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Thread: President Trump

  1. #3256
    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    They need to see eye to eye with him, and if they don't then they need to adapt or get out. They have no business promoting their personal agenda by disagreeing...
    That sounds kinda hard core to me. You have described the perfect toady. A good agent of the administration does the job he is assigned in the manner proscribed. But that isn't the same as agreeing with everything. I think one of Trump's problems is an unwillingness to consider input from anyone. I think a cabinet secretary is not doing his job if he fails to point out potential problems. That isn't disloyalty at all, that falls under due diligence. Yes, of course they ought not go public and oppose the boss.

    Why is someone like Cohn there if he didn't support the agenda? These guys are mainly lawyers, they support the client regardless of their own sentiments. The guy who defends a bank robber need not agree with bank robbery. A running back who thinks he should carry the ball more doesn't refuse to participate in pass plays.

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  2. #3257
    Senior Member SoulFetish's Avatar
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    Bob, I appreciate’ya. And I respect where you’re coming from. But paragraphs 5 & 6 of your last post, while articulated nicely, are spin and totally incorrect. Trump himself says he prefers to have conflicting points of view as a management style. The kind of turnover we’ve seen in appointments and administrative positions in his cabinet and throughout the federal government is totally unprecedented, and point to the negligence and disfunction of his administration .

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    If I have a 50% chance of guessing the right answer, I guess wrong 80% of the time.

  3. #3258
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    the globalists have positioned themselves to make money off of the asymmetry in trade between America and the foreign nations where they have invested trillions of dollars, and a tariff spoils their game.
    Tyhat.
    The game for the last 50 years (maybe a little more) was to produce at Third World salary cost and sell at USA salary price.
    OF COURSE there is a YUUUGE profit in that.

    Only "small" problem is that nobody will buy products made in USA at US salaries , no matter what they say, if an *acceptable* product can be had for half price or less.
    No sales: factories close.
    No Factories: no jobs.
    *Eventually* the buyer base starts shrinking, impoverished Americans can´t buy any more (you need Money to buy) and *some day* the machine must stop.
    Or American salaries must go down (in real terms) and/or Chinese salaries must go up, until both eventually meet halfway, or at least are close enough that outsourcing is no longer profitable.

    A little of that is already happening, but there is still a LONG way to go:

    Notice that not only Chinese salaries are rising (to the point that Chinese companies are leaving China for Indonesia and similar places) but **American** Factory salaries are now "Mc D salaries": here they mention 10/12 U$ an hour salaries.

    Hey, if this trend continues, USA can become a great Industrial power again when/if people accepts a cup of rice and a fishhead for 12/16 hour workdays, 28 days a Month .
    And I am not joking, just applying a little Math.

    The whole reversal may take 50 years or more.

    OR ... it might happen in a few years, by instantly rising foreign salaries and all other expenses.

    How? convincing China´s Communist Party rulers to do so?

    No, instantly, by rising Tariff ... that´s what it was invented for: making foreign products expensive.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

  4. #3259
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    Without a doubt, there are people who he appointed who left for one reason or another, often unexplained. It's unfortunate, but we don't have a lot of transparency in seeing what actually happened. Presidential appointees serve at the pleasure of the President, and if the President becomes displeased with any of them for any reason, no matter how insignificant, they're out.
    Sounds like one of my old bosses that I had the unfortunate pleasure to work for....I got fed up after awhile and left....

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  5. #3260
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    When I read your first Trump quote, I immediately thought of how FEMA crews and the Louisiana police seized everyone's firearms during the Katrina disaster, and how it took years for the people who fought the process to actually get their firearms back.* Rights meant nothing, guns were seized.* Most of those were destroyed, and those that weren't destroyed were ruined from having been thrown carelessly into piles in outdoor storage containers where they sat in poor conditions for a period of years.
    Perhaps a reading of the NYT article dated September 9, 2005 would refresh everyone's memory of this. This was over a week after the Katrina floods had begun in New Orleans and 80% of the 500,000 residents had been evacuated the day before the storm hit on August 29th.

    I could not find the exact number of residents who had not been evacuated by September 8 when the confiscation order was made but armed gangs had been roaming the streets constituting a real danger to the remaining citizens, the police and the military.

    I did read that approximately 700 firearms were confiscated which represents only a small fraction of the total presumably owned by the 500,000 NOLA residents who were not known to be anti-gun. I also read that from the first day police would collect firearms left behind by evacuees so that the criminal element would not seize them.

    In any case it was apparently true that the firearms collected were not protected very well and of the ~550 remaining a year later most were total crap as the good ones had been stolen, probably by local cops who had places to stash them and not by state or federal agent who might have some 'splaining to do, Lucy...

    Police Begin Seizing Guns of Civilians
    by ALEX BERENSON [The New York Times 09/09/2005]


    Mr. Compass, the police superintendent, said that after a week of near anarchy in the city, no civilians in New Orleans will be allowed to carry pistols, shotguns, or other firearms of any kind. "Only law enforcement are allowed to have weapons," he said.

    That order apparently does not apply to the hundreds of security guards whom businesses and some wealthy individuals have hired to protect their property. The guards, who are civilians working for private security firms like Blackwater, are openly carrying M-16s and other assault rifles. Mr. Compass said that he was aware of the private guards but that the police had no plans to make them give up their weapons.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/09/us...civilians.html
    Here is an article that explains how the NRA twisted the facts to make it sound like NOLA's 2nd Amendment rights were violated.

