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Transformers: Classictone, Hammond, Mercury?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by nsubulysses View Post
    I just bought 7 50W power transformers from Magnetic Components for really cheap.

    I know it's more power than you're looking for but the price is right

    NOS-Amp-Transformers

    I live in the area and actually drove out to pick them up. I talked with one of the engineers there and we were talking about brands. He was dumbfounded there is not a spec sheet to be found on MM website......
    OhhHoooo kid in a candy store, wish I could get a few for future use.
    The only good solid state amp is a dead solid state amp. Unless it sounds really good, then its OK.

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    • #17
      Most of my transformers have come from organ pulls and unfortunately most have been 18W (either 6V6 or EL84 PP amps). I'm done stripping those, at least for now. I'm keeping my eyes out for stuff with bigger iron in it, though. Just not as many of those available for free...

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Chuck H View Post
        I can't say whether MM iron is good or not because I've never bought into their hype. I seriously doubt it's worth all the extra $$$ they cost.
        I can answer that question with an anecdote -- I'm a MM dealer, I used to buy from them in 25-unit quantities, and I have refused to place any order with them since c.2003.

        I used to buy from MM back in the days when they were a little known custom winder serving the magnetics industry, long before they started directly targeting end users with all of the marketing hype, BS claims and the predatory pricing strategy. Back in the 90s there wasn't that much in the way of internet sales and there weren't a lot of options available if you had an oddball vintage amp that needed an authentic iron replacement. Back then they sold a good product at a not unreasonable price. If you were a dealer back then buying Mercury iron was actually cheaper than buying the equivalent Hammond. Those were the days.

        I signed-on as a dealer and I placed my first order with them for 25+ units. I received several very heavy boxes of very nice iron. When it was time to place a follow up order for 25 more units, I called Paul Patronete (sales) on the phone, he took my order, and a few days later I received a several more very heavy boxes of iron... but this time the contents were disappointing. Being generous, what I received could best be described as fugly factory seconds and QA rejects.

        My second shipment of transformers from Mercury was absolute garbage --

        * I received OT that had only one lead on the secondary side.
        * I received transformers with leads that had started off as 10" but had been clipped down to 3", and then the short leads were spliced and shrinkwrapped to yield 10" overall length. These were obviously used transformers that had had their leads clipped and had been accepted as returns. Instead of removing the endbells and soldering on brand-new leads, they took the shortcut of just splicing the external leads to make them longer. They looked like crap.
        * I received some transformers that were obvious scratch and dents.
        * I received some transformers that were varnished on one side of the laminations but not on the other.
        * I received some transformers that I had paid extra for teflon wires, but the teflon insulation was not adequately proected during shipping. As a result the teflon jacket had cold-formed off of the wire under pressure, leaving exposed wires in the middle section of the leads.

        All 25 of the transformers that I received were so bad that I couldn't use them in custom builds as I knew my customers would have rejected them, and my reputation for quality would have taken a hit because of them. They were all defective in one way or another and I decided to reject them. I called Paul Patronete, my sales contact, to complain. He told me that they would gladly accept all of the items back for a refund, but if and only if I paid the shipping charge back from Chicago to California. Think about this -- they made the mistake of sending me substandard garbage, and they refused to cover the return cost for their defective shipment. They expected me to cover the return shipping costs on their defective shipment. What would it cost to ship a box of 25 transformers rated for 50 or 100 watt amps all of the way from Chicago to California? We're talking about a 200-lb. freight charge that they expected me to pay to cover for their "mistake."

        Realistically speaking, I don't think it was a mistake at all. I think that when I signed-on as a dealer, they gave me a great fill for my first order, to build my confidence and to encourage me to place a subsequent order. Then, when it came to place my second order, they knew that they already had me on the hook. In my opinion they filled that order with all of the rejects, seconds, useless doorstops and other shop garbage that they had accumulated and were waiting to unload. Then they shipped all of the crap to somebody far away, and refused to take it back unless he paid the freight both ways. They had to know that the return freight on 200-lb of iron would be cost prohibitive, so dumping it on a customer was a safe bet for them.

