Is it worth the effort to replace the plastic nut with a bone nut on my Epi Dot?

[Humbucker]

I bought an Epiphone Dot Deluxe about four years ago and I'm quite happy with it overall. The only real problem that I had with this guitar was that the cheesy pickup selector switch started acting up within days of buying it. So I pressured the store that sold me the guitar to replace the switch with something better.

I've read numerous posts about people replacing the plastic nut with a bone nut, they claim that it made a big difference in the tone. What do you guys think? Is it worth the effort to replace the nut?

And I'm also wondering if the nut is totally out of the tonal equation when fretting notes on the neck? Does the nut only effect the tone when the strings are played open? Kind of a dumb question I suppose but I'm just curious.

[Mouthurst]

I have built over 40 stringed instruments. I wouldnt change the nut I dont think it warrants the expense unless it's causing buzz by malfuntioning in some way, therefore I dont think it makes any difference except maybe a miniscule amount when using open strings Since you're using an electric;for me there aren't any other kind as I dont like acoustic guitars, therefore-the style of AMP and speaker set up is the most important peice of the equation.-At least for me.

[Mark Hammer]

If you use open strings a lot, it may be worth it. But if the string is generally more likely to see a finger tip between the bridge and the nut, the nut composition won't play that much of a role in your tone.

Having said that, a nut well cut is always a worthy addition to just about any guitar, regardless of whether it is bone or synthetic.

[roast]

^Agreed. The main reason why people replace plastic nuts with bone ones is because it increases sustain. Im confused as to why people dont know that.
Intonation is also another key factor in replacing a nut.

Im not exactly sure what sort of bridge an Epi dot has, but if its a non-locking trem bridge, you might be better off replacing the nut with a graphite one. Or, if your Dot seems to lose tuning easily, use a graphite nut.

[David Schwab]

And I'm also wondering if the nut is totally out of the tonal equation when fretting notes on the neck? Does the nut only effect the tone when the strings are played open?

Only effects open strings. Some people compensate intonation at the nut, and claim that effects notes all the way up the neck. I've always been skeptical about that, but I suppose I'd have to try it and see.

I use zero frets on all of my basses.

[Satamax]

Only effects open strings.

Nope, i also build guitars, and imagine i have sorts of a clue, fwiw Basicaly the plastic nut being softer absorbs energy, would it be direct energy on open strings, or energy from the sympathetic vibration of the string above where it's been freted. Thought it's minimal. It's important on an acoustic where the neck plays a role in the sound, imho, remember that even tho the string is freted, the nut and tuners still bear some of the string tention, the neck moves ever so slightly in relation to the body making the back move in a pump action, varying the internal volume of the guitar, through the means of leverage (that one of the reason why open strings are louder) On a 14° head angle, the total load on the nut is about 17KG iirc, with 13/56. Ok on an electric, it's not thjat all important, but can still play a slight role in the guitar's sound and feel. And above all, it not that expensive a mod, i charge 38 euros for a handmade bone nut. Thought, go to see a proper guitar tech, not the local shop owner David check this http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/howitworks.htm, well, you're most certainly aware of this. I had a better link that someone published on the MIMF, but it's now dead. Legal isues i bet.

Bye.

Max.

[David Schwab]

Nope, i also build guitars, and imagine i have sorts of a clue, fwiw Basicaly the plastic nut being softer absorbs energy, would it be direct energy on open strings, or energy from the sympathetic vibration of the string above where it's been freted. Thought it's minimal. It's important on an acoustic where the neck plays a role in the sound, imho, remember that even tho the string is freted, the nut and tuners still bear some of the string tention, the neck moves ever so slightly in relation to the body making the back move in a pump action, varying the internal volume of the guitar, through the means of leverage (that one of the reason why open strings are louder) On a 14° head angle, the total load on the nut is about 17KG iirc, with 13/56. Ok on an electric, it's not thjat all important, but can still play a slight role in the guitar's sound and feel. And above all, it not that expensive a mod, i charge 38 euros for a handmade bone nut. Thought, go to see a proper guitar tech, not the local shop owner David check this http://www.buzzfeiten.com/howitworks/howitworks.htm, well, you're most certainly aware of this. I had a better link that someone published on the MIMF, but it's now dead. Legal isues i bet.
.

