Pickup Pricing

[eschertron]

Tone

For the sake of discussion, I'd say each user knows what they want in terms of tone, but may not be able to communicate that 'ideal' to the winder. Also, each winder rates their own pickups - and tries to optimize its tone - by how they hear them in use. How do makers who pride themselves on tone communicate the perception of the pickup's sound to the user? At some point, the prospective buyer can't audition the pickup (or amp, or speaker - almost anything in the music biz!) and then must rely on words or pictures or expert witness to be convinced to buy.

I've read the horror stories of customers who return set after set of pickups because they need to get something that matches the tone in their heads. How do you make money at all when you have a drawer full of returned 'custom' pups?

[jrdamien]

For the sake of discussion, I'd say each user knows what they want in terms of tone, but may not be able to communicate that 'ideal' to the winder. Also, each winder rates their own pickups - and tries to optimize its tone - by how they hear them in use. How do makers who pride themselves on tone communicate the perception of the pickup's sound to the user? At some point, the prospective buyer can't audition the pickup (or amp, or speaker - almost anything in the music biz!) and then must rely on words or pictures or expert witness to be convinced to buy.

I've read the horror stories of customers who return set after set of pickups because they need to get something that matches the tone in their heads. How do you make money at all when you have a drawer full of returned 'custom' pups?

It's a huge problem. I think most customers fall into one of two categories. In the first is the player who understands the limitations of a pickup in the grand scheme of 'tone.' Or they understand it after you explain it to them.

In the second is the player who thinks that the reason they don't sound more like Hendrix is because they don't have reverse stagger strat pickups with a particular color flatwork. There is little ground to be met with such people and I only make pickups for them with the express understanding that, yes, I will create such a pickup to your exact specifications but they are non-refundable. That's a game that only works (I think) at a certain price point.

It's also a reason I stopped putting up sound clips for all of my pickups. It's kinda-sorta false advertising. I can hire a players who is so f-ing good that he could make a wire strung from my radiator to the floor and amplified through a pickup suspended in mid-air sound so good you'd have no doubt it's a great pickup.

At the end of the day I think the best way to do it is to explain your pickups sound like your pickups and that goes for every makers' pickups. I very literally and seriously tell people that, if what they want is a P90 that sounds exactly like a 50's P90 from an ES125 (or whatever) than they need to find it on Ebay, spend whatever they have to to get it, and be happy.

I KNOW I have talked myself out of business with this truth telling but I have only had one return in hundreds and hundreds of pickups. And I do consider it truth telling. I think there is endless bs in this business in particular and the guitar/amp business in general and I'd rather just be as straight with people as I can even if it means losing business.

This very literally happened this morning. I got a call from someone who wanted an aggressive but chimey and airy humbucker. He's very picky, he says. He knows he can get exactly what he wants from BK but doesn't want to spend the money but how much would it cost for me to do the best knock-off of BK's pickups? So I tell him I don't know how to make that pickup, haven't heard the BK he's referring to, and that I can either make an aggressive pickup I know how to make which will be amazing or a vintage pickup with chime and air for days. I even tell him I'll make something like the BK pickup based on specs but that it will not be guaranteed and can't be returned. At this he got upset and told me he can't believe I wouldn't stand behind my work with a return guarantee and hung up.

I lost a customer for certain but I also avoided endless hours in addition to the time it takes to build a humbucker and a possibly bad review/forum s**t talker.

[big_teee]

[QUOTE=jrdamien;454048]

I KNOW I have talked myself out of business with this truth telling but I have only had one return in hundreds and hundreds of pickups. And I do consider it truth telling. I think there is endless bs in this business in particular and the guitar/amp business in general and I'd rather just be as straight with people as I can even if it means losing business.

This very literally happened this morning. I got a call from someone who wanted an aggressive but chimey and airy humbucker. He's very picky, he says. He knows he can get exactly what he wants from BK but doesn't want to spend the money but how much would it cost for me to do the best knock-off of BK's pickups? So I tell him I don't know how to make that pickup, haven't heard the BK he's referring to, and that I can either make an aggressive pickup I know how to make which will be amazing or a vintage pickup with chime and air for days. I even tell him I'll make something like the BK pickup based on specs but that it will not be guaranteed and can't be returned. At this he got upset and told me he can't believe I wouldn't stand behind my work with a return guarantee and hung up.

I lost a customer for certain but I also avoided endless hours in addition to the time it takes to build a humbucker and a possibly bad review/forum s**t talker.[/QUOTET]

That is exactly why I don't care if I make pickups for customers, or not.
I love winding as a hobby, and I dig making a pickup for a particular guitar?
It's the picky cheap-skate customer that gets too me, that I don't miss.
I get enquiries frequently for one off pickups, but they want them to sound great, guaranteed, and cheap.
I tell them good luck with that!
GL,
T

[Mick Bailey]

In the music industry it's very difficult to break the herd mentality that locks people into buying a certain product. The motivations seem to be centred around either artist endorsement, peer pressure or the local movers/shakers. In every location there are respected musicians who form the hub of a radiating family tree and those individuals influence the purchasing decisions of others. I find it intriguing that creativity is locked in a straight-jacket of self-imposed narrow choices. It ought to be the opposite, that creative people seek out products to differentiate their sound from the masses, to create an identity and signature.

I've found it immensely valuable to attend free business development seminars. In particular, there's a guy named Malcolm Gallagher (Biz Vision) and I've been to a couple of his events and previously subscribed to his free newsletter. Regardless of the product, he has immensely valuable information that's easy to put into practice. Maybe there are similar events in your area. He has a lot to say about pricing, discounting etc.

