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Vintage fender- which one.

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  • #16
    Here we go again...
    When the going gets weird... The weird turn pro!

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    • #17
      Okay, I have a few questions and comments, if you don't mind. I'm not trying to be a smartass here, but there are some basic facts about Fenders to keep in mind as you seek out this "dream amp" & "x factor."

      You mention the Fenders from 68-71. Did you know these are some of the most reviled circuits in Fender's history, according to many players? Now, I've only ever played one Fender from that period with its original circuit UNMODOFIED. I <LOVED> the sound of that amp. But it was supposed to be the "worst Fender ever..."

      Now, each individual amp will be different. Every. Single. One. Ten Deluxe Reverbs (for example) will sound completely different. So - don't chase down a particular model. Play as many amps as possible, find the one you love, and buy THAT ONE. As has been mentioned, they all have very similar circuits.

      What that graph is showing is, Fenders are BASS-HEAVY. Even if your DR clone is too bass-heavy, there are several cheap parts you can change out to cut the amount of bass that makes it to the speaker. That said, every vintage Fender has the same tone cap values, for all intents and purposes. ALL of them, if not modified or having other problems, will do the same thing. Fender Fart is a way of life, from Tweeds to Silverfaces. Mod the amp accordingly, turn the knobs to odd positions, or deal with it.

      Speakers can make or break an amp. Period.

      And, how many "original Fenders" are left, anyway? All that said, I lean towards the Pro Reverb, myself. But to me, it sounds like you want a vintage non-Master Volume Marshall with 4x10"s...

      Justin
      "Wow it's red! That doesn't look like the standard Marshall red. It's more like hooker lipstick/clown nose/poodle pecker red." - Chuck H. -
      "Of course that means playing **LOUD** , best but useless solution to modern sissy snowflake players." - J.M. Fahey -
      "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

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      • #18
        Originally posted by DrGonz78 View Post
        Here we go again...
        oh for goodness sake- a post to do nothing but get attention. PLEASE please just dont bother on this thread gonz. if you think about it its just a waste of your/ others' time if you can't contribute isn't it? thx

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        • #19
          Originally posted by keithb7 View Post
          I showed the pics to qualify my experience with vintage Fender amps. No internet false statements here about what amp works for what. I have been through a few.
          I know.. I was winding you up. You bastard! wonderful amps- you lucky chap.

          So, does my thread make any sense to you Keith? or do you agree with Dave H that there's little point as Im "just selling one DR for another".
          Last edited by Sea Chief; 10-05-2017, 08:34 PM.

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          • #20
            Where's the Bassman head?

            That, and, I want to punch you. I'm jealous. Nice work!

            Justin
            "Wow it's red! That doesn't look like the standard Marshall red. It's more like hooker lipstick/clown nose/poodle pecker red." - Chuck H. -
            "Of course that means playing **LOUD** , best but useless solution to modern sissy snowflake players." - J.M. Fahey -
            "All I ever managed to do with that amp was... kill small rodents within a 50 yard radius of my practice building." - Tone Meister -

            Comment


            • #21
              Posting photos of your gear collection on the internet is just asking for trouble.
              "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

              "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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              • #22
                BF Bassman & Bandmaster I have forgotten. Bassman..I hate the name! (Basshunter.. I hate more tho).

                Keith, I do like to play in the 4-6 zone of a DR as a rough guide/ squelching out d.boon chords if I can.. great fun. But equally as important is a well sustained, complex clean with deep dark reverb.

                I don't play too loud, its not for band use (but some power useful in case of a jam).. as I do use a DIY attenuator to get into the goodies @ 4-6 volume. I know its sacriledge but it just works pretty well.. I dime it @ 8-10 rarely.

                Thanks for your thoughts.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Sea Chief View Post
                  ... my amp sounds nothing -in any way shape or form- like an original 68 deluxe reverb. Nothing remotely close. You know that it doesn't. ...
                  My guess is that if you plugged the speaker/cab of one into the chassis of the other (and set the knobs by ear rather than to a number), the tones would follow the cab.
                  If memory serves, RG Keen has described how frustrating it is that 2 apparently identical combos coming from production can sound somewhat different, and on investigation, the difference seems to be due to the cabs/speakers.
                  My guess is that your DR may have JJ 6V6 / your cab hasn't got a fully open back / it's heavier, deeper and more rigid than an equivalent BF cab / the speakers in it have bigger magnets than in an equivalent BF cab?
                  Note that BF circuits intended for use with a separate speaker cab generally use a 500pF (rather than 1nF) coupling cap between preamp and power amp
                  http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...b763_schem.pdf
                  http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...b763_schem.pdf
                  http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...b763_schem.pdf
                  My band:- http://www.youtube.com/user/RedwingBand