        I spoke to the business owner, Sergio Hamernik, about this and I got nowhere. When I complained about being sent items with spliced leads, he offered me some sort of nonsense excuse that because he had spliced the wires using silver solder, the transformers would have special mojo that made them better than unspliced leads and I should want keep them. Obviously, if there were any truth in that then every transformer that Mercury sells would have extra mojo-enhancing splices on the leads and their marketing department would be hyping it.

        I ended up ebaying off most of the defective iron at a loss. I have kept in contact with them every now and then just to assure that my account is still open, just in case I'm desperate for something special and I'm forced to buy from them in an emergency. Needless to say Mercury hasn't received another penny from me in the past 14 years.

        I've had much better luck dealing with local iron shops like Magnetic Components/Classictone. Their service and technical support are great, and they're close enough that I can do pickups instead of shipping. Mojotone also has some great pricing on high quality products if you have a dealer's account.
        Last edited by bob p; 07-13-2017, 09:23 PM.
        "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

        "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

        Comment


        • #19
          Heyboer was great too. They made the custom OT's for the amps I brought to the NAMM show in 2009. Then I ordered another single custom OT about five years ago and I accidentally stiffed them for about a hundred bucks. I swear I thought I'd paid them. Then I found the Check in it's stamped envelope addressed to Heyboer ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO. I wrote another referencing the invoice and sent it off. I haven't ordered from them since. I guess I'll see how it goes whenever it comes up
          "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

          "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

          "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
          You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Justin Thomas View Post
            Well, it seems we talked you out of an MM tranny...
            I think they ooze that tone mojo only after they drain the raw life-force from your wallet and digest it...

            Justin
            For me, the extra ~200.00 usd for the set (PT, OT, CHoke) is hard to justify, esp when so many of you who do lots of build/repairs have good things to say about Hammond and Classictone.

            Ive read a few posts on other blogs from people who had bad performance (over heating 'could cook eggs', bad sound, short life ...) from mostly no brand name xformers. There's an amp parts supply web site that has xformers for sale, with no brand on them, and they refuse to tell me who makes the transformers! They said "that is proprietary and we WON'T tell you". Hah.
            The only good solid state amp is a dead solid state amp. Unless it sounds really good, then its OK.

            Comment


            • #21
              About the only times when I can say that transformer were responsible for bad tone would be the cheapest examples of some factory amps (both vintage and modern). Some of the OT's made overseas are noticeably poor sounding, but certainly not all of them. Almost anything you buy from a respected manufacturer will be snuff, and nearly always better quality (and tone) than any manufactured amps use. That said, there is a small difference in tone between the vendor products. Small. And since tone is subjective, well... There was a video floating around where someone swapped something like four different OT into the same amp and played the same guitar track at the input with each one. The makers were the usual as I recall. MM, Weber and I can't even remember the other two, but you'd recognize the brands. The consensus here was mixed. Some couldn't discern any significant difference. Others had a preference, but the favorites were different for everyone with very little in the way of an overall "winner". I said very little. It's possible that Mercury actually did come out a little ahead. YMMV. I'll see if I can locate the thread and if the video attachment is still present.

              EDIT: I found the thread. As it happens there wasn't a consistent track at the amp input. But as I recall it was well replicated by the player anyway. Unfortunately the link in the thread no longer hosts the audio clips.
              Last edited by Chuck H; 07-14-2017, 02:01 PM.
              "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

              "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

              "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
              You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by mikepukmel View Post
                They said "that is proprietary and we WON'T tell you". Hah.
                If there's not an EIA code on the endbell then you can bet it's been manufactured by the lowest bidder in China.

                I've seen several online stores that sell their own store branded iron where the EIA code points to an unknown Chicago supplier.

