Magnets- Output, Tone, etc.

[eblock]

Could somebody explain why ceramic magnets produce a hotter p/up? Is it a higher gauss, or the material they are composed of or something else? If its a matter of gauss, could an alnico magnet be charged to the same level as a ceramic and provide similar output while still retaining its own characteristic sound?

Also, I have read somewhere the slug pole pieces in a humbucker tend to have slightly more output, is this due to their having a bit more mass than the adjustable poles? If so, is there a way to equalize them without adding more winds to the one coil?

One more question (sorry)- if you took a humbucker, did away with the bar magnet, and had two bobbins drilled for slugs and put alnico-2s in one bobbin, 5s in the other, and charged them, would it result in a kind of blended tone, or not really work at all?

[madialex]

Could somebody explain why ceramic magnets produce a hotter p/up? Is it a higher gauss, or the material they are composed of or something else? If its a matter of gauss, could an alnico magnet be charged to the same level as a ceramic and provide similar output while still retaining its own characteristic sound?



I think DS could explain this area pretty well.



Also, I have read somewhere the slug pole pieces in a humbucker tend to have slightly more output, is this due to their having a bit more mass than the adjustable poles? If so, is there a way to equalize them without adding more winds to the one coil?



Not sure about more output, normally the slug coil is hotter as a rule of thumb, making it slightly hotter. I would think you could wind them the same and get the same output because on the screw side you have the screws and the keeper bar making it almost the same amount of metal as the slug side.


One more question (sorry)- if you took a humbucker, did away with the bar magnet, and had two bobbins drilled for slugs and put alnico-2s in one bobbin, 5s in the other, and charged them, would it result in a kind of blended tone, or not really work at all?

It would result in a blended tone and would work, make one set of rods north up and the other south up just as you would have the screw side south and the slug side north or visa versa depending on how you do it, south on the screw side seems to be the norm.

Hope this helps and please anyone jump in and correct any mistakes I have made...

[Zhangliqun]

Could somebody explain why ceramic magnets produce a hotter p/up?

I presume you mean hotter than Alnico? Most grades of Alnico (1/2/3/4/5), yes. But Alnico 8 has as much beef as ceramic, if not maybe a little more, and Alnico 6 is pretty close. There's also Alnico 9 through 12 though I haven't heard of anyone using them for pickups, most likely because they are too strong.

Is it a higher gauss, or the material they are composed of or something else? If its a matter of gauss, could an alnico magnet be charged to the same level as a ceramic and provide similar output while still retaining its own characteristic sound?

Every magnet has a limit to the amount of magnetic charge it can hold, and Alnico 1 through 5 can never be charged to give as much output in a pickup as a ceramic. As mentioned above there are some grades of Alnico even more powerful than the ceramics used in guitar pickups. There is also more than one grade of ceramic. Ceramic 5 and 8 are the two that I know of, and their numbers obviously imply the existence of 1/2/3/4/6/7 at least, though I don't know if those other grades are useful. If I recall correctly, C5 is the ceramic used in guitar pickups.

Also, I have read somewhere the slug pole pieces in a humbucker tend to have slightly more output, is this due to their having a bit more mass than the adjustable poles? If so, is there a way to equalize them without adding more winds to the one coil?

It's partly because they are wider than the poles, but mostly because they are shorter and don't extend magnetic field below the pickup the way the screws do, which thins/dilutes the magnetic field slightly.

One more question (sorry)- if you took a humbucker, did away with the bar magnet, and had two bobbins drilled for slugs and put alnico-2s in one bobbin, 5s in the other, and charged them, would it result in a kind of blended tone, or not really work at all?

Seymour Duncan makes a pickup just like that called the Stag Mag, though it uses all A5 rods. But a similar pickup with A5's in one coil and A2's in the other would work. As for whether it would sound good or not, it depends on personal taste, though I think in a bridge pickup, Alnico 2 on the bridge side and A5 on the side facing the neck would sound pretty good. The highs would be sweeter and rounder.

[soundmasterg]

I have a custom Wolfetone pickup in my Strat with A5 magnets for the bass strings and A2 for the treble strings. It is around 8.5k DCR with 42 and sounds great.

Greg

[Zhangliqun]

I have a custom Wolfetone pickup in my Strat with A5 magnets for the bass strings and A2 for the treble strings. It is around 8.5k DCR with 42 and sounds great.

Greg

Yes, mixing Alnico rods in a Strat pu will work too. The first I heard of it was Duncan's Five-Two, which is just what you described, except the coil is vintage ranged, low 6's or so. I've made a couple of "hybrids" myself, including one in the mid-8's. One was A5 and A3.

[soundmasterg]

Yah, lots of guys do the five/two thing...I think Fralin does too. Do you notice much of an output difference with the five/three pickup? Or do you degauss the five down to fit better with the three?

Greg

[Zhangliqun]

Yah, lots of guys do the five/two thing...I think Fralin does too. Do you notice much of an output difference with the five/three pickup? Or do you degauss the five down to fit better with the three?