[Achiles]

Big_teee ,in a case like this,placebo effect counts a lot.I show my intruments to my costumers telling them the pikups are Aero,Nord or Delano and they sound awesome.After them knowing the truth it become just ok.

[Mick Bailey]

The other issue is the particular guitar and associated electronics. Hearing a pickup in one guitar doesn't necessarily mean it will sound identical in another. Secondly, there's the sum of small variations in wire tension, magnet strength and winding patterns that causes differences from one pickup to the next. I have a customer who buys the actual pickups he auditions and has me fit them to his guitars. At least one variable is removed.

Your pickup 'blind tasting', reminds me of this;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlMwud7SxEA

EDIT: I'm not suggesting your pickups are Blue Nun, just that when you remove other references people choose what they actually prefer rather than what they're conditioned to prefer.

[Rodent]

How is everyone setting their pricing?

Trying to capture a customer base by offering 'artificially' low pricing only leads to losing those customers when the next, and even cheaper company comes along.

Understanding the market for pickups of similar construction, application, etc ... and then understanding your actual costs are the first steps in accurate pricing. If you're a legit business with real overhead, taxes, insurance, marketing, facilities, etc ... you need to be sure to not price yourself so low that you bankrupt yourself (and possibly one or more competitors) in the process of getting your product out to market. A couple of the 'big guys' who make pickups are also diversified into other offerings, and can 'possibly' afford to gain market share by offering pickups as a loss-leader item because they balance out with significant margin on their other products. (if indeed this is the case) They may instead be contracting some portion their manufacturing overseas in a less expensive location, and keeping costs low by winding 10's of thousands of a coil type at a time.

As a pickup maker who winds each coil to order, and who needs to make a profit to pay bills, eat, and stay in business ... you obviously will have a cost per coil that is significantly higher. The two products are not the same, and setting pricing of a pickup set that's hand wound to order will always be more expensive than a mass produced machine wound offering.

Identify early who you want to be as a company - Ferrari, Ford, or Yugo - and then work your business model and pricing to suit. Keep in mind that once you set your business standard (Ferrari, Ford, Yugo) it's near impossible to grow upwards on the ladder of how customers perceive your product offerings. Consider the market perception of Affinity by Squire, and how their offerings will never be perceived/valued the same as a Fender Custom Shop offering. FCS can always have a sale and sell a unit cheaper, but Affinity will never be able to have an anti-sale and sell a unit at a higher price.


And if you're goal is simply to be a hobbyist who sells to local clients and spend the occasional income to pay for beer at a Friday night poker game, then look at your local market for others who do similar and price accordingly.

[Mick Bailey]

"If you're a legit business....."

That's the crunch. I earn my living from music electronics; I have overheads, equipment to replace, machinery that takes up space and it's really tough. I pay taxes and warrant my work. I take responsibility for the gear I handle and do my utmost to ensure the customer is 100% happy. I pretty much work every hour I can and would perhaps be better off serving burgers. But I really enjoy most of the work, most of the time.

What I have is my offer. If someone wants a rough idea of what something will cost, I'll let them know and they can walk away if they don't like it. I try to be as fair as I can and don't hold people to ransom. If a customer wants to shop around, then that's business. No hard feelings - I do the same thing. Most of my regulars don't ask for a price beforehand. Maybe they always see that my car is older and has more rust than theirs.

What some people miss is they confuse cost and value. When cost is the only factor and there's no consideration of skill, materials, experience or knowledge, then unless you're prepared to work for next-to-nothing you're better off letting that one go. Sometimes you can turn someone around - I always take pictures for a new customer to show the processes in getting their job done. Often there's an element of disbelief that a piece of work that appeared so simple could take so much effort. Like asking the person who makes jam to make the jar as well. And the lid. That's the bad side of modern manufacturing - everyone is a consumer, very often with no knowledge of where or how things are made.

[big_teee]

Big_teee ,in a case like this,placebo effect counts a lot.I show my intruments to my costumers telling them the pikups are Aero,Nord or Delano and they sound awesome.After them knowing the truth it become just ok.

I never lie about guitars or pickups.
At times, I'm probably way too honest!
If I don't like something, or I think it is a POS, I say so! :<)
But, like I said, I'm retired, and it's strictly a hobby and something to do!
T

[Achiles]

big_tee,i donīt lie to my costumers too,itīs just a "quick test".

[big_teee]

big_tee,i donīt lie to my costumers too,itīs just a "quick test".

A quick test, or just a quick white lie?
A lie is a lie, here in the south!
Not sure what you call it where you come from?
T

[rjb]

A lie is a lie, here in the south!
Not sure what you call it where you come from?

"Alternate facts."
But semi-seriously, I would call Achiles' method a quick "fool" test.
It can be good to know when you are dealing with a fool. :sardonic:

[Achiles]

A quick test, or just a quick white lie?
A lie is a lie, here in the south!
Not sure what you call it where you come from?
T

A lie is a lie, everywhere!Even here in Brazil.
Iīm just playing a joke on my costumer.
The idea is to encourage people to like what they hear from the pickups not from the others mouth.

[J M Fahey]

A quick test, or just a quick white lie?
A lie is a lie, here in the south!
Not sure what you call it where you come from?
T

Strong words Big Tee, and quite out of place.
What Achilles does is a little Market Research and Psychological test: he is not lying at all because he does not *sell* them under a false name (maybe you do and think others do the same? ) but he first tells them something and as soon as they say their biased opinion he shows them itīs biased, period.

Please re read his posts.

[Achiles]

"Touché",thanks JM for coming to my rescue,exact wording.