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Thread: Self-Driving Cars Can't See Black

  1. #106
    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Tin foil indeed! Current and future generations are being "programmed" (not focused ) to be autonomous, expendable pieces of the whole. Consider other cultures that already exhibit this trait and you'll see where America is going. So the people failing to create SDC's that work with our existing infrastructure can rest easy. Having millennials behind the wheel is the next best thing There will be fleets of little gray smart cars and parking kiosks where they are picked up and dropped off. Like bicycles in Denmark. You just go get a "car" (or maybe we'll spell it "kar" because, you know, cool!). You drive it to the kiosk nearest your destination and walk or take public transit from there. Perhaps these kar's will be autopilot for freeway use. You pull onto the ramp and the kar goes into this mode while Mr. Millen, the driver, works on the draft he's presenting in 45 minutes. Then at the exit ramp he just takes control and drives the short distance to drop off the kar and walks to the nearby Happy Bagel for breakfast on his way to the job. It's a good job, but it has a lousy insurance plan. When you get sick they just grind you up and make you into those little biscuits they serve in the cafeteria.

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  2. #107
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    You old fart.

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  3. #108
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Now this is interesting -- GM is reportedly going to re-invent itself as a manufacturer of cars for it's own ride sharing company.

    GM Plans to Launch AirBNB for Your Car

    Maybe GM realizes that their cars are becoming so expensive that in the future most people won't be able to afford anything more than a time-share.

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  4. #109
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    Now this is interesting -- GM is reportedly going to re-invent itself as a manufacturer of cars for it's own ride sharing company.

    GM Plans to Launch AirBNB for Your Car

    Maybe GM realizes that their cars are becoming so expensive that in the future most people won't be able to afford anything more than a time-share.
    With new cars losing ~25% of their value the minute you drive away from the dealer I have always bought used cars. Perhaps Detroit needs to build used cars to increase their sales!

    I bought a 1988 MBZ 300E for $3000 in January 2014 which now has 200k miles on it. I've been fortunate in having repairs done by a friend and the local junior college so I've only had to put about $2000 in it for repairs including new tires and suspension. So excluding gas, insurance and registration that works out to $100/month. And whenever the car reachs the point where it is not cost-effective to repair I can turn it in for $1500 in the Cash for Cars program in California to get old jumpers off the road. It only gets about 18 mpg but I don't drive that far so it isn't a problem for me. Smoothest ride I've ever had!

    Steve A.

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    Old Timer J M Fahey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    You old fart.

    Hey, at least that way old farts are good for *something*

    Wonder what flavour do they add, though.

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    Juan Manuel Fahey

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    That reminds me. Around here we get "Girl Scout Cookies" every year. The Girl Scouts sell the cookies to raise funds. I like the Samoas, and the Thin Mints. Here at the home, various residents send their granddaughter scouts around to try to sell them.

    Samoas:
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    So recently a young girl in her uniform came to my door and asked if I would like to buy some Girl Scout Cookies. I said certainly I would. She asked me what flavor, and I said "Oh, I thought that WAS the flavor."

    And then the trouble started...

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  7. #112
    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    I like the Do Si Do's (like Nutter Butters, except gooder). I eat them by the sleeve like a brush chipper.

    Don't worry about the faux pas Enzo. I made the same mistake once with Baby Oil.

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    Old Timer nosaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eschertron View Post
    Since this thread's taken us deep in the weeds off the side of the road
    I sometimes stop by the freezer section of the local supermarket just to spy the tubs of chitterlings. Nobody's ever heard of chitterlings, but many folks would recognize 'chitlins' by name, if not by sight.
    Or smell if someone's cooking them, they smell like A$$.

    nosaj

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  9. #114
    Old Timer nosaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    That reminds me. Around here we get "Girl Scout Cookies" every year. The Girl Scouts sell the cookies to raise funds. I like the Samoas, and the Thin Mints. Here at the home, various residents send their granddaughter scouts around to try to sell them.

    Samoas:
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    So recently a young girl in her uniform came to my door and asked if I would like to buy some Girl Scout Cookies. I said certainly I would. She asked me what flavor, and I said "Oh, I thought that WAS the flavor."