                Click image for larger version

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                "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

                "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by mikepukmel View Post
                  There's an amp parts supply web site that has xformers for sale, with no brand on them, and they refuse to tell me who makes the transformers! They said "that is proprietary and we WON'T tell you". Hah.
                  It's not so much they refuse to tell, it's they can't pronounce the manufacturer's name, something like Hsieh Xiang Qa'lin Zhiu. And sons... Do I get an egg roll with that?
                  This isn't the future I signed up for.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    I've dealt with both Heyboer and Edcor. If you need a one-off custom transformer wound, I had great experiences working with Heyboer. They offered competitive pricing with no minimum order, with prompt and pleasant correspondence back and forth. My output transformer was exactly what I wanted from them. The only problem I had on my power transformer could have been a communication error, in that, I gave them secondary voltage specs under a stated load and they ended up winding them as no load secondary voltages. But I found this out fairly recently and need to give them the heads up about it see what may have happened to be fair to them. They have been great to deal with in the past so I'm sure we can work it out.
                    Edcor is tough to beat for value if you can find a particular transformer that meets your needs, but they build to order and mine took about 4 weeks from order to shipping date. If you need something custom wound, hey have a minimum order and design fee. Someone mentioned them having ridiculous shipping charges, but I paid $19.56 to have one output transformer shipped from New Mexico to Massachusetts. I don't think that's unreasonable. I've packed and shipped several transformers, and I wouldn't charge under $10 to ship a heavy piece of iron that is packed well enough to protect it from damage.
                    Last edited by SoulFetish; 07-15-2017, 03:59 AM.
                    If I have a 50% chance of guessing the right answer, I guess wrong 80% of the time.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Chuck H View Post
                      I'm especially fond of the Hammond 1608 and have heard it in the same model amp next to two other brands. I was first put onto this model by Shea, here on the forum some fifteen years ago. He was killing it at an amp shootout being held in his area using this OT in an 18W type amp. I haven't heard the newer "easy wire secondary" model 1608a. The 1608 has an 8k primary. Good for most el84 applications. If you're planning to use 6v6's and want a different primary the only other Hammond 16XX would be the 1609 at 10k, which could also be run at 5k if you half the secondary load. Though this would change the low band -3dB I don't expect it would be a problem. I haven't heard the 1609.
                      Whatever happened to Shea anyway? He had a lot to contribute.

                      Greg

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        http://music-electronics-forum.com/t42573/
                        "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

                        "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          IMHO... To me a PT is a PT. It either puts out the correct voltages at the necessary current or not. There are a lot of clone (ish) amps being made in China, Indonesia, etc nowadays. Their sources seem to be making more transformers than they need and are now showing up in containers to various mom and pop distributors in the USA. Especially here on the left coast. I just bought a couple for $5 apiece. One for a 2 x EL84 amp and one for a 4 x El 84 amp. Also 2 chassis with both the PTs and the OTs, tube sockets, pots, jacks, etc. Unless you are a purist it pays to check CL and EBay, Google, etc. There are lots of bargains out there. Granted.. they aren't Hamonds, Mojos, Heyboers, whatever. But they do the same damn thing. I build a 20 watt 2 channel amp for $50 this way. Sounds great.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by olddawg View Post
                            IMHO... To me a PT is a PT. It either puts out the correct voltages at the necessary current or not. There are a lot of clone (ish) amps being made in China, Indonesia, etc nowadays. Their sources seem to be making more transformers than they need and are now showing up in containers to various mom and pop distributors in the USA. Especially here on the left coast. I just bought a couple for $5 apiece. One for a 2 x EL84 amp and one for a 4 x El 84 amp. Also 2 chassis with both the PTs and the OTs, tube sockets, pots, jacks, etc. Unless you are a purist it pays to check CL and EBay, Google, etc. There are lots of bargains out there. Granted.. they aren't Hamonds, Mojos, Heyboers, whatever. But they do the same damn thing. I build a 20 watt 2 channel amp for $50 this way. Sounds great.
                            Some amps sound best with cheap iron because that's what they were built with to begin with, and our ears are trained to love that tone. Look at the Tweed Deluxe. The original transformers for that amp were very cheaply made, spiral wound, and they sound great. To properly reproduce the tone of those amps, an expensive boutique transformer is not required. You can get great tone out of a cheap transformer. I think it was Bruce Collins who was the first on this site 15-20 years ago to tell people not to go spending huge sums of money on a boutique 5e3 OT because something like the Hammond 125E was commonly available, dirt cheap and sounded great.

