How much money do I need to invest?

[big_teee]

I think the OP may have wanted to start an argument, LOL ;-) I didn't say "decent." Get a machine winder, build your own, you will be astounded at the increase in clarity machine winding buckers will give you, you have my personal guarantee on that ;-)

More of that Smoke and Mirrors BS.
I'm sure machine winding is great, but Hand Winds, can be great tool
I have noticed, that if we don't do things l like you, it is wrong!
It can be fun however you do it.
T

[SonnyW]

What's this Crap that you can't wind a decent neck Pickup By Hand?
That is Bunk.
There is lots of us that do it Daily!
T
** Here we go Again!

Well I do know that even with humbuckers it is totally possible to wind a good sounding set by hand. I have a set of Fralins P.A.F.s I compare to that are great. He does it all the time. So it can definitely be done. And for single coils it is vintage accurate to hand wind and a lot depends on the skill of the winder. Machine winding is just more vintage correct for some types like P.A.F's, and 60's strats. I wouldn't want to hand wind my '65 strats or P.A.F's and I wouldn't want to machine wind my '59's. If I was good enough I might be able to hand wind a P.A.F. but I've already got a machine and that's how they were done.

[big_teee]

Well I do know that even with humbuckers it is totally possible to wind a good sounding set by hand. I have a set of Fralins P.A.F.s I compare to that are great. He does it all the time. So it can definitely be done. And for single coils it is vintage accurate to hand wind and a lot depends on the skill of the winder. Machine winding is just more vintage correct for some types like P.A.F's, and 60's strats. I wouldn't want to hand wind my '65 strats or P.A.F's and I wouldn't want to machine wind my '59's. If I was good enough I might be able to hand wind a P.A.F. but I've already got a machine and that's how they were done.

I agree!
We use what we have.
Poor Boys have Poor Ways!
If you have a CNC Machine Use it.
If all you have is a Egg Beater, or a hand drill, go for it!
T

[Possum]

Even with a machine winder, the skill of the operator is the key. Hand winding is great for single coils, but I could never nail the bucker tones I wanted nor P90 tones I wanted until I built my machine winder, it opened up a whole other world of clarity hand winding couldn't nail no matter what I tried. Its interesting, last year I bought up parts over a couple years of Adams Maxwell winders until I could build one exclusively devoted to hand winding. Finally got one built and wound a Tele bridge totally by hand guided winding and compared it to my machine wound version. The machine one completely smoked the hand wound one! I was shocked ;-) I am so used to using a machine to do my hand scatters now its probably just because I am so used to doing it that way. I learned a long time ago to program hand wind patterns that work on my auto machine and my machine is super dumb low tech on purpose so that helps too. Its good to learn both but you really should get really good at hand winding before you use a machine winder. A machine winder doesn't really make your life any easier, you can't just turn it on and walk away expecting it to spit pickups back at you, you have to be there for every turn of the coil and baby it every second. Its another skill level and I'm glad I started with hand winding, but wouldn't go back since it works for me so well. I posted in other threads how to learn to build a CNC winder anyone can figure it out and its cheap to do. If you ever built the Lollar winder its a good start since that was an auto-winder.

[big_teee]

Even with a machine winder, the skill of the operator is the key. Hand winding is great for single coils, but I could never nail the bucker tones I wanted nor P90 tones I wanted until I built my machine winder, it opened up a whole other world of clarity hand winding couldn't nail no matter what I tried. Its interesting, last year I bought up parts over a couple years of Adams Maxwell winders until I could build one exclusively devoted to hand winding. Finally got one built and wound a Tele bridge totally by hand guided winding and compared it to my machine wound version. The machine one completely smoked the hand wound one! I was shocked ;-) I am so used to using a machine to do my hand scatters now its probably just because I am so used to doing it that way. I learned a long time ago to program hand wind patterns that work on my auto machine and my machine is super dumb low tech on purpose so that helps too. Its good to learn both but you really should get really good at hand winding before you use a machine winder. A machine winder doesn't really make your life any easier, you can't just turn it on and walk away expecting it to spit pickups back at you, you have to be there for every turn of the coil and baby it every second. Its another skill level and I'm glad I started with hand winding, but wouldn't go back since it works for me so well. I posted in other threads how to learn to build a CNC winder anyone can figure it out and its cheap to do. If you ever built the Lollar winder its a good start since that was an auto-winder.