    The NRA Twisted a Tiny Part of the Katrina Disaster to Fit Its Bigger Agenda
    by Adam Weinstein [The Trace 08/31/2015]


    Officials in New Orleans and Washington might not have been adequately prepared for the devastation of Hurricane Katrina, but the National Rifle Association sure was. As government responders floundered for weeks — treating horrified American spectators to images of homeowners stranded above flood waters on roofs, disorder inside the Superdome, and martial law on the streets — the gun lobby group had dispatched its camera crews to the Big Easy to document what it considered the greatest of all these horrors: The disarmament of the citizenry of New Orleans.

    In the 10 years since, as the rest of the country has wrestled with the causes and consequences of a historic natural and man-worsened disaster, a segment of the gun-rights world has nurtured its own narrative of the storm and its portents of future widespread weapons confiscation. “[T]he measures taken to disarm law-abiding firearm owners in Katrina’s wake should serve as a testament to why gun owners guard our right to bear arms so vigilantly,” the NRA wrote in a post last week for the conservative Daily Caller, commemorating the storm’s 10-year anniversary...

    https://www.thetrace.org/2015/08/nra...-confiscation/
    Steve A.

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    Last edited by Steve A.; 03-07-2018 at 06:46 AM.

  6. #3261
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    > "... to make it sound like NOLA's 2nd Amendment rights were violated."

    I'm missing your point. If law abiding citizens' guns were confiscated without due process, then how is it that their 2nd Amendment rights were not violated?

    In response to the comment that only "700" guns were confiscated [sic], the alternative viewpoint is that violating ONE person's civil rights is a crime, and that violating 700 peoples' rights is a sign of the government powers of seizure running amok.

    I remember seeing a news video that showed a shipping container filled with confiscated guns. I'm sure it's out there if anyone wants to look for it.

    Here's the NRA's contrasting view:



    In the following video, one of the people who performed the inventory for the NOLA PD claims that the number of inventoried guns were in the thousands, that only the valuable weapons were inventoried, that the weapons not deemed to be valuable were thrown in a lake, and that the best guns were stolen by officers (just like Steve suggested).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQNBre0uMew

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    Last edited by bob p; 03-07-2018 at 01:57 PM.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  7. #3262
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoulFetish View Post
    Trump himself says he prefers to have conflicting points of view as a management style.
    You're right, Trump says that he likes to have conflicting points of view expressed to him, so that he can watch two dissenting opinions duke it out, and then decide what he wants to do. But that's not the same as having those people disagree with him. And it's not the same as having his advisors badmouthing his decisions to the press, which is what Cohn ended up doing. When you're an advisor to the President, it's your job to serve the President by giving him your advice, not to serve yourself by speaking out against his decisions to media outlets. While it's desirable for an advisor to provide the President with a dissenting opinion in private, it's not part of an advisor's job to take his dissent to the court of public opinion.

    FWIW, Cohen had been talking about leaving the White House for months, so it's not as if his exit today is 100% related to the tariff thing, even though the news media likes to spin it that way.

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    Last edited by bob p; 03-07-2018 at 04:06 PM.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  8. #3263
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Trump signed the metals tariffs on Thursday. They go into effect in 15 days. It looks like Canada and Mexico have been exempted.

    He also accepted an invitation to summit with Kim Jong Un in North Korea.

    Trump Accepts Invitation to Meet North Korea's Kim Jong Un

    It would be interesting to see if Korea could be re-united like Germany.

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  9. #3264
    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Canada is our largest source of imported steel. Mexico is fourth on the list.

    https://www.trade.gov/steel/countrie...imports-us.pdf

    Unification would be great, but I won't hold my breath for it.

    E.Germany was a power vacuum left when the USSR evaporated. NoKo would have to lose the whole Kim family before anything else happens. I don't see them stepping down voluntarily.

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  10. #3265
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    Trump signed the metals tariffs on Thursday. They go into effect in 15 days. It looks like Canada and Mexico have been exempted.

    He also accepted an invitation to summit with Kim Jong Un in North Korea.

    Trump Accepts Invitation to Meet North Korea's Kim Jong Un

    It would be interesting to see if Korea could be re-united like Germany.
    Doubtful. East Germany was an "acquisition" by the USSR, and the Soviet regime (still more or less in place) was not threatened by relinquishing it. In the case of the Korean peninsula, the South could never accept the economic and other conditions of the North (they've been to Paree, so hard to bring 'em back to the farm), and the regime that has shaped and maintained the North as it is would have to completely relinquish control and find themselves other jobs. Kim would certainly land on his feet, but there are a whole lot of minor and other officials who would be out of a job.

    A former U.S. government official, and N. Korea expert, I heard interviewed yesterday was cautiously optimistic about the "talks", with more emphasis on caution than optimism. He enumerated the conditions that N. Korea was pitching for cessation of their nuclear program, and they tended to be close to non-starters with the other side of the table. Keep in mind that the nuclear program is predicated on all the military buildup on the other side of their DMZ, so the U.S. would have to pull out their military, which would impose a burden on the South. Apparently the time frame for program cessation is more protracted than most of us are thinking, on the order of longer than a decade or two. At least that was this fellow's view. Talks are better than no talks, but we should constrain our expectations.

    I think the best we can hope for is a smallish loosening of permission to leave N. Korea for family reunification purposes, and a small reduction in militarism on the peninsula. The national narrative of the North is that everyone is out to get them, so they have to be prepared to deter or fight off the onslaught. That sort of collective paranoia doesn't go away so easily, anymore than American's historical contempt of taxes could be erased by one or more presidents lowering them.

