing bullshit", despite being erroneously conflated with "advertising copy",
is seen as a product description that is factually lacking and which contains,
instead, subjective and marginally synesthetic descriptors calculated to
produce an emotional response culminating in a sale.

By that definition, "marketing Bullshit" is rightfully seen as disingenuous,
manipulative, and bordering on fraud.

To be sure, a pickup possessing rich but tight bass, a creamy smooth
midrange and liquid bloom in the upper registers, with a supple but crisp
and well-controlled high end and an overall cleanness of tone that locks in
the vintage PAF timbre while demonstrating the technical improvements of
the last fifty years may well be a desirable thing.

But I'd rather listen to it and form my own opinions.

-drh

So what you're saying is you would rather just see an image of a pickup (what it looks like) and have an MP3 file of what it sounds like? No words describing it?

Granted a sound file is worth a thousand words but if you don't have one, words are the next best thing. There is no other way to describe the general attributes of the tone of the pickup other than in words? Your example goes a bit overboard, but if reworked a bit, I think it could pass with regard to describing a PAF if that was the route you wanted to go. Some of your example looks very familiar .

Most all pickup makers use the format or variations of it that you describe above.

[kevinT]

hmmm...quite a bit of cynicism about marketing. Here is a definition that I pulled out. I think it reflects many folks' attitude toward advertising and their overall feeling about society in general.

"Accusations of "cynicism" may originate in the negative perceptions and hostile attitudes of individuals concerning others. People who obtain high values on the hostility scale, have low confidence in their fellow humans, and regard them as dishonest, antisocial, immoral and bad."

Advertising is noise/an annoyance when you're not looking to buy what is being advertised or if the item doesn't meet your immediate need. However, when one generally finds himself in need of the product the ad message becomes more of a priority and their attitude toward the ad message changes. We've all done it.

I have had more than a few folks praise my copy and state that what I describe is what the pickup sounds like...I must be doing something right.

[jrfrond]

Jeez, have you ever gone to NAMM???

In the end, all that REALLY matters is the tone. How the consumer is enticed really makes no difference. Besides, what sounds like a PAF, for instance, to one set of ears may NOT sound like that to others. It's all very subjective. As far as processes, nomenclature, sci-fi mumbo-jumbo, etc. is concerned, it's all part of the advertising game. No one is innocent, no one is safe.

[David Schwab]

I have had more than a few folks praise my copy and state that what I describe is what the pickup sounds like...I must be doing something right.

Then you are being honest, right? That was the point. Were the two companies I quoted being honest in your opinion?

It's not about cynicism, it's about lack of honesty. In the two examples I gave both were not totally truthful about their product. There's a thing called truth in advertising, right? Sure, they aren't going to say "these cheap asian pickups are made of fiberboard because it's cheaper than injection molding" or "this guitar has an OK distortion circuit that sounds nothing like a tube amp", but there are points between both extremes.

In both examples they gave information that was incorrect, and used it as selling points. That's bad advertising and bad marketing.

You can find many examples of good marketing that is truthful. If you have a good product you shouldn't need to lie about it. I'm not talking about "flowery" language. I know how to write good ad copy, as I had been in the publishing field for the past 38 years.

Also in both examples I gave it shows that the manufacturer either doesn't know much about their own products, or is just making up stuff to make the products look good. That's not valid marketing.

That's "bullshit marketing". It's different from marketing a body spray that shows girls chasing you around, because no one believes that anyway. If you are giving technical info on a product it needs to be accurate, or all trust is lost on that company once you discover the product does not live up to the inflated image provided in the marketing.

Now if they are teaching that in schools as valid marketing, then that's one of the problems with society today. There is this big greedy trend where people just want to make a quick buck at the expense of quality service or honesty. That's why spam email is so prevalent.

None of that has to do with cynicism.

[martin manning]

Interesting discussion; not unlike trying to describe the taste of wine. There is a quasi-standard vocabulary for that, as there is for describing "tone," although I'd argue that wine tasting terms are more consistent and widespread in their usage and meaning. A good wine critic can accurately describe, to those who speak the language, what a wine will taste like and how it relates to others of the same type, but it is still very subjective.

Sound files are very good for conveying overall character, and they offer the distinct advantage of being electronically transmittable. Usually they are offered as a demonstration of the qualities of a single device, though, and that will always be problematic since the device (pickup, guitar, amp, effect) is but a part of a larger whole. I agree completely with the notion that simplifying the ancillary equipment is a good way to minimize its influence, but some might feel its better from a marketing standpoint (uh-oh... here we go) to show your product in a way that will enhance its qualities. Again there is an adage from the wine industry that applies: buy it with bread, but sell it with cheese (or something like that). I think I prefer the simpler approach, but with a complete description of the other equipment included. Like someone already said, the bottom line is that as a buyer, you will ultimately have to taste it yourself, in your house to see if it fits your ideal.