    And then the trouble started...
    In California a few weeks back this one girl scout had a banner year, she setup outside a Marijuana Dispenser shop. That was real smart on her half.

    nosaj

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  10. #115
    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosaj View Post
    In California a few weeks back this one girl scout had a banner year, she setup outside a Marijuana Dispenser shop. That was real smart on her half.

    nosaj
    That was mom or dad's idea. I'm sure the lesson was learned. We only wish our kids didn't pick up on such things, but they do.

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    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

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    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "A shot gun delivers a force that exceeds the operational range of most systems, such as pumpkins." Antigua

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    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    Well, since the thread is already black and can't see where it's going: My favorite is the Girl Scout Peanut Squares. It's an addiction.

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  12. #117
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    "Oh, I thought that WAS the flavor."

    And then the trouble started...
    Oh, don't play coy, Enzo -- you know that real Girl Scouts aren't as chewy as a Samoa.

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  13. #118
    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    And a Brownie for dessert.


    I was a DoSiDo man for many years, but I moved over to Samoas a decade or so.

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  14. #119
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    > And a Brownie for dessert.

    You are evil. Pure evil.

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nosaj View Post
    Or smell if someone's cooking them, they smell like A$$.
    Jason, chitterlings cost 50-cents per pound. They are entrails. Of course they smell like A$$ -- they *ARE* A$$.

    Are you expecting them to smell like perfume?

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    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Actually, ahem...

    Chitterlings (chitlins) are the small intestine. First off the stomach. These are followed by the large intestine which includes the anus and therefor qualify as a$$. It's probable that chitterlings smell "close to" a$$ because they ARE close to a$$. But not exactly a$$.

    That's the most dollar signs I've ever had cause to put in a post

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    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

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    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "A shot gun delivers a force that exceeds the operational range of most systems, such as pumpkins." Antigua

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    So they are, in a way, interior taint?


    I like variety meat. I think liver is the best thing in an animal. I raised rabbits for years and enjoyed rabbit liver. I don't care for tongue, but I do enjoy sweetbreads. Brain has a similar taste to sweetbreads, but a softer texture, less pleasing to me.

    One day while shopping, I spotted kidneys in the meat case. I had never had kidney, though I had heard of kidney pie. SO I asked the butcher, "How do you cook kidney?" I do believe he had been waiting for years for someone to ask him that, when he said, "You boil the piss out of it."

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  18. #123
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    I saw that one coming. But then I ordered the veal.

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  19. #124
    Bent Member Chuck H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enzo View Post
    So they are, in a way, interior taint?
    Beauty comes from inside

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    "...less ear-friendly but handy for jazz." Leo_Gnardo

    "A pedal, any kind, will not make a Guitar player more dangerous than he already is." J M Fahey

    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

    "A shot gun delivers a force that exceeds the operational range of most systems, such as pumpkins." Antigua

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    Lifetime Member Enzo's Avatar
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    Beauty is in the hole of the behinder.

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  21. #126
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Uber Autonomous Car Involve din Fatal Crash

    Well, maybe the idea that self-driving cars would take out pedestrians wasn't that far-fetched:

    As reported by Bloomberg Technology, March 19, 2018, 12:21 PM CDT:

    Uber Autonomous Car Kills Pedestrian

    A self-driving car from Uber Technologies Inc. hit and killed a woman in Tempe, Arizona, on Sunday evening, what is likely the first pedestrian fatality involving a driverless vehicle. In response, Uber quickly halted its self-driving cars as the incident is investigated.

    The woman was crossing the road when the Uber vehicle, operating in autonomous mode, struck her, according to the Tempe Police Department. She was transferred to a local hospital where she died from her injuries. "Uber is assisting and this is still an active investigation," Liliana Duran, a spokeswoman from the Tempe police, said in an emailed statement.

    Uber said on Monday that it was pausing tests of all its autonomous vehicles in Pittsburgh, San Francisco, Toronto and the greater Phoenix area. “Our hearts go out to the victim’s family," a company spokeswoman said in a statement. "We are fully cooperating with local authorities in their investigation of this incident."