                            For the most part, almost all of the classic fender transformers were "cheaply" made in that they used quality components with simple winding formulas. That kind of wind is easy to reproduce and does't cost much, so it's pretty easy to get a decent sounding OT for a fender amp.

                            On the other side of the coin, there are OTs that DO sound different because of the way that they're wound. Whether or not a transformer is interleaved with a complex formula has a definite impact on it's production cost, and that can have a huge impact on tone.

                            Way back in the day SpeedRacer was one of the first people to realize the market value of the more complex OT winding formulae on tone. He was one of the first people around here to pay close attention to winding specs on Plexi and AC30 type transformers via destructive forensic analysis of rare/valuable original units. 20 years ago Obsolete Electronics was one of the pioneers in the field and you didn't have many other options if you wanted an authentic sounding Woden or a Haddon OT for an AC30. They are different ... in a corksniffing sort of way.

                            The same could be said for the some of the vintage Marshall type OTs. I think that the authentically wound RadioSpares JTM45 and the Plexi type repro OTs do sound different than the rest of the current production iron on the market for those applications. Some of this has to do with variations in the turns ratio and the effective primary impedance, along with the complexity of the interleave formula. Some of these things can make a huge difference, though I have to admit that the amount of hype that has ensued in the marketplace is just ridiculous.

                            It's interesting that the Chinese knock-offs are coming along so cheaply. That's sort of a problem when you're a guy who does expensive destructive analysis of an original specimen to obtain a blueprint for a design, and then have a foreign contract manufacturer who has no respect for your intellectual property rights begin backdoor production. That's an inherent risk in manufacturing anything in China -- they openly steal peoples' designs and then enter the marketplace as their own customer's competitor, undercutting them on their own designs. It's hard to respect the business model that openly steals intellectual property.

                            It'd be interesting to know whether the cheap iron that you speak of is just the knocking-off of cheap transformer designs, or if they're also knocking off some of the more complex formulae, in which case that amounts to selling stolen IP.

                            Got links?
                            "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

                            "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              olddawg was discussing PTs. And I would counter that there is more to it than voltage and current. There is breakdown voltage, will it arc over if the mains goes up 10v? And temperature. Juan has pointed out wire types here. Ther is no-strip enamel, you can solder through teh coating. But if you wind a transformer with that, it gets hot enough, your wire coating evaporates.
                              Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Enzo View Post
                                olddawg was discussing PTs. And I would counter that there is more to it than voltage and current. There is breakdown voltage, will it arc over if the mains goes up 10v? And temperature. Juan has pointed out wire types here. Ther is no-strip enamel, you can solder through teh coating. But if you wind a transformer with that, it gets hot enough, your wire coating evaporates.
                                All this is true Enzo. But honestly if the PT is made for use in an amp sold in the USA, I assume it meets minimum safety specs. And as you always say. Fuses are there to prevent fires. Lol. Honestly... OTs are a bit of a crap shoot to me. My favorite build has a giant old black Zenith OT. I never bothered to spec it out. I just know it's louder and has a better low end response than my other EL84 18watt Marshall clones to me. But who knows? My point is simply bargains are out there to build stuff. You aren't necessarily limited by traditional choices on individual builds.

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