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by pdf64 View Post
                    My guess is that if you plugged the speaker/cab of one into the chassis of the other (and set the knobs by ear rather than to a number), the tones would follow the cab.
                    If memory serves, RG Keen has described how frustrating it is that 2 apparently identical combos coming from production can sound somewhat different, and on investigation, the difference seems to be due to the cabs/speakers.
                    My guess is that your DR may have JJ 6V6 / your cab hasn't got a fully open back / it's heavier, deeper and more rigid than an equivalent BF cab / the speakers in it have bigger magnets than in an equivalent BF cab?
                    Note that BF circuits intended for use with a separate speaker cab generally use a 500pF (rather than 1nF) coupling cap between preamp and power amp
                    http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...b763_schem.pdf
                    http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...b763_schem.pdf
                    http://schems.com/schematicheaven.ne...b763_schem.pdf
                    You know if you were buying a vintage car you'd drive everyone of them before plunking down the cash. Since you want original What options do you have that you can go and kick the tires on? It seems a lot of your complaints on the amps you have could easily be addressed by a good tech.( Bassiness treble, etc.)
                    You've got to know what you want, For me a nasty tweed deluxe with some slide action is the sound I love.

                    nosaj
                    soldering stuff that's broken, breaking stuff that works, Yeah!

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sea Chief View Post
                      keithb7- thats just showing off! you total & utter bastard.
                      No name calling Please! And don't imply that was a joke! It's not funny!
                      "If Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference of the Devil in the House of Commons." Winston Churchill
                      Terry

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by bob p View Post
                        Posting photos of your gear collection on the internet is just asking for trouble.
                        I am not asking for trouble.

                        I grow tired of people shouting out their favourite "advice of the week" on forums. Usually the best amp to own is the one they just bought. Or the one they are lusting over. I have read so many remarks where people tell you what they think you need to hear from an amp. Again, I posted my gear pics to try and gather some credibility about things I say on line. I'm not 15. I have owned several models of vintage amps. I have put time into Les Pauls, Strats, Teles, ES-335 whatever. It makes no difference. I know what those guitars do for me. What they do for you, only your ears can tell you that.

                        Amp sounds and tones are totally subjective. What you might be be looking for in an amp could be totally different than someone else. It's useless to try and tell you what you need. It's best to stick with actual experience and facts. Eliminate emotions, mojo, and other subjective things.

                        In my experience, if the vintage Fender amp has reverb and vibrato, when clean to me they all have the same basic tone structure. That clean infamous Fender sound. Turning them up, things get different. Different tubes, speakers, cab size, output power, and more affect the tones of these amps. The same could be said about most all Fender 50's tweed amps. They dirty up quite similarly in my opinion. The volume level when the amp breaks up is a big differentiator. The speaker configurations. The cab dimensions. Closed and open back. The size of the transformers. The type and quantity of power tubes. These are major components that effect the amp's tone.

                        I would not sell a SFDR and buy another SFDR hoping it'll be quite different. I would probably tend to experiment with the SFDR and find the tones I want. Make sure it's healthy, and bias set properly. A good tune up may be in order. Speaker swaps help a lot as mentioned. Tube amps are analog. Each component can swing above or below build specs by quite a bit. Especially as they age. I would expect that rarely two same model amps will sound identical, but should really sound quite similar. Sea, if your 68 DR sounds nothing like a 68 DR should, something is wrong with it.

                        I'm not sure what the "X-factor" is that was referenced. Personally I don't find vintage Fender amps bass-y. However as you can see, Vox or Marshall, or any other manufacturer are not really on my radar. I have limited experience with other vintage amp brands to compare.

                        I agree that knob setting numbers mean very little. I set up an amp based on what I hear. The dial numbers mean little when I'm comparing amps. At one time I owned a 1966 Deluxe Reverb. It sounded awesome. Then I picked up a 1971 Vibrolux Reverb. I was torn which was better to keep. The BF DR was such a coveted amp. It was original. The 71 VR was rated much lower by Joe Public. I closed my eyes and listened. The two sounded very similar in many ways. In the end the '71 VR is still in my collection and used regularly. The 1966 DR was sold and the funds were used to get something totally different sounding than the VR.

                        Sea Chief I won't advise you what amp is best for you. I recommend you don't stop at one amp. Try many. As many as you can. Picking one model to buy today is not necessarily a mistake. Buy whatever you can at the right price. Test it. If you decide to sell it, you should do ok.

                        In my opinion, a Brown PR or DR is a very tonally different amp compared to a SF/SF Reverb/Vibr type Fender amp. It appears you have some work to do to settle in on the tones and features you want from an amp.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by big_teee View Post
                          No name calling Please! And don't imply that was a joke! It's not funny!
                          hahaha!! good to read this 1st thing AM.. hilarious!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Keith, thanks for the info there. Nothing wrong with my DR as Ive said countless times & I will not say again. The bass issue I have seems -unfathomably- to be only me that gets this, if I see the same trait in amp after amp. My DR has been tone tested "excellent sounding DR" by one of the best amp builders in Europe. Ive said this 3 times now. From then to now it is --exactly-- unchanged. It is in perfect working order. I wouldn't be selling it if I had -any- inclination it wasn't healthy. But that doesn't in any way shape or form on this earth mean it can compete even in the same race with an original 68 DR. A repro is an approximation, with entirely different mfr components of vastly different age, as is an RI. How could they compare?