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  11. #3266
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Comprehensive article on Christopher Steele in the New Yorker

    There was a very comprehensive article on Christopher Steele and the dossier he compiled in the March 12th issue of The New Yorker which gives us all of the details on the man, his career, his report on Russia and how he followed strict protocol in its disclosure. Required reading for anyone who questions his integrity.

    Christopher Steele, the Man Behind the Trump Dossier
    by Jane Mayer [The New Yorker — March 12, 2018 issue]


    >>> How the ex-spy tried to warn the world about Trump’s ties to Russia.<<<

    In January, after a long day at his London office, Christopher Steele, the former spy turned private investigator, was stepping off a commuter train in Farnham, where he lives, when one of his two phones rang. He’d been looking forward to dinner at home with his wife, and perhaps a glass of wine. It had been their dream to live in Farnham, a town in Surrey with a beautiful Georgian high street, where they could afford a house big enough to accommodate their four children, on nearly an acre of land. Steele, who is fifty-three, looked much like the other businessmen heading home, except for the fact that he kept his phones in a Faraday bag—a pouch, of military-tested double-grade fabric, designed to block signal detection.

    A friend in Washington, D.C., was calling with bad news: two Republican senators, Lindsey Graham and Charles Grassley, had just referred Steele’s name to the Department of Justice, for a possible criminal investigation. They were accusing Steele—the author of a secret dossier that helped trigger the current federal investigation into President Donald Trump’s possible ties to Russia—of having lied to the very F.B.I. officers he’d alerted about his findings. The details of the criminal referral were classified, so Steele could not know the nature of the allegations, let alone rebut them, but they had something to do with his having misled the Bureau about contacts that he’d had with the press. For nearly thirty years, Steele had worked as a close ally of the United States, and he couldn’t imagine why anyone would believe that he had been deceptive. But lying to an F.B.I. officer is a felony, an offense that can be punished by up to five years in prison...

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...-trump-dossier
    I had to split the 96,000+ character article into 5 parts to be able to post it on my Facebook page (heck, Mr. Trump gets tongue-tied making his 140 character tweets!) Since The New Yorker offers only a limited number of article views per month for non-subscribers here are links to the 5 parts on Facebook and on my Evernote cloud-based archive.

    Part One:

    *https://www.evernote.com/shard/s300/...55cdd67d8f6730

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...&id=1358043705

    Part Two:

    *https://www.evernote.com/shard/s300/...dd600383cdfae2

    *https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...&id=1358043705

    Part Three:

    *https://www.evernote.com/shard/s300/...c2af5a7919be6e

    *https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...&id=1358043705

    Part Four:

    *https://www.evernote.com/shard/s300/...9773113d5d65bf

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...&id=1358043705

    Part Five:

    *https://www.evernote.com/shard/s300/...2e8cc90d7b8986

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...&id=1358043705

    Here was my comment on FB:

    NOTE: This article is split up into 5 parts because FB could not handle the 96,000+ characters in the full article. Be sure to read them in order (it looks like FB only displays the last 2 or 3 comments automatically so you might have to click on "View previous comments" to see links to Part Two and Part Three.)

    Trump & Co. have suggested that Christopher Steele is really shady sleazeball, like a private eye from a 1940's film noir but he was apparently a very highly respected British intelligence agent who went into private practise in 2009 and whose reports have been regarded highly by the FBI and other intelligence agencies.

    Above all he appears to be highly ethical and conducted his investigations, reports and disclosures per accepted protocol, and would never stoop to the actions and motives suggested by Trump, Nunes and the rest of the GOP deniers.

    This is another article from The New Yorker which should be nominated for a Pulitzer Prize because of its thoroughness. Definitely NOT fake news...

    Steve A.

    EDIT I do not assume that this article — or any article for that matter — is the gospel truth. It presents its points in a reasonable manner and it is up to us to decide if we agree with it or not... and perhaps the future might enlighten us to actual truth of the matter.

    So I think it would be a mistake to assume that the article is or is not true because that is really something beyond our pay grade.

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    Last edited by Steve A.; 03-13-2018 at 05:16 PM.

  12. #3267
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    The revolving door:

    Bloomberg TV reports that Rex Tillerson is on the way out as Secretary of State.

    I thought that his quick drop-in and quick drop-out in Chad yesterday was odd, and that his negative opinions about North Korea weren't particularly conducive to holding a summit.

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  13. #3268
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    I think the best we can hope for is a smallish loosening of permission to leave N. Korea for family reunification purposes, and a small reduction in militarism on the peninsula. The national narrative of the North is that everyone is out to get them, so they have to be prepared to deter or fight off the onslaught. That sort of collective paranoia doesn't go away so easily, anymore than American's historical contempt of taxes could be erased by one or more presidents lowering them.
    I certainly have no contempt of taxes — historically its introduction was vitally important as civilization advanced from villages to states to nations to pay for our defense and welfare.

    A few years ago a good friend posted "paying taxes is like giving gifts to ourselves" or something like that (I should have archived it as I do now... my bad!)

    Throughout my working career as a service tech earning between $25k and $50k a year the taxes deducted from my paychecks were around 30-33% — that was just the way things were. If I needed more money I'd work more service calls for overtime.

