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Thread: LP Jr knock off?

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    LP Jr knock off?

    I need another guitar like more holes in my head. But I owned several real 59 and 60 LP Jrs and Specials back in the day. I particularly miss one that was stolen... But I don't want to spend $5k for a beater and the reissues I've seen were both pricy and unimpressive. I saw this neck/body kit for cheap. Given my recent success assembling a 60s SG clone from Chinese parts I was thinking about pulling the trigger on this one. I know it's a crap shoot. Any opinions? Anyone heard of Eden?

    https://reverb.com/item/6337706-eden...y-and-body-kit

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    They say both body and neck are sealed with a light coat of polyurethane.

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    No experience, but it looks like a great DIY project. I noticed that you can upgrade to block inlays for $3.

    https://reverb.com/item/6337698-eden...y-and-body-kit

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    Their website doesn't look too bad. The body is described as 'unfinished' if that's more desirable.

    edenguitars

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    I'd jump on this if I could get more information about neck thickness -- specifically if I could confirm that they offer a thick neck option.

    The problem that I have with shopping for guitars/parts sight-unseen is that I need a thick neck, but nobody selling budget gear bothers to tell you much about neck thickness. I can't stand the thin necks that are so common on inexpensive guitars, and if a seller doesn't specifically state that the neck is a fat one, then I have to assume that every inexpensive guitar will have a neck that's so thin that I can't play it.

    IMO these companies could increase their sales by giving better specs. They need to understand that all of the neck specs matter. Most of them don't specify neck profile or thickness, or even radius. In many cases you're lucky to be told the nut width. Aargh.

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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    Supporting Member eschertron's Avatar
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    IMO these companies could increase their sales by giving better specs. They need to understand that all of the neck specs matter. Most of them don't specify neck profile or thickness, or even radius. In many cases you're lucky to be told the nut width. Aargh.
    Contact them. They look like a fairly young (read: responsive) company from the website blurb. I'd be curious too, BTW.

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    If it still won't get loud enough, it's probably broken. - Steve Conner
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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    I actually prefer a '60s slim neck. I really like a slim soft V but they are very rare. It won't break the bank either way. I'd be more concerned with the fretwork. They give some specs. The "unknown origin" probably just means China. Lol. The last $50 Chibson neck I got was as good or better than most Gibsons.

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    So after much deliberation I bought one of these. It arrived in one day. It's everything they said it is. 2 piece mahogany body. Rosewood fretboard. Nice frets. Well made. Not old growth Honduran Mahogany of course but it should work. Seems to be a fairly exact replica except for the modern frets. The only drag is they didn't rout the lip of the back control cavity for the cover. That's going to be a pain. But for $150... lol. I'm going to take my time. I have most of the rest of it laying around. I'm trying to copy this one that was stolen from me decades ago. Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by olddawg; 03-08-2018 at 09:03 PM.

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    I probably won't get as carried away because my original had a bad refinish. I want it functional and looking good from 5 ft away, lol. But... I saw another luthier near me who is building replicas of vintage LP Customs starting with kits like these and selling them in the LA market. He uses premium replica hardware and electronics and pays great attention to detail in fit and finish with mild relicing. He gets thousands for them and you can't tell they aren't real without some real knowledge.

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    ALSO... for anybody that's interested. The pickup rout is done so it will take a P90, a mini, or a full sized humbucker. Here's pictures of a Dog Ear cover over the hole and a DM Super D in it. Click image for larger version. 

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    http://youtu.be/K5MeoaiTRvM
    Here is another guy’s take. Wish I could find his other videos if he has some.
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    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olddawg View Post
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ID:	47471 ... The only drag is they didn't rout the lip of the back control cavity for the cover. That's going to be a pain. But for $150... lol. I'm going to take my time. I have most of the rest of it laying around. I'm trying to copy this one that was stolen from me decades ago. Click image for larger version. 

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    So is the control compartment cover the same size as the cavity? I.e., will it fall inside the opening? If so I would add a few pieces of wood to hold the cover and secure it.
    If not i would have a local plastic fabricator make me one the exact size of the opening and put the tiny blocks of wood in as described above.
    I would NOT pay someone to rout out a lip or attempt it myself.

    Steve A.

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    The problem with DIY projects like these is that they need to stay DIY or you end up blowing your budget. If that happens you could end up sinking more into the project than if you bought a completed guitar.

    I'd avoid hiring out any of the work. Me? I'd find a cover that I like and then expand the control cavity as needed and then rout out the lip. Rather than trying to freehand the router work, I'd build a jig and practice on a piece of scrap to avoid screwing up the guitar body. This kind of router task is actually pretty easy if you build a jig. Once you've practiced enough to have the routing down pat then move the jig to the guitar.