    Some incredibly sad news out of Arizona. We’re thinking of the victim’s family as we work with local law enforcement to understand what happened.

    "We’re within the phase of autonomous vehicles where we’re still learning how good they are. Whenever you release a new technology there’s a whole bunch of unanticipated situations," said Arun Sundararajan, a professor at New York University’s business school. "Despite the fact that humans are also prone to error, we have as a society many decades of understanding of those errors."

    Drivers relying on Tesla Inc.’s Autopilot technology have been involved in fatal car crashes. Uber has had minor incidents in the past. A self-driving Uber car ran a red light in San Francisco while the company operated in the city without regulatory approval. The California Department of Motor Vehicles eventually forced Uber to pull the cars from the road.

    The National Transportation Safety Board is opening an investigation into the death and is sending a small team of investigators to Tempe, spokesman Eric Weiss said.

    The NTSB opens relatively few highway accident investigations each year, but has been closely following incidents involving autonomous or partially autonomous vehicles. Last year, it partially faulted Tesla Autopilot system for a fatal crash in Florida in 2016.
    I don't want these vehicles on public streets as they "learn" how to avoid killing pedestrians.

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  22. #127
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    a 16 year old human is required to have a licensed driver with them when they're driving, as they learn to avoid making mistakes. it only makes sense that driverless should be required to have a human supervisor in the car paying attention to override mistakes that are made by the cars.

    what amazes me is that the Uber car *did* have a human "safety driver" in the car supervising it's operation. so why did it run over and kill a pedestrian? because the human "safety driver" in the car wasn't paying attention. the "safety driver" did what humans can be expected to do -- he stopped paying attention and let the car function on autopilot, even though that person was still responsible for the operation of the vehicle.

    now i have to wonder if the "safety driver" in the car is going to be charged with vehicular manslaughter for allowing the car that they were operating to kill a pedestrian. that person had the obligation to stop the car before it creamed the pedestrian, but it appears that he did not intervene to stop the accident.

    why is it that it takes the death of an innocent person to get people to re-think this whole autonomous car paradigm?

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  23. #128
    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Particularly chilling is the quote "we’re still learning how good they are". Shouldn't this learning take place on an isolated bomb range rather than in a crowded city?

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  24. #129
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    I think the idea of deploying SDC on streets that are occupied by human pedestrians amounts to gross negligence -- both on the part of the companies that deploy them AND on the part of legislators that allowed them to be on the roadways.

    The Tesla event where it became evident that a Tesla couldn't recognize something as large as a semi-trailer, and killed it's occupant by driving right into it, should have been a wake up call that SDC aren't to be trusted. The visual recognition interface is just poor and it's not trustworthy enough for lives to depend on it. So far, we've had a situation where people who get into the cars accept the risk of getting into the cars, knowing that they are experimental. But today's pedestrian killing changes everything. Now people like me and Chuck, who would never get into an SDC, are at risk of being killed by an SDC just because we might be walking down the street. These things need to be taken off of the public roadways. Now.

    Some plaintiffs' lawyer is going to make huge money on this case. He's going to be able to prove that the visual recognition systems aren't as good as they're cracked up to be, and that they've killed people, and in spite of knowing that this has happened, the SDC people continued to deploy SDC. If an SDC can't recognize something as big as a semi-trailer, why is there any reason to think that it's going to recognize something smaller, like a pedestrian?

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  25. #130
    don't forget the joker g1's Avatar
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    I guess if we teach them to be as good as real drivers, we'll only have to put up with (on average) about 1 pedestrian death every 2 hours.
    Who's with me on outlawing all human driven vehicles?
    I didn't think so.

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  26. #131
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Teaching them to be as good as human drivers is a moot point. All of the SDC pimps have promised from the beginning that their SDC were going to be safer than human drivers, so holding them to the same standards as humans serves no point. They have to exceed human safety or there's no point spending zillions of dollars developing them -- and placing the public at risk. Their products have to be safer than human drivers, not as good as human drivers, to meet their sales pitch. If they can't exceed human operator safety then there's no point in developing them.