    When I was growing up I understood that if a person earned $1 million they would owe $900,000 in federal income tax (I did not understand how the top marginal tax rate actually worked at that time.) Back then that worked out really well... it was an incentive for the owners and other rich folk not to be so greedy since 90% of it would go to the govt in taxes so they were more willing to share company profits with the workers. It was also an incentive for the very wealthy to be philanthropists as they gave much of their money to charity.

    The top marginal tax rate was 90-91% during the Eisenhower and Kennedy administrations dropping to around 70% during rest of 60's and 70's. During the Reagan administration that was reduced to as low as 28% which of course reduced federal revenues considerably. There was another big change in the 80's — businesses started hiring more chief executives from outside the company and paying them very well, often with lucrative stock options as an incentive for them to help increase earnings and stock prices. Another change was that the wealthy figured out that it was better to invest their money in good tax lawyers to further lower their tax burden rather than donate their money to charities. The net effect of Reaganomics and the other changes during the "disastrous 80's" (as I like to call them) was the concentration of more wealth among the 1%.

    Going back to the first 25 postwar years, often called The Great Recovery after the Great Depression and WWII, our economy grew in great leaps and bounds, in many ways due to a healthy middle class with plenty of disposable income to spend on the goods and services produced by the private sector. These *were* the years when America was truly great, not because of the rampant racism and bigotry championed during the Trump campaign but because of the more even distribution of wealth in part due to the top 1% paying their fair share of the taxes. (From the beginning of our country our taxes were based on the idea of the wealthy paying a lot more because they could better afford it and to get away from the British system of so much wealth being passed down from generation to generation.)

    So no, I have no contempt for taxes although I do not like how they have been tilted against the working class since the Reagan years (one of the first things done was doubling the payroll taxes for SS and Medicare and raising the retirement age for Social Security from 65 to 66 and even higher!) Unfair... you do NOT change the rules in the middle of the game and I had already been paying taxes for my retirement for 12 years.

    Just my own opinions here and I do respect the right of everybody else to be wrong....

    Steve A.

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  14. #3269
    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Tillerson is gone!
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/13/polit...sis/index.html
    YOU'RE FIRED!

    Trumps new theme song!



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    Last edited by big_teee; 03-13-2018 at 06:02 PM.
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  15. #3270
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    ^ When you publicly say that your boss is an idiot, you shouldn't expect to have much hang-time at your job. That was an "apprentice" level mistake if there ever was one.

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  16. #3271
    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    The revolving door:

    Bloomberg TV reports that Rex Tillerson is on the way out as Secretary of State.

    I thought that his quick drop-in and quick drop-out in Chad yesterday was odd,
    Ol' Rexie must have gotten a headsup about his impending ouster & decided to pick up a king size diplomatic pouch full of fine Afro hash while he still could. I'll bet he's relaxin' by the pool right now, without a care in the world, literally. Thinking to himself "OMG, what a relief ! ! ! ! "

    With Pompeii switching from CIA to Sec'o'State now who will run the shop at Firebase Langley? Hey how about the Sec'o'Education's uncle, the one who ran Blackwater. He knows all about how to run a spook operation. "Everybody wants to work for me!" - - - who said that?

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  17. #3272
    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Let's be fair, the moron remark was some time back now.

    The way I heard it, Tillerson cut short his trip to Africa when he heard he'd been fired. He had planned to be there longer.

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  18. #3273
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Oh, I was kidding about the moron remark. I know that it was made a while ago, but I think Trump is like an elephant. He never forgets things like that. He's probably been waiting for the right time to drop the hammer. North Korea might be the trigger.

    T&T don't see eye to eye on the Korea thing. Tillerson is 100% against having a summit with North Korea, and that kind of interference from the SoS doesn't help if the two countries are trying to have a summit.

    I'm watching Tillerson give a press briefing on TV in real time -- Leo, I don't think he's broken open the diplomatic pouch yet.

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  19. #3274
    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    It would be interesting to see if Korea could be re-united like Germany.
    Well, that´s what they have been trying to do for 73 years now

    They were split by force by the big bullies USA and Soviet Union , against their will, and , since war against Japan was "justified" by a desire to help those they had conquered by force (China and Korea mainly) , it all amounts to treason by those involved.

    In fact, Korean Was was just a way to try to do so, it was an internal Korean affair, a civil war if you wish, and nobody else should have meddled with that.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

  20. #3275
    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    I'm watching Tillerson give a press briefing on TV in real time -- Leo, I don't think he's broken open the diplomatic pouch yet.
    Right you are, I just heard he'll be warming his chair and shuffling paper on his desk until Mar 31. And I'm sure Rex will be looking forward to his first taste of freedom in a long long time, not having to run Exxon or answer to his moron master, starting right on time at midnight April Fools Day how appropriate. Party time, oh yeaaahhh! Break out the blender Doris, I feel like havin' a couple of daiquiris!

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  21. #3276
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    Right you are, I just heard he'll be warming his chair and shuffling paper on his desk until Mar 31. And I'm sure Rex will be looking forward to his first taste of freedom in a long long time, not having to run Exxon or answer to his moron master, starting right on time at midnight April Fools Day how appropriate. Party time, oh yeaaahhh! Break out the blender Doris, I feel like havin' a couple of daiquiris!
    From the article in The New Yorker today...