    For those of us who are thinking about taking on one of these kits, it would be very interesting to know how many hours of work and how many dollars in parts go into the project. dawg, do you have to buy all of the parts for this project or do you have some parts sitting around that you're planning to use?

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    The problem with DIY projects like these is that they need to stay DIY or you end up blowing your budget. If that happens you could end up sinking more into the project than if you bought a completed guitar.

    I'd avoid hiring out any of the work. Me? I'd find a cover that I like and then expand the control cavity as needed and then rout out the lip. Rather than trying to freehand the router work, I'd build a jig and practice on a piece of scrap to avoid screwing up the guitar body. This kind of router task is actually pretty easy if you build a jig. Once you've practiced enough to have the routing down pat then move the jig to the guitar.

    For those of us who are thinking about taking on one of these kits, it would be very interesting to know how many hours of work and how many dollars in parts go into the project. dawg, do you have to buy all of the parts for this project or do you have some parts sitting around that you're planning to use?

    A lot of people do these things as “winter projects”. I’m in San Diego, lol. I’m doing this because I recently put a Chibson neck on an Epiphone G400 body with a shattered neck I was given. (See my earlier post) The whole project cost me around a $100 because I had all of the Epi parts... and people keep asking me about my “Vintage” SG in the clubs. I learned a lot on that one. It’s my go to standard tuning slide guitar and looks and sounds great. I do have a lot of parts laying around and picked up some inexpensive stuff from Allparts, Stewmack, and Amazon for this one. I have a cabinet maker friend that will rout the cavity lip for me. But yeah.... I’ll have around $300 into it when I’m done plus time. It’s a hobby of sort. I’m still recovering from my heart attack. It gives me something to think about and look forward too. There is also a certain satisfaction in playing instruments you made yourself at a gig. When someone walks up and says nice 59 DC and I say I made it... it’s a plus. The most expensive thing other than the initial kit will be the pick guard if I have one made and don’t make one myself. If it doesn’t turn out to be a player I’ll hang it on the wall or sell it. No fortune spent. It’s like the amps I build. Irresistible crimes of opportunity. Lol. I’m an old guy with a bunch of skills, tools, and time. I’m retired. I play gigs on weekends and I piddle with stuff. The gigs pay cash and I probably buy more "stuff" than I should. I am threatening to scale down.

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    So... the $12 Bad Ass clone arrived over night from Amazon Prime. I have a real old Leo Quan if I want to use it later. Should have a $16 set of 15:1 Kluson clone (better than the original) tuners coming this week. They even say "Deluxe" on them. Also a $6 chrome jack plate, a pair of CTS pots, and a brand new Switchcraft jack. And a clone Gibson truss rod cover. If I rub the tuner buttons with brown shoe polish they will look old. I have a decent P90 laying around. As you can see I have to dress the neck pocket a bit. When it's all together.... how serious I get with the finish depends on how much I like it after it's assembled, strung up, and played for a week. Thennit gets a bone nut. A restoration quality clone Gibson waterslide logo is $15 from eBay. But I've been impressed with these necks. AND all of the holes are for American spec hardware. The Epiphone was all metric.Click image for larger version. 

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    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob p View Post
    The problem with DIY projects like these is that they need to stay DIY or you end up blowing your budget. If that happens you could end up sinking more into the project than if you bought a completed guitar.

    I'd avoid hiring out any of the work. Me? I'd find a cover that I like and then expand the control cavity as needed and then rout out the lip. Rather than trying to freehand the router work, I'd build a jig and practice on a piece of scrap to avoid screwing up the guitar body. This kind of router task is actually pretty easy if you build a jig. Once you've practiced enough to have the routing down pat then move the jig to the guitar.

    For those of us who are thinking about taking on one of these kits, it would be very interesting to know how many hours of work and how many dollars in parts go into the project. dawg, do you have to buy all of the parts for this project or do you have some parts sitting around that you're planning to use?
    Olddawg did say" both body and neck are sealed with a light coat of polyurethane" which is why I did not recommend routing the top unless he was planning to refinish it. A friend bought an Epi White Lightning guitar which was missing switch cover plate. The problem was that the lip wasn't cut right... nowhere to put 2 of the screws. A top nptch guitar builder friend made a repair along the lines of what I suggested.

    As for routers I bought a Craftsman Laminate Router many years ago which is great for working on guitars being much bigger than a dremel and much smaller than a full-sized shop router...

    Steve A.