    I don't claim to be a perfect driver, and I've had accidents in the past, so I don't claim to be perfect. But the good news is that I've driven over 600,000 miles and I've never killed anyone. I've never driven into the side of a semi-trailer and I've never run over a pedestrian trying to cross the street. Compare my kill rate per mile driven to the kill rate of the SDC and all of a sudden human error starts looking pretty good.

    I wouldn't call for the elimination of human driven vehicles, but I'm all for outlawing machines that kill innocent people. Who's with me on that?!?

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    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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  28. #133
    "Thermionic Apocalypse" -JT nickb's Avatar
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    I want to know what the 'safety driver' was up to.

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  29. #134
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Texting? Or just surfing for porn? Or just sleeping on the job?

    You've got to think that sitting in the driver's seat of an SDC has got to be a pretty boring job. It'd be tough to stay vigilant when you're not actually engaged in operating the vehicle.

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    Last edited by bob p; 03-20-2018 at 12:02 AM.
    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

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  30. #135
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Interestingly the news stories are getting more detailed now that the news outlets have had time to cover the story. That original link that I provided was only a few minutes old when I posted it.

    It's interesting that the story in El Duderino's link shows that the SDC testing is being conducted in AZ because AZ state administration solicited the SDC companies to do their testing there.

    Killing a pedestrian comes at a very bad time for Uber. Uber was lobbying as late as Friday for new laws to be passed to streamline the regulatory hurdles to developing their SDC. I think this is going to hurt them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    Interestingly the news stories are getting more detailed now that the news outlets have had time to cover the story. That original link that I provided was only a few minutes old when I posted it.

    It's interesting that the story in El Duderino's link shows that the SDC testing is being conducted in AZ because AZ state administration solicited the SDC companies to do their testing there.

    Killing a pedestrian comes at a very bad time for Uber. Uber was lobbying as late as Friday for new laws to be passed to streamline the regulatory hurdles to developing their SDC. I think this is going to hurt them.

    Ohhh OOO Boy, scary. I have to read up where they are doing any SDC research, pilots and stay the hell away. Those 'artificial intelligence' algorithms are nothing more than big, complex curve fitting, as much as the PhD's try to tell is its something new and amazing.

    Remember a few years back, ok more than a few years, decades, but remember there was this C program, that took down this huge swath of the telephone system down the east coast due to an extra semicolon? Well, that programmers grandkids are writing the same damn software to self drive cars now.

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  32. #137
    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nickb View Post
    I want to know what the 'safety driver' was up to.
    Yep. I also wonder if the "safety driver" in these sorts of things will have any legal liability. Let's, for example, say he was under the influence (speaking only theoretically). Could he be charged with DUI or operating a motor vehicle under the influence? Do texting laws apply to him? I'll be curious to see how that part of the equation susses out.

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  33. #138
    don't forget the joker g1's Avatar
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    Achieving better safety than humans is setting a very low bar.
    On the other hand, saying that for automated cars "any less than 100% safety is unacceptable" is ridiculous and that always seems like what people expect.
    My point is all the people freaking out about a single pedestrian killed when they don't seem to give a flying f*** about the guy cruising around watching his entertainment system while he's texting with one hand and trying to light his crack pipe with the other.
    Where have you ever seen people protesting onboard entertainment systems or driving aids that pretty much enable incompetent drivers? We've gotten so far from driving competence or ability that it's better to go all the way than try and go back.
    If the argument comes down to safety, like I said, the bar is very low and I can't see how the machines will not prevail.

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    Supporting Member The Dude's Avatar
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    Unless I missed it, the article doesn't say if the pedestrian/bicyclist was crossing legally either. Not to say that a "smart car" shouldn't be able to detect something in it's path, and maybe not the case here, but if you're going to walk or ride out into traffic............

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  35. #140
    Old Timer nosaj's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Dude View Post
    Unless I missed it, the article doesn't say if the pedestrian/bicyclist was crossing legally either. Not to say that a "smart car" shouldn't be able to detect something in it's path, and maybe not the case here, but if you're going to walk or ride out into traffic............
    It's a smart car as far as the robots are concerned.

    Robots=1 Humans=0


    nosaj

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