The neck plays a BIG part, maybe the biggest part, in the sound, in my opinion. I have made basses with bolt on necks, and just changing the neck made it sound like a totally new instrument. A flexible neck loses tone.

I use zero frets. The nut is only to keep the strings spaced correctly. If you remove the nut, you wont hear a difference.

I also believe in a regular instrument with a string nut, that removing the nut will not change the tone of the fretted notes. I say this because I've done it many times.

As far as the nut and tuner bearing some of the string tension... what about locking nuts, and headless guitars? The part of the string behind the nut and bridge saddle doesn't do anything.

Regarding the Buzz Feiten system. There was a big discussion on compansated nuts at the MIMF forum not long ago. I say that a properly cut regular nut works fine. The reason you would have tuning issues on the low frets is due to the nut being too high, and that causes the string to stretch out of tune. A zero fret side steps the whole issue.

Rick Tuner posted some stuff about this on that same forum a while back. He said he had a long discussion with Feiten, and he says even though Feiten is convincing, Turner thinks it's a bunch of snake oil. He said he got Feiten to admit that if you have a zero fret that his system is not needed.

I say turn your guitar up, and intonate it. Now capo the guitar at the third fret, and remove the nut. The guitar will still play in tune, because the capo is determining the string length, and they are still tuned to pitch. Moving the nut at this point wont change anything. In fact just fretting a note takes the compensated nut of of the equation.

The problem with compensated nuts, is they would have to be changed for different string gauges and brands. It's not just string length and tension. Different gauges matter, and different strings have a different core to wrap ratio, which effects the flexibility of the string. The stiffer a string is, the more out of tune the harmonics are, which is why they do stretch tuning on pianos. This is because the string now behaves like a rod.

That's my $0.02

[Satamax]

The neck plays a BIG part, maybe the biggest part, in the sound, in my opinion. I have made basses with bolt on necks, and just changing the neck made it sound like a totally new instrument. A flexible neck loses tone.

That David, i think we all know and agree, and a soft neck can be usefull in some cases for some tones, tely and SG comes to mind. What i was talking about isn't the play but rather the movement given to the back by the neck and heel in an acoustic guitar.

I use zero frets. The nut is only to keep the strings spaced correctly. If you remove the nut, you wont hear a difference.

I bet some of us will hear it, thought it might be subtle and you might think it's an halucination, i'm pretty sure it changes.

I also believe in a regular instrument with a string nut, that removing the nut will not change the tone of the fretted notes. I say this because I've done it many times.

Same reply again. Thought it will be far less noticeable on a zero fret instrument imho.

As far as the nut and tuner bearing some of the string tension... what about locking nuts, and headless guitars? The part of the string behind the nut and bridge saddle doesn't do anything.

Ok the string behind the nut does jackshit, if you say so! It never move sympathéticaly with some notes. But the geometry and mechanics play a role in the sound of the guitar I could draw some force diagrams, but i'm pretty sure you know all about this already.

Bout the Buzz Feiten thing, well, i think we're both on the same side, it's imagination.

Bye.

Max.

[David Schwab]

Ok the string behind the nut does jackshit, if you say so! It never move sympathéticaly with some notes. But the geometry and mechanics play a role in the sound of the guitar I could draw some force diagrams, but i'm pretty sure you know all about this already.

It does add some sound sometimes, but my point was it doesn't effect the tuning or even the tension. For a given pitch, at the gauge/mass and length of the scale, it's all about the distance between the nut and bridge. You might be able to bend easier with different amounts of string between the nut and tuners for instance, but the tension hasn't changed. Also the more flexible a string is, the truer the harmonics. I think the core to wrap ratio is important. As an example, I really like D'Addario bass strings, and really dislike GHS Boomers... I don't like their feel. The tension seems all wrong. Too floppy or something.

Bout the Buzz Feiten thing, well, i think we're both on the same side, it's imagination.