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-c...ticized-russia

    >>> It’s also possible that another factor played into his timing [i.e., the firing]. Early Tuesday morning, the Washington Post reported that Roger Stone, the Republican dirty trickster and longtime Trump adviser, told an associate in the spring of 2016 that he ”he had learned from WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange that his organization had obtained emails that would torment senior Democrats such as John Podesta, then campaign chairman for Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton.” This conversation took place “before it was publicly known that hackers had obtained the emails of Podesta and of the Democratic National Committee,” the story also noted.
    ● As Reince Priebus, the former White House chief of staff, told Fox News’s Laura Ingraham, Trump pays a great deal of attention to how the daily news narrative evolves. After the Post’s scoop appeared, other news organizations leapt on it, and Stone trended on Twitter. In all likelihood, the Post’s story, with its implication of possible collusion, would have dominated the day in cable news. But once the news of Tillerson’s firing broke, it slipped down the home pages, and Stone dropped off the trending list.<<<

    Steve A.

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    "...dirty trickster and longtime Trump adviser."

    Interesting. In one sentence, that article in The New Yorker discredited one person via an ad hominem attack, and discredited a second person using guilt by association.

    I think their editors need to raise the bar.

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    Last edited by bob p; 03-14-2018 at 05:26 AM.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

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  23. #3278
    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    It is the New Yorker, not a newspaper. They don't try to be news reporters. It has an editorial viewpoint, just as does the NRA magazine.

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    Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

  24. #3279
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Of course, we all know that The New Yorker is not even close to being an objective source for news. But to keep the discussion objective it's only reasonable to post both sides of an argument when an article containing hyperbole gets introduced into the discussion to anchor a point, and to point out editorial bias where it's obvious that editorial bias exists.

    I also think it's reasonable to point out particularly biased sources that get referred to as anchoring points to a discussion, just as Steve has done:


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post




    Yes, I consider YouTube videos published by an ultra-conservative organization like PragerU*** to be an excellent source of unbiased information... NOT!
    In the case of Steve's objection to PragerU, he discredited the above-linked video using an ad hominem attack and guilt by association, discrediting the video because it was produced by people who he deemed to be "ultra-conservative" and not being "an excellent source of unbiased information."

    Steve's own objections can be applied equally to his cited article in The New Yorker; The New Yorker is a liberally-minded publication and the cited article used an ad hominem attack and the implication of guilt by association -- with both offenses occurring in one sentence (!)

    ... Roger Stone, the Republican dirty trickster and longtime Trump adviser, told an associate...
    Instead of dismissing the The New Yorker as being liberally biased, I only mentioned that they needed to raise the bar in their editorial content, because a conscientious editor should not have let that sort of comment slide into an otherwise well-written article. That comment demonstrated that their editorial content had crossed over into yellow journalism, either by oversight or by design.

    We can do better, if we only want to.

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Some Historical Statistics on Tariffs:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tariffs...States_history

    US Average Tariff Rates (1821-2016)


    US Trade Balance (1895-2015)



    Average Tariff Rates by Country



    Notice the changes that occurred in 1971 with the termination of the Bretton Woods agreements. US import tariffs fell to all-time lows. This is when the trade deficits started and majority of manufacturing in America began to lose ground to overseas competition.

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    ToneOholic! big_teee's Avatar
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    Kudlow to become Trump's next top economic adviser!

    In 1987 Kudlow was rehired by Bear Stearns as its chief economist and senior managing director. He was fired in 1994 after abuse of cocaine caused him to skip an important client presentation. Kudlow later admitted to a $10,000 a month cocaine habit.

    Wonder How long it will take him to be back on the coke, working for TRUMPUS?
    T

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    Keep Rockin! B_T
    Terry

  27. #3282
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Cocaine? You left out Kudlow's problem with alcoholism, long long ago. He beat the odds and he's been clean for decades.

    Kudlow is an interesting choice. He's spent enough time on Wall Street in the past 30 years that his longstanding fiscal conservatism from the Reagan years has evolved into a case study of modern Wall Street Free-Trade Globalism. He's fully embraced the Wall Street mindset that whatever makes the stock market go up is good for America. I can't say that I'm 100% on board with that, as that sentiment is founded upon the exportation of middle class jobs overseas to increase profit margins.

    He's also got a very unique writing style. When I read one of his op-eds in the WSJ, I can tell that he wrote it before I'm halfway through the article.

    Will he last in the Trump administration? Depends. He's highly qualified, he believes in "King Dollar," -- both of which are good for America -- but he's definitely a Wall Street-minded Free Trade advocate.

    His free trade beliefs definitely won't go hand in hand with Trump's "America First" agenda, as Kudlow is anti-tariff. That is to say, he believes in the threat of tariffs as a negotiating tool, but he only believes in "surgically applied" tariffs toward our "enemies" and doesn't believe that tariffs should be applied to "our friends."

    The problem with that, as shown in the charts above, is that some of our greatest "friends" have maintained significant tariffs on our goods at the same time that we have had insignificant reciprocal tariffs on their goods. That makes for a lopsided trade balance. It's hard to consider your friends as "friends" when they impose tariffs on your goods and they squawk with threats of a trade war when you threaten to reciprocate with tariffs like the ones that they're imposing on you. Those are the kinds of friends who will smile as they bleed you dry. (Friends indeed.)

    I have to wonder why Trump would pick Kudlow. He is qualified. On some subjects I could see where Kudlow would be a good fit. On the other hand, I can see some issues where he would be butting heads with Trump continually. That makes me wonder how long he will last. Trump has told us that he likes dissenting opinions, but then Trump has also shown us that he gets tired of dissenting opinions rather quickly, and the Free Trade people tend not to last long in his administration.