Greg

It works fine, the overall balance is very nice. Very often Strats will sound like two different guitars when you go from the high strings to the low, and typically the low strings sound dull or even relatively muddy.

The A5's don't make the wound strings sound louder than the A2/A3's on the plain strings so much as they just sound clearer and brighter. Some snap and twang is there that's otherwise missing. So the thing I noticed about the 5/2's and 5/3's I've made is that for the first time it sounds like all 6 strings are from the same guitar.

[soundmasterg]

Thats cool. I noticed the same thing with my Wolfetone 5/2, but I didn't think of trying a 5/3 because I figured the much weaker 3's wouldn't keep up. Nice to know theres a benefit to it.

[Tonerider]

I have tried an A2/A5 bucker just like you mentioned! I was fired up with the spirit of discovery!

A few pointers

1. Using standard humbucker bobbins may not be the ideal thing. 1/4 coil height and alnico poles arent really ideal. Think about using Forbon and a 3/8 coil height. It will sound better split too.

2. If you have good ears, or even mediocre ears like me, you will hear a definitely two-track sound going on. You can literally hear both of the coils working. This is pretty strange as you would think that the their signals would be summed up in series, but the truth is that you have two seperate attacks and two seperate decays going on. Kind of like playing with a harmoniser without a pitch shift.

3. I didnt try listening in parallel, but wish I had now!

[Peter Naglitsch]

Also, I have read somewhere the slug pole pieces in a humbucker tend to have slightly more output, is this due to their having a bit more mass than the adjustable poles? If so, is there a way to equalize them without adding more winds to the one coil?

It's partly because they are wider than the poles, but mostly because they are shorter and don't extend magnetic field below the pickup the way the screws do, which thins/dilutes the magnetic field slightly.

Have anyone here experimented with this type of slug-pole-only HBs? What more happens with the tone apart from what can be expected from the stronger magnetic field created by shorter/wide poles?

[Norcal_GIT_r]

I make a custom bucker similar to what Andrew described. I use two custom forbon bobbins and alnico rods. All mounted to a bucker baseplate.
It's tone is very 3D and splits are incredible.

[Zhangliqun]

Thats cool. I noticed the same thing with my Wolfetone 5/2, but I didn't think of trying a 5/3 because I figured the much weaker 3's wouldn't keep up. Nice to know theres a benefit to it.

A3 isn't significantly weaker than A2 in terms of output. The tone is ever-so-slightly brighter/thinner but the output is almost identical. Might be the better choice for the high strings if you're going for an overwound mix-mag Strat pu.

[DrStrangelove]

Could somebody explain why ceramic magnets produce a
hotter p/up? Is it a higher gauss, or the material they are composed of
or something else? If its a matter of gauss, could an alnico magnet be
charged to the same level as a ceramic and provide similar output while
still retaining its own characteristic sound?

I got tripped up on this and had to learn under duress that
magnets have TWO major properties that determine their
usefulness: attraction and resistance to demagnetization,
summarized as pull and push-back, I suppose.

For more info, the pull and push attributes are called
remanence (Br) and coercivity (Hc).

Alnico pulls strongly, pushes back weakly. This means
that alnico magnets near each other tend to demagnetize
and, if they are cut too small on their magnetic axis, they
again tend to demagnetize. Because of the weaker push-back,
you get compression effects with Alnico 2 compared to Alnico 5,
and with ceramics compared to alnico's if everything else
in the pickup stays the same (which is never).

Ceramic mags pull weakly but push back strongly.
They are harder to demagnetize and, up to a certain size,
pull more strongly than alnico. This translates to a hotter pickup
with a high dynamic range and better high frequency output.

If you magnetized alnico only to ceramic levels, a pickup would not sound
like a ceramic mag version because the push-back attributes are so different
between the magnets. That doesn't mean it will sound bad, though.

-drh

[soundmasterg]

A3 isn't significantly weaker than A2 in terms of output. The tone is ever-so-slightly brighter/thinner but the output is almost identical. Might be the better choice for the high strings if you're going for an overwound mix-mag Strat pu.

The gauss levels of A3 sure are lower than A2 but I guess the output is close hmm? Must be the different metals in there. I'm very happy with the 5/2 that Wolfe did for me, but when I get around to messing around with my own, I'll probably try a 5/3 to see how it sounds. Thanks for the advice Zhang.

greg

[Sock Puppet]

Alnico pulls strongly, pushes back weakly. This means
that alnico magnets near each other tend to demagnetize
and, if they are cut too small on their magnetic axis, they
again tend to demagnetize. Because of the weaker push-back,
you get compression effects with Alnico 2 compared to Alnico 5,
and with ceramics compared to alnico's if everything else
in the pickup stays the same (which is never).

Ceramic mags pull weakly but push back strongly.
They are harder to demagnetize and, up to a certain size,
pull more strongly than alnico. This translates to a hotter pickup
with a high dynamic range and better high frequency output.

If you magnetized alnico only to ceramic levels, a pickup would not sound
like a ceramic mag version because the push-back attributes are so different
between the magnets. That doesn't mean it will sound bad, though.

-drh

I've only just found this.

Zen bliss...

S.