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Oscilloscope, necessary tool or nearly worthless? Battling other shops

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  • #16
    I differentiate between the good guys who need a hand, and the outright pricks who pop up from time to time. I don't see the the good guys as competition, they're just trying to get along and there's enough work for everyone. The pricks are another matter and they even have the face to ring me up and ask for advice. They're the bodgers whose work I get second or third time round. Shipwreck amps and guitars that had the misfortune to end up on their rocky shores. The tale is often "They replaced X,Y and Z, and it still isn't right". Sometimes the work is so bad I zip it up and hand it back, no charge. Just when I think I've seen the most unbelievable thing, there's another that comes along even worse.

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    • #17
      An oscilloscope is just a tool. I have repaired many amps with just a multimeter and no scope. Occasionally I will need to use more sophisticated tools like an oscilloscope to diagnose a problem. I once used a thermal imaging camera to track down an overheating output transformer. The problem turned out to be an intermittently shorting winding that only showed up when voltage was applied. It showed up on the camera as a bright red spot.

      When I go to get my oil changed the mechanics do not use a timing light. But if I take my car in for timing issues, they had better use the timing light and computer diagnostic equipment!

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      • #18
        A scope is a visual volt meter. I think the analogy is more like: when I take my car in for timing, do they use the Radio Shack timing light, Or a sophisticated auto ignition analyzer?

        You can fix most repairs without a scope because most repairs are simple anyway. I can flip the meter to AC volts and measure ripple, or I can scope the ripple, either way I detect it, but the scope will tell me I have that ripple because of weak filtration or because I am missing one side of the bridge. A meter won;t show you asymmetrical clipping or even distortion.

        And using a scope teaches you more about the circuits.
        Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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        • #19
          Well said Axtman. It's not always necessary but I consider it essential (to at least have) for anyone charging at a 'pro' level.
          Anyone I've ever come across that puts energy into arguing against them have either been a joke or a scam.
          Originally posted by Enzo
          I have a sign in my shop that says, "Never think up reasons not to check something."


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          • #20
            The bottom line is a scope in one form or another is so inexpensive that there's no excuse for a pro not to have and use one.

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            • #21
              The least a tech could do is keep an oscilloscope around for a stage prop. You know, have a bunch of equipment with knob /a dials, oscilloscope with wave forms, Jacobs Ladder crackling away, maybe even a theremin playing 50's Sci Fi spooky music!

              The picture below is from Mr. Carlson's Lab. Check out his YouTube videos!

              Click image for larger version

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              • #22
                I'll have to be the one to buck the Conventional Wisdom here regarding shop rates for store farm outs. I do all repairs for a local music store here, and they make nothing on it. I know this because I provide them with my itemized bill that they then forward to their customer. They do it just to be able to say they do repairs as a service to their clientele. But, I know this is not the norm.
                It's weird, because it WAS working fine.....

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                • #23
                  The music stores that I do business with add anywhere from 20 to 40% on the bill.

                  Gotta pay for the lights, no.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Jazz P Bass View Post
                    The music stores that I do business with add anywhere from 20 to 40% on the bill.

                    Gotta pay for the lights, no.
                    40% on the bill.

                    SKIMMERS!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by oc disorder View Post
                      40% on the bill. SKIMMERS!
                      There's worse: one of the stores I do repairs for adds 60%. Then state sales tax on top of the sum. OW! Curiously the latest amp I worked on for them was from a long time direct customer. Why he chose to do it the expensive way is beyond my understanding - and he's a guy who earns his living thru music, it's not like he has money to throw away. Go figure.

                      What bugs me is some techs who add an up charge when they employ their oscilloscope. Or other shops (sleazy chain auto shops like Firestone) that add $3 for a shot of lube spray. If I was a plumber would I add an up charge to use my wrench? Hm, maybe I oughta give up being so customer-friendly, start chiseling them $3 for a shot of Deoxit, $30 for scope work. Might move my income up a couple grand per year.
                      This isn't the future I signed up for.