    Over the past year Trump has shown us that he eventually grows tired of the Wall Street mindset that permeates Washington DC, in which everyone on the cabinet is convinced that what's good for Wall Street is what's good for America. That's the biggest downside to his plan for making America great again -- he's a businessman, he wants to make American a good place to do business, but you have to be careful in doing that, as allowing big business to have their way with everything they want ends up giving you an environment that focuses on what's good for business, rather than what's good for America.

    I'd be happier if he had fewer Wall Street cronies in the administration, but in recent history no American President has done that.

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  28. #3283
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    It is the New Yorker, not a newspaper. They don't try to be news reporters. It has an editorial viewpoint, just as does the NRA magazine.
    Don't all news sources have some sort of editorial viewpoint? I would have agreed with you about The New Yorker 5 or 10 years ago but in the past few years I have run across some very comprehensive articles that I consider to be "Pulitzer quality journalusm" like the one they published last March on "Trump, Putin and the New Cold War", which I still consider to be the definitive document on the issue (at least from a layman's point of view.) BTW co-author David Remnick of that article won a Pulitzer Prize for his 1993 book “Lenin’s Tomb: The Last Days of the Soviet Empire.”

    Trump, Putin, and the New Cold War
    by Evan Osnos, David Remnick, and Joshua Yaffa [The New Yorker — March 6, 2017 issue]


    >>> What lay behind Russia’s interference in the 2016 election—and what lies ahead?<<<

    http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...e-new-cold-war

    https://www.evernote.com/shard/s300/...d193dee6615035
    The article on Christopher Steele was written by investigative journalist Jane Mayer...

    Jane Meredith Mayer (born 1955) is an American investigative journalist who has been a staff writer for The New Yorker since 1995. In recent years, she has written for that publication on money in politics, government prosecution of whistleblowers, the United States Predator drone program, Donald Trump's ghostwriter, and President Trump's financial backer, Robert Mercer. In 2016, Mayer's book "Dark Money", in which she investigated the history of the right-wing billionaire network centered around the Koch brothers, was published to critical acclaim.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Mayer
    As they say you can't judge a book by its cover and even Vanity Fair has published some hard-hitting articles like their review of Trump Grill which prompted an early morning Presidential tweet:

    >>> Has anyone looked at the really poor numbers of @VanityFair Magazine. Way down, big trouble, dead! Graydon Carter, no talent, will be out!
    — Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) 6:05 AM - Dec 15, 2016<<<

    https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2016...p-grill-review

    Steve A.

    EDIT... Oops! I did not realize that you were responding to bob's post and not the one I posted about Christopher Steele. Of course the columnists are not serious journalists...

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    Last edited by Steve A.; 03-14-2018 at 09:05 PM.

  29. #3284
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    "...dirty trickster and longtime Trump adviser."

    Interesting. In one sentence, that article in The New Yorker discredited one person via an ad hominem attack, and discredited a second person using guilt by association.

    I think their editors need to raise the bar.
    That was just a puff piece from one of their columnists, not a *real* article... I just posting one person's take on the situation and wanted to give the author credit for it.

    Steve A.

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  30. #3285
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    Some Historical Statistics on Tariffs...

    Notice the changes that occurred in 1971 with the termination of the Bretton Woods agreements. US import tariffs fell to all-time lows. This is when the trade deficits started and majority of manufacturing in America began to lose ground to overseas competition.
    I have no objections whatsoever to tariffs to protect our industries as long as they are applied intelligently after appropriate studies have been made. That is the way our country has been run for almost 230 years.

    Trump's tariffs on steel might help protect 140,000 steel workers but they could hurt the 6.5 million people working in industries that buy steel — tariffs which could hurt 46 times as many people as they could help. Do the math!

    Just as his tariffs on all imported solar panels (not just the ones from China which already had even stiffer tariffs imposed on them by Obama for dumping them here below their actual cost!) would affect the workers in the solar installation industry who vastly outnumber the workers making solar panels.

    Tariffs would aid steelworkers at expense of far more others
    by Paul Wiseman [AP News 03/02/2018]


    WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump's move to impose tariffs on imported steel is meant to protect an industry that employs about 140,000 Americans. Yet by raising the price of steel, those same tariffs stand to hurt a far larger group of U.S. workers: the 6.5 million who work in industries that buy steel — from automakers to aircraft manufacturers to suppliers of building materials...

    https://www.apnews.com/b83903ad76b24...b12dd6dcc6ea5c
    Steve A.

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  31. #3286
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    Trump's tariffs on steel might help protect 140,000 steel workers but they could hurt the 6.5 million people working in industries that buy steel — tariffs which could hurt 46 times as many people as they could help. Do the math!
    I see a problem with "doing the math" the way you're doing it, Steve.

    Sacrificing American industry one segment at a time may sound good at first, but over the long haul it's an unsustainable plan.

    The reason that we have no wealth remaining in the American middle class is because people in business have decided to sacrifice one industry at a time to provide lower prices for everyone else. That works OK in one instant case, but when you aggregate those instant cases over a period of decades, what's left? 140,000 people lose their jobs here, 140,000 people lose their jobs there, but everyone else is happy because they can buy cheap foreign goods that don't require American wages as a cost factor in their production.

    Keep lathering and rinsing and repeating, and before you know it all of our manufacturing has moved overseas and there are no high paying manufacturing jobs left in America. Instead of having single-breadwinner families that can afford to put their kids through college, we end up with dual-worker families and kids who graduate from college with enough bank-debt that they're bound to a life of economic slavery.