If that is what you needed, and what you could operate, great!
That doesn't mean others can't control the hand winder to a better level of expertise.
You need to give others the benefit of the doubt, and not everything is always an absolute, just because you think so.
Peace & Tone!
T

[Possum]

Unfortunately you can't do a precision pass on each layer with the exact same number of turns with hand winding. This isn't a judgement, its just a fact. I hand wound for about 5 years and never could achieve the level of clarity that an automated traverse can do. Pickups that I love, PAF's. P13's, P90's, TTops, mini-humbuckers, CBS era Fender pickups, were all wound on automated traverses, mechanical or otherwise. When I built my automated winder, the first pickup I wound was a P90 neck pickup because I could never get them to match a vintage machine wound P90's clarity, and immediately with that first machine wind it was THERE. Neither method is "superior," but machine winding offers something hand scatter can't. Its a tool, and I like tools that expand what I can do.

[RedHouse]

Unfortunately you can't do a precision pass on each layer with the exact same number of turns with hand winding. This isn't a judgement, its just a fact. I hand wound for about 5 years and never could achieve the level of clarity that an automated traverse can do. Pickups that I love, PAF's. P13's, P90's, TTops, mini-humbuckers, CBS era Fender pickups, were all wound on automated traverses, mechanical or otherwise. When I built my automated winder, the first pickup I wound was a P90 neck pickup because I could never get them to match a vintage machine wound P90's clarity, and immediately with that first machine wind it was THERE. Neither method is "superior," but machine winding offers something hand scatter can't. Its a tool, and I like tools that expand what I can do.

Oh yeah, and that's why all those GFS (and other) Chy-neez pickups sound soooo good right?, being all machine wound and that. LOL

Possum you just continue to crack people up for years now the same ol saga... "yadda yadda, I tried it, couldn't do it, so it can't be done, BUT ITS A FACT , blah, blah, phhttt!" ...priceless!.

[Possum]

LOL ;-) Yeah all those vintage machine wound PAF's just sound terrible don't they, pretty funny....

[RedHouse]

Yeah, not to mention all Abigale's hand wounds (and Seymour's, Larry's, Lindy's etc, ...ad nausium, ad infinitum) just sound so terrible too, now that's funny! LOL!.

Better not tell them "This isn't a judgement, its just a fact" they might wanna set you straight.

{Edit} ... I believe it's a matter of concentration, some people can, many can't. For instance I have a friend with ADD and he can't, he starts (daydreaming?) after about the first 2 minutes. I imagine pot-smokers might have the same issue when they space-out.

[Bill M]

I haven't been around much lately but its nice to see some things haven't changed. The OP, I agree with Dave King to start out simple with some stew mac kits and a make shift winder at least untill you gain some skill.

[jonson]

LOL ;-) Yeah all those vintage machine wound PAF's just sound terrible don't they, pretty funny....

No your right Poss they don't all sound terrible. But some do. Have a dozen Pafs in front of you and they all sound different and change from guitar to guitar so just picking one and copying it as a Paf is not what it's about. Both machine winding and hand winding produces good pickups but the one joy of hand winding is that without having to change all the layering and tension all the time you are producing pickups that no matter how careful you are they will always have their own individuality so don't knock it. Both ways of winding have their good and bad points but stop having a pop at people that don't do it your way.

[RedHouse]

... just picking one and copying it as a Paf is not what it's about...

That's gonna hurt, it's the basis of his whole product line.
(or so he has said ump-teen times)

{Edit} sorry if this post sounds "bad".

[David Schwab]

Both machine winding and hand winding produces good pickups but the one joy of hand winding is that without having to change all the layering and tension all the time you are producing pickups that no matter how careful you are they will always have their own individuality so don't knock it.

You know, I always read this, and it makes sense, but it's not my experience at all. All my pickups of a certain model come out sounding the same. It might be that I hand wind very neatly, going for more of a machine wound pattern. I don't scatter.

[Stratz]

You know, I always read this, and it makes sense, but it's not my experience at all. All my pickups of a certain model come out sounding the same. It might be that I hand wind very neatly, going for more of a machine wound pattern. I don't scatter.

I think that after hand winding for so long one would have to intentionally change their pattern and tension to hear any real difference.

I get pretty much the same sound out of any specific build and the DCR and inductance read very close as well. I always wind on the slow side.

Second nature perhaps.

[SonnyW]

You know, I always read this, and it makes sense, but it's not my experience at all. All my pickups of a certain model come out sounding the same. It might be that I hand wind very neatly, going for more of a machine wound pattern. I don't scatter.

I can hear some difference from the amount of handwinding scatter, but it is usually very slight. IMO one quite famous hand winder doesn't scatter much either. Abigail Ybarra. I have watched the You tube videos of her winding many times and unwound one of her pickups. It is quite regular. She does do a little funny quick motion on the right hand side of the pickup sometimes, I think that is mostly to keep the fill level though.