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                      • #26
                        yeah well, how much do we mark up our parts?
                        Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
                          What bugs me is some techs who add an up charge when they employ their oscilloscope. Or other shops (sleazy chain auto shops like Firestone) that add $3 for a shot of lube spray. If I was a plumber would I add an up charge to use my wrench? Hm, maybe I oughta give up being so customer-friendly, start chiseling them $3 for a shot of Deoxit, $30 for scope work. Might move my income up a couple grand per year.
                          Leo, it's not fair to place the blame on the business owner -- you're not being screwed by some greedy tech, or some greedy auto-shop guy who is looking to nickel and dime out out of an extra 3 bucks. It turns out that these line item charges were created as the result of state sales tax audits.

                          I know a little bit about this -- a friend of mine owns an auto shop and he got audited by the state sales tax people. It turns out that you can thank them for the existence of those itemized "chemical and supplies" charges.

                          It used to be that auto shops never charged for incidental chemicals and supplies. They'd buy chemicals, shop rags, etc. using their tax-exempt certificates to lower their out of pocket cost and then they'd use them in their business without paying sales tax when they bought them, without paying use tax when they consumed them, and without charging sales tax to the customer.

                          A state sales tax auditor who was doing a fine tooth audit of an auto repair shop figured out that they were buying their supplies tax-exempt, and then consuming them in the business without paying use tax on them, and without charging sales tax to the customer. Basically, the State auditor decided that the State was being cheated by the auto shops out of it's sales/use tax. Auditors don't like that.

                          Once the auditor figured out the ruse, the State charged them back taxes and assessed penalties for the non-payment of tax on that year's sales tax return, which ended up being a significant amount of money. Then, once they realized that the process had been going on for years, the auditors examined every one of the business' previous tax returns going back 10 years. So not only did they flog him once, they flogged him 10 times.

                          When the auditors realized that most auto shops operated this way, they created a specialized task force to target auto repair shops for audits. Basically, the audit people realized that there was a lot of easy money to be made in this way, so they started performing 10-year audits of auto shops as a method of picking low-hanging fruit. When the auto shops started getting hammered with unpaid taxes and penalties going back 10 years the word spread through the industry like wildfire.

                          The shops wanted to continue to buy their supplies exempt from sales tax because they wanted to lower the cost of their supplies. The accounting industry decided that if the shops were going to continue to buy their supplies tax-exempt, then they had to create a line item on every bill to account for the disposition of those supplies, and to collect sales/use tax from the customer to satisfy the State.

                          We have the bean counters and the auditors to thank for this. It's not as if the auto shops came up with this idea on their own.
                          "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

                          "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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                          • #28
                            this reminds me of a song:

                            Let me tell you how it will be
                            There's one for you, nineteen for me
                            Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

                            Should five per cent appear too small
                            Be thankful I don't take it all
                            Cos I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

                            If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
                            If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
                            If you get too cold I'll tax the heat
                            If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet

                            Taxman!
                            Cos I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

                            Don't ask me what I want it for (Aahh Mr. Wilson)
                            If you don't want to pay some more (Aahh Mr. Heath)
                            Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

                            Now my advice for those who die
                            Declare the pennies on your eyes
                            Cos I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

                            And you're working for no one but me
                            Taxman!
                            "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

                            "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by bob p View Post
                              Leo, it's not fair to place the blame on the business owner....

                              We have the bean counters and the auditors to thank for this. It's not as if the auto shops came up with this idea on their own.
                              That still doesn't explain why they charge $3 for a shop towel when I can buy a roll of them for $2.

                              -rb
                              DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by rjb View Post
                                That still doesn't explain why they charge $3 for a shop towel when I can buy a roll of them for $2.

                                -rb
                                I guess you could ask them how many they used, tear that off your roll and throw in an extra one as a tip...
                                Experience is something you get, just after you really needed it.

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