    Doing the math is easy enough, but getting the right answer requires that you look beyond immediate gratification.

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  32. #3287
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    I have no objections whatsoever to tariffs to protect our industries as long as they are applied intelligently after appropriate studies have been made. That is the way our country has been run for almost 230 years.
    Looking at the chart, you'll see a dramatic deviation from how our country has been run for almost 230 years, which corresponds to the year 1971 on the time axis. That corresponds to the end of the Bretton-Woods Agreement. Not coincidentally, it also corresponds to the end of hard currency, the beginning of commodity dumping by foreign countries (which lead to transfer of their unemployment to become our unemployment) and the beginning of the export of American manufacturing.

    The US economy had a pretty good head start over the rest of the world, due to our vast supply of natural resources and the wealth that was generated in converting resources to commodities during the industrial revolution. We were so far ahead of the rest of the world that we were able to tolerate the loss of one industry at a time over the past 50 years without incurring widespread economic collapse. But that trend can't go on forever. Ongoing loss of employment has to be reversed or economic collapse becomes inevitable.

    The problem is that you can't eat your cake and have it too. America prospered during an era of high industrialization because there was widespread gainful employment which led to a prosperous middle class. The American middle class became eroded as manufacturing jobs disappeared following 1971.

    According to your point of view this wasn't a problem because only a small number of people suffered (those in the industries that lost their jobs) while everyone else benefited from the lower prices that we were able to get on cheaply manufactured foreign goods.* America enjoyed the illusion of prosperity through price reductions that were unsustainable. Now that inflation is occurring in China the low cost of Chinese goods will no longer be able to provide illusory prosperity in America through continuously decreasing prices for foreign manufactured goods. Now we're facing a critical time when almost all of manufacturing has left America, and foreign goods are becoming expensive. That creates the painful situation where the American middle class no longer has good paying jobs in manufacturing and they don't have money to buy foreign goods that are no longer cheap. We're in a pinch that was entirely foreseeable and entirely unavoidable.

    Ouch. That really hurts if you're in the American middle class, but it's great way to amass a fortune if you're one of the globalist 1%ers.

    The people who believe in "Making America Great Again" want to return manufacturing to the United States. Bringing manufacturing back to America is a good idea. but it's not going to be free and it's not going to be without pain. Bringing manufactured goods back to America will likely result in an increase in the price of those goods. The pain associated with the increase in prices for those goods is going to be real -- just as real as the illusory prosperity that we experienced over decades of buying artificially cheap goods from overseas. Unfortunately, that pain is entirely necessary if you want to fix the problem. It's to be expected and everyone should be prepared for it. We're looking at a no pain/no gain situation. But the good news is that if people in America have good manufacturing jobs then they should also have money to be able to afford to buy domestically produced goods.

    Yes, when you bring manufacturing back to America you should expect that some things are going to cost more -- just as some things were made to cost less by exporting manufacturing overseas. Ultimately you have to make the decision whether you want good manufacturing jobs or cheap imported goods. You can't eat your cake and have it too.

    I guess I'm not the typical cheepskate who doesn't give a damn about his fellow man. I'd rather pay twice as much for something that's manufactured in the USA so that I can obtain something of quality that is built to last, and so that the USA has good employment and a strong economy.

    Foreign manufacturing gave us some great price reductions, but it ruined our manufacturing base. It was a great high while it lasted, but eventually you have to come down.


    * I realize that this is not the exact argument you offered; it is actually the logical contraposition of your argument that increasing tariffs on the steel industry will benefit a small population while penalizing a larger population.

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  33. #3288
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    Of course, we all know that The New Yorker is not even close to being an objective source for news.* But to keep the discussion objective it's only reasonable to post both sides of an argument when an article containing hyperbole gets introduced into the discussion to anchor a point, and to point out editorial bias where it's obvious that editorial bias exists.*

    I also think it's reasonable to point out particularly biased sources that get referred to as anchoring points to a discussion, just as Steve has done:
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post


    Yes, I consider YouTube videos published by an ultra-conservative organization like PragerU*** to be an excellent source of unbiased information... NOT!
    In the case of Steve's objection to PragerU, he discredited the above-linked video using an ad hominem attack and guilt by association, discrediting the video because it was produced by people who he deemed to be* "ultra-conservative" and not being "an excellent source of unbiased information."*
    Bob, if you insist on quoting one of my posts from a different thread in a different forum can you at least not take it out of context? Immediately after the partial quote you posted I included the entry on Prager U from wikipedia.

    Here is the post I made in the "Self Driving Cars Can't See Black" thread from the Lobby on January 23rd:

    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    It's unfortunate, but when people amass too much wealth they insist on trying to change the world, and they punish people who don't agree with them.* Google isn't an exception.* Check this out -- I found it when it appeared as one of those irritating youtube ads that gets in the way of watching videos.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9_o42QaVnA

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    Yes, I consider YouTube videos published by an ultra-conservative organization like PragerU*** to be an excellent source of unbiased information... NOT!