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    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olddawg View Post
    So... the $12 Bad Ass clone arrived over night from Amazon Prime.
    Can you post or PM me the listing or seller's name? Does he sell metric as well as SAE bad ass clones?

    Thanks!

    Steve A.

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  18. #18
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    I'd save $15 on the Gibson decal.

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Done

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    I'm a little disappointed with the Allparts $16 tuners. Although they seem to be decent, tight 15:1 ratio tuners and are similar reproductions, they do not say "Deluxe" on them. I am also going to have to dowel and redrill the peg holes in the headstock. I suspect the holes were drilled for "Grover" clones in a more complete kit. Oh well. Not a huge deal. I can always swap out real Klusons later. Click image for larger version. 

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    Are those tuners Gotoh, or the cheaper Korean ones? The Gotohs aren't marked apart from 'Japan' on the back. Stewmac sells 'conversion' bushings that go from the 10mm sealed tuner holes down to the Kluson-style post size. They're about $8 a set and would save you having to redrill. Allparts might have similar but I'm not sure.

    Andy

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  22. #22
    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Thanks Andy.. these are generic "Asian" but are American scale. (Drop in Kluson clones) The Gotohs are more than twice the price. They center in the holes fine. I don't think the conversion bushings would work because these are Grover single size holes. Allparts did have some conversion bushings. I'll look. But honestly, rather than paying and waiting for shipping it's not a big deal to plug it with some dowel and redrill it with my drill press. The dowel will not be seen under the lip anyway. If I really wanted to kludge it I could use some 5 minute epoxy. But I'll do it right.

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    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olddawg View Post
    Thanks Andy.. these are generic "Asian" but are American scale. (Drop in Kluson clones) The Gotohs are more than twice the price. They center in the holes fine. I don't think the conversion bushings would work because these are Grover single size holes. Allparts did have some conversion bushings. I'll look. But honestly, rather than paying and waiting for shipping it's not a big deal to plug it with some dowel and redrill it with my drill press. The dowel will not be seen under the lip anyway. If I really wanted to kludge it I could use some 5 minute epoxy. But I'll do it right.
    I don't know what the shipping would be but I have a lot of different asian tuners that I could mail to you N/C if you send me the specs. Adding dowels and drilling might conceivably affect resonance of headstock so I would not do it unless absolutely necessary. Whenever you decide to put in some real Klusons you could mail the Asian ones back to me if I needed them back...

    Steve A.

    P.S. I am planning to go into business as a guitar tech someday so I have been stocking up on cheap Asian parts for cheap-ass customers...

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve A. View Post
    I don't know what the shipping would be but I have a lot of different asian tuners that I could mail to you N/C if you send me the specs. Adding dowels and drilling might conceivably affect resonance of headstock so I would not do it unless absolutely necessary. Whenever you decide to put in some real Klusons you could mail the Asian ones back to me if I needed them back...

    Steve A.

    P.S. I am planning to go into business as a guitar tech someday so I have been stocking up on cheap Asian parts for cheap-ass customers...
    You were right Steve. I found some adapters on Amazon Prime. I should have them in a day!
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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    I actually ended up using real Kluson bushing adapters because they were the same dimensions and only $2 more with free shipping on Amazon Prime. They are still a tiny bit loose so I wrapped a turn of painters tape around them. I think it will tighten up when the headstock has a few coats of paint.
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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Thereís a lot more to doing this right than it appeared. Iím going to have to make the tendon rout longer and am going to have to set the neck a 1/4Ē or so into the body because of the way they rounded the edges. Also to look period correct Iím going to have to stagger the bridge post holes a bit. This shouldnít be too difficult. The existing holes are 3/8Ē. The stud bushings require a 7/16Ē hole. To drill them accurately Iím going to have to dowel them first anyway. Iíll make better measurements once I have the neck set but setting the top stud back a bit shouldnít be a problem.Click image for larger version. 

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    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olddawg View Post
    I actually ended up using real Kluson bushing adapters because they were the same dimensions and only $2 more with free shipping on Amazon Prime. They are still a tiny bit loose so I wrapped a turn of painters tape around them. I think it will tighten up when the headstock has a few coats of paint.
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  28. #28
    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by olddawg View Post
    There’s a lot more to doing this right than it appeared. I’m going to have to make the tendon rout longer and am going to have to set the neck a 1/4” or so into the body because of the way they rounded the edges. Also to look period correct I’m going to have to stagger the bridge post holes a bit. This shouldn’t be too difficult. The existing holes are 3/8”. The stud bushings require a 7/16” hole. To drill them accurately I’m going to have to