                            When you refer to the 66 DR vs the V'Lux reverb..interesting.. now THATS what I'm after/ need info on.

                            Ok then let me ask my Q's another way: can anyone else give their opinions then, on their favourite vintage fender. Why. What are the best years to look for. What are the best bang for buck vintage amps. What to look out for/ things to bear in mind. Etc. All contenders have been mentioned.

                            I need help in choosing a vintage fender- can you help with your opinions please? (not on the amp Im selling!). Cheers SC

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by nosaj View Post
                              You know if you were buying a vintage car you'd drive everyone of them before plunking down the cash. Since you want original What options do you have that you can go and kick the tires on? It seems a lot of your complaints on the amps you have could easily be addressed by a good tech.( Bassiness treble, etc.)
                              You've got to know what you want, For me a nasty tweed deluxe with some slide action is the sound I love.

                              nosaj
                              Very good point. But the reason I ask in depth as to opinions is because there are no 'garage forecourts' of fender vintage amps (so the car analogy doesn't work).. I'm way out in the sticks, west wales, & there will likely be NO opportunity to even try the amp I buy. "Well I wouldn't buy it then".. understood, but then I can't buy a vintage fender. Thankfully with Youtube, at least I could conceivably ask the seller to let me hear it. Within 15 secs I know whether its a vintage fender with the X-factor, as I'd expect say a 68 DR to have, or just 'a guitar amp' (which doesn't interest me spending even £50, let alone £1k) whereby my DR or an RI would be just as good (bad relative to a real, vintage fender).

                              Im trying to gather max info.. do extra-searching as to what I want/ need/ which is the best avenue, which are the best deals, what is the value/ price I should expect. Etc.

                              So far Keith's comparing of a 68 DR & a 71 V'lux R chimes with me the most. But I need more info chaps please, if you would.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                A couple of the best values in vintage Fender amps are the Bandmaster series. From BF through to SF. They are a decent amp. Well built. They sell for pretty low prices. A Bassman head is another. They sell pretty low compared to Reverb equipped amps. The SF Bassman head is often a good buy. Look for Drip edge models. Even better, drip edge models with the thin black vertical lines that are on the face plate. These are the early SF models, and are often BF circuits inside.

                                Right now, at least over here in North American the Princeton Reverb, Deluxe Reverb are all the rage. Demanding high prices. From 64 to about 1978. Everybody wants want small, portable, light reverb/trem equipped vintage Fenders. I'd stay away if what I really wanted to great tone at a decent price. The bigger the amps the cheaper they are. I have purchased SF Twin Reverb amps for really great low, low prices. The Twin R up to 1974 would be a great buy. Ignore the master volume, leave it on 10. They sound excellent. Amazing value for the current prices. The Super Reverb is another example. Prices continue to fall. My 1971 Reverb sounded awesome.

                                Sea Chief I am not sure where you are located. I can give you some examples in Canadian dollars. You covert if you like. However, then there's shipping to deal with.
                                Locally I bought a 1973 Twin Reverb in very good condition for $300 Canadian. No freight.
                                I bought a 1971 Super Reverb for $600 Canadian, locally. No freight.
                                I bought my 1971 Vibrolux Reverb for $400 Canadian. Locally. No freight.
                                I bought a 1977 UL Twin Reverb for $300 Canadian. Locally. No freight.

                                Nobody wanted the big ones it seems. I am again, not trying to brag here. But provide examples. Prices for big SF amps are in the tank. These deals did not come easy. I worked hard to find them and it took quite some time to round them up.

                                My 1964 Bandmaster came from North Virginia USA. These are also great deal amps as mentioned. I payed more as it is a BF model.

                                I service my own amps and often buy them sick or broken. I get help on this forum in the amp repair section. It is my belief that if you are not well versed in vintage amps, what to look for, how authenticate them, how to fix them, you should probably
                                stay out of the market. Expect to be taken for a ride by a seller who thinks his rat nest, dog pissed on broken Princeton Reverb is worth a fortune, because he saw asking prices on Reverb.com

                                I always have to service the amps I buy, as they are usually original. I am a player. It may look like I collect vintage amps, but I play them all. I gig them all. They are not pristine amps that sit untouched. I play them often. So if I have to replace a transformer I don't care. I do it myself and play the amp.

                                Personally, I think it is hard to go wrong with a SF Vibrolux Reverb. To my ears it's got that Fender tone. It sounds amazing. The circuit remained virtually unchanged through the 1970's. There are no bad SF years to avoid in my opinion. Awesome reverb. Not too heavy. Loud enough for a band. I'd avoid paying high prices for a BF model. The SF gets the job done just fine.
                                Last edited by keithb7; 10-06-2017, 02:23 PM.

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