    PragerU ("Prager University") is a 501(c)3 non-profit conservative digital media organization. Despite the organization's name, Prager University is not an educational institution.
    • PragerU was founded in 2009 by conservative radio talk show host Dennis Prager and radio producer and screenwriter Allen Estrin who wrote "Pocahontas II: Journey to a New World." It is not an academic institution and does not offer certifications or diplomas.
    • Prager created PragerU with Estrin as his business partner in order to present his conservative views and to offset what he regards as the undermining of college education by the left. The videos usually feature a speaker who argues a particular side of a debate for about five minutes.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PragerU

    *** The same goes for blatantly one-sided videos published by ultra-progressive organizations.
    http://music-electronics-forum.com/t45836/#post477945
    -=÷=◇=÷=○=÷=◇=÷=-

    As for your remarks about The New Yorker you were responding to a quote I used from one of their op-ed columnists (not one of their news stories) which suggested that Trump might have decided to fire Tillerson exactly when he did to distract us from the Washington Post article on Roger Stone which had just come out earlier that morning, to take command of the news cycle as he often does.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    Of course, we all know that The New Yorker is not even close to being an objective source for news.
    How exactly is that not an ad hominem attack on The New Yorker?!? Like many publications they have news stories which are subject to editorial scrutiny and op-ed columns which generally are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    We can do better, if we only want to.
    Yes, you can, Bob. You certainly can.


    Steve A.

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  34. #3289
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    >Bob, if you insist on quoting one of my posts from a different thread in a
    >different forum can you at least not take it out of context?

    It is in context. And everything is fair game. Whatever you say on the Internet can and will be used against you.

    You suggested that the James Damore video was invalid solely because it was published by PragerU. That meets the definition of an ad hominem attack.

    I took the moral high ground -- instead doing the same thing that you did and complaining that any article published in The New Yorker had to be invalid solely because it was published in The New Yorker, I cited a specific quote from the article that was logically fallacious, and I pointed out that the editorial content of the magazine fell short in that article. Identifying specific defects in an article is the antithesis of ad hominem. (I know you've admitted to having trouble with the definition of ad hominem before, as you've got a history of calling things ad hominem attacks that were not).



    > How exactly is that not an ad hominem attack on The New Yorker?!?

    I know that you're smarter than that, so I have to assume you're responding with hyperbole.

    You know that rather than making a blanket ad hominem attack on The New Yorker, claiming that something was wrong solely because it was published in The New Yorker, my original post on the subject cited a specific instance in which the editorial content was objectionable due to an ad hominem attack contained within the article. Those are the facts.

    Yes, I responded affirmatively to Enzo's reply that The New Yorker is not an objective news source; you agreed when you stated that it was an op-ed piece, not an investigative report. But now you're pretending that by agreeing with Enzo I was making an ad hominem attack, when you know that was not the intent, as clearly indicated in my original post that cited the logical flaws used by the author.

    So I'm missing out on why you're upset. You deliberately took a quote from the second post out of context while totally ignoring the fully qualified statement in the first post, just to make a stinging retaliatory flame. That seems deliberately disingenuous.

    You can do better.

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    Last edited by bob p; 03-14-2018 at 11:06 PM.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

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  35. #3290
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Here is an interesting commentary on Tuesday's special election in Pennsylania. I emphasize the word "commentary" because some people here apparently do not understand that legitimate news sources*** will publish articles besides hard news stories that of course should subjected to some sort of editorial restraint as to truth and bias.

    Opinion pieces and commentaries are generally published with the implied if not expressed disclaimer that they represent the views of the author(s) and not that of the news organization.

    Trump's spin on Saccone won't work
    by Michael D'Antonio [CNN 03/14/2018]


    (CNN)The White House and Republican leaders are struggling to paper over the failure of their candidate for the special election in Pennsylvania's 18th congressional district, painting the strong showing of his Democratic challenger as a kind of victory for President Donald Trump's agenda.
    • House Speaker Paul Ryan called Democrat Conor Lamb a "pro-gun, anti-Nancy Pelosi conservative." And White House spokesman Raj Shah told reporters Lamb had "really embraced the President's policies and position, where he didn't embrace Nancy Pelosi and the Democratic leader."
    • What this leaves out is that the outcome in Pennsylvania was a verdict on Trump.
    • Saccone is trailing Lamb with 100% of Election Day and absentee votes counted. Lamb has claimed victory -- but Saccone has refused to concede.
    • Lamb's campaign strategy clearly worked, whether Ryan is correct of not about its details. And Trump's approach evidently did not.
    • Donald Trump had hoped to pull a "heads I win, tails you lose" trick with this election. But voters made certain that he couldn't pull it off. The President's old magic no longer works...

    Michael D'Antonio is author of the book, "Never Enough: Donald Trump and the Pursuit of Success" (St. Martin's Press). The opinions expressed in this commentary are his.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/14/opini...nio/index.html
    Of course that is only a very brief excerpt which I am posting here so as to not clog up the thread with excess verbiage and on the hope that someone here might be interested in reading the whole article and discussing it if they so choose.

    FWIW I archive news articles that I find interesting on my Evernote cloud account in text-only format (no ads or images, just words) and share some of them on my Facebook page (I never did get around to starting a blog so I use my FB timeline as a makeshift blog.)

    https://m.facebook.com/steve.ahola?l...5%3A1520522196

    I guess you do have to belong to Facebook to view that link. I joined about 8 years ago when several of the news groups I belonged to moved there.

    Here is the link to the CNN article on my Evernote cloud site and on my FB page:

    https://www.evernote.com/shard/s300/...1b8202713187b2

    https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...&id=1358043705

    *** Unscrupulous news sources will often exert no editorial restraint whatsoever on pieces that are presented as news stories but are actually commentaries and op-eds. I generally try to avoid these new sources on the left as well as the right.

    Steve A.

    P.S. For a "barebones" user interface I log on to the m.facebook site as indicated in the links above (the regular FB site is way too busy and distracting for me!)

    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!

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