MPM

[kevinT]

It's not about cynicism, it's about lack of honesty. In the two examples I gave both were not totally truthful about their product. There's a thing called truth in advertising, right? Sure, they aren't going to say "these cheap asian pickups are made of fiberboard because it's cheaper than injection molding" or "this guitar has an OK distortion circuit that sounds nothing like a tube amp", but there are points between both extremes. .

I agree. Most folks fail miserably at marketing and advertising and they resort to some grandiose claims. Sometimes it's intentional (false advertising). Other times they are just "marketing challenged" and they just say ridiculous stuff because they don't know what else to say-- so they go overboard. The problem is they fail to fully describe the features and tie in the associated benefits of those features of the product. Those examples that you provided can be rewritten to convey information about the product more accurately and convey the benefits of those features.

In both examples they gave information that was incorrect, and used it as selling points. That's bad advertising and bad marketing..

I agree.

You can find many examples of good marketing that is truthful. If you have a good product you shouldn't need to lie about it. I'm not talking about "flowery" language. I know how to write good ad copy, as I had been in the publishing field for the past 38 years...

True.

Also in both examples I gave it shows that the manufacturer either doesn't know much about their own products, or is just making up stuff to make the products look good. That's not valid marketing..

That in fact could be the case.

That's "bullshit marketing". It's different from marketing a body spray that shows girls chasing you around, because no one believes that anyway. If you are giving technical info on a product it needs to be accurate, or all trust is lost on that company once you discover the product does not live up to the inflated image provided in the marketing. .

Agreed.

Now if they are teaching that in schools as valid marketing, then that's one of the problems with society today. There is this big greedy trend where people just want to make a quick buck at the expense of quality service or honesty. That's why spam email is so prevalent.

None of that has to do with cynicism.

It's the bad marketing/advertising (lies, puffery, etc..) that is all around us that has created the cynicism that we have developed over time about companies and what they're trying to sell us through advertising.

No. I assure you that they're not teaching this stuff (bad marketing) in school. Quite the contrary. They're teaching students how to communicate effectively in creative ways...and how to do it right.

Believe it or not, there is quite a bit of work that goes into an ad campaign. There is a method to the madness.

Before a marketing initiative begins a Marketing Plan is created which includes developing the "Big Idea" for the product. In other words, what key feature/benefit about the product is the company going to focus on. This is usually based on what is most important to the target audience.

Other considerations:
--Graphic design-communicating you point visually.
--Media placement- what is the best way to reach your audience with your ad message. Getting the biggest bang for your ad dollar.
--Tracking results. Did the campaign accomplish what you wanted it to do?

There is more bad advertising/marketing than there is good that is for sure.

But when done right, good adversing can convey your point and make it stick in the mind of your customer.

For example, there was a pepto-bismol commercial in which it showed a volcano erupting (metaphor for your stomach) and then it showed someone with the product pouring some down the hole and putting out the fire which is to convey that the product is soothing the distress. To me, that was an excellent ad. It got the point across in a creative memorable way.


If you look at my product descriptions, I open it up with some creative text to create interest and entice folks to read more. My descriptions are more of a story and why I built the pickup.

My bottom line line is, whether it's a word that the pickup maker has come up with to describe a feature (i.e., magnetic buffering, Rosie wrap, a special potting solution, aged magnets, a special magnet wire, etc...) I just don't think that it should be looked upon as bullshit if it unique to the seller, and the claim can be proven.

[salvarsan]

This begs the definition of "bullshit," which most would agree is a claim that is intentionally misleading or deceptive.

In the sense that my little soliloquy may not be used directly in fertilizing one's garden, I will stipulate that it is not, strictly speaking, bullshit.

The text above is really smelly, but I'd say it is more like "flowery," in the extreme. I don't see anything there that is a false claim, just subjective opinion (expressed in a manner that borders on salacious).

Salacious?

Only when you read it aloud -- then it's obviously a blowjob.

Arousing the interest of a potential customer, even if it is based in skepticism, makes it successful "advertising copy." None of it could be disproved by objective measurement, and therefore it is not fraudulent.

Still sounds like bullshit to me.

Yours in fresh creamy smoothness,
-drh

[salvarsan]

So what you're saying is you would rather just see an image of a pickup (what it looks like) and have an MP3 file of what it sounds like? No words describing it?

Or nearly so.

Throw in some average technical specs like DC resistance and a form factor
or a mounting template as needed. An unloaded impedance plot would be
very nice, an input/output transfer curve would be utterly terrific, but I
stopped believing in Santa Claus a long time ago.

Clearly, I am not your average consumer, so I don't want to waste time on
ad copy which you yourself agree contains unquantifiable descriptions.

Just tell me what is quantifiable, i.e., which ballpark it's playing in.
Seymour Duncan makes an honest attempt to do exactly that.

All the rest is bullshit.

Yogurtly yours (viz., fresh creamy smoothness),
-drh