If you usually cut your nut on the high side, it could very well improve the intonation on the lower frets, but I'm not convinced it would help the entire guitar, nor is it really necessary. If you nut is too high, your lower notes will be sharp.

I know some good builders that swear by compensated nuts however. I'll have to at least give it a try at some point. Who knows? I might change my mind. We are always learning.

[RickyD]

Probably not worth it...

If you replace the nut, I don't think you would notice a difference in tone. There just isn't enough difference in mass between bone and plastic to change your headstock impedance significantly.

Now if your plastic nut is not cut properly, there's a lot of improvement possible with regard to playability, playing in tune, and staying in tune. There's a good presentation of this on Bill Nash's web site.

http://www.nashguitars.com/Setup.htm

Consider taking the instrument to a good luthier and asking, "What would you recommend to make this a better sounding / better playing instrument?"

[dbtk44]

If you replace the nut, I don't think you would notice a difference in tone. There just isn't enough difference in mass between bone and plastic to change your headstock impedance significantly.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here, because there is a GREAT deal of difference between the density of a piece of plastic, and the leg bone of a cow.

On a properly executed nut, bone will indeed make a noticeable difference in the tone and volume of the strings, as well as the sustain. More so on an acoustic guitar of course, but noticeable on an electric as well.

[RickyD]

Well, if you can hear the difference, it's real. My ears are a little messed up from too much loud stuff, so I don't always hear what others do. Thanks for chiming in.

[ampcession]

Absolutely a bone, or even better an ivory nut is far superior to plastic in sveral important ways, not the least of which is bone is denser. If you plan on keeping the guitar, changing the nut will not only improve tuning stability,tone and sustain(especially on open strings). It will also make you feel better about the quality of the guitar which in turn may affect your playing in a positive way. That may sound ridiculous, but many intermediate to advanced level players whose guitars I have removed the plastic nut from and replaced with bone have told(and shown) me that their playing has improved. If you think it's better, it can inspire you to play better.

[mjmiller]

Please, please don't get an ivory nut or an ivory anything, ever. Maybe I'm an animal loving nut, but to think of a majestic elephant, butchered exclusively for its tusks, so we can have better tone for our open strings... *shudder* I know, I know 'they don't kill elephants for guitar nut ivory' however, any purchase of ivory contributes in some small (or large) way to the ivory market, increasing demand and encouraging some poor soul in Africa to pull the effing trigger, even if it's recycled piano key ivory. Check out the latest national geographic for some heartwrenching photos that will hammer home what I'm trying to express. It's freaking sad.

I recommend graph tech nuts or roller nuts (I also recommend zero frets)- if your guitar ever goes out of tune after a whammy dive or heavy bending, that's your ticket home. Oh yeah, and it you play a fender, get an aftermarket string retainer, too. I'd better stop now, because while I have a strat and a pbass, I have some huge gripes about borderline criminal negligence and idiocy on their part and I don't wanna make enemies by appearing to bash on Leo. (I play my strat every day and I love it, but I had to fix it first

If you play open tunings a lot, like Michael Hedges or Leo Kottke stuff, get a freaking hard nut. But if you do, you should do the same at the saddle end - it's FAR MORE critical to the tone and sustain of both acoustics and electrics than the nut end is, unless you have a defective, buzzy nut. Pop an unwound G on my strat and you'll cringe - but that's because I run 56 44 32 24 17 13 in a variety of wierd tunings
for standard stringing and tuning, I have a set of shims I made by shaving one of those "cool" grahpit impregnated picks with a razor

The density of the nut is not the important part - the rigidity of the nut is. Graphtech nuts are less dense than bone or plastic, but have better sustain and tone because they are far harder than either. Also, they lubricate the strings' movement on a microscopic level.


Best advice so far: If it's worth it, take it to a competent, honest luthier and ask for his/her professional opinion on the best, most cost effective ways to spruce up your guitar.


Michael Miller

[TD_Madden]

Their used to be a guy on the internet selling fossillized mammoth-tusk parts, think picks as well as nuts......haven't seen his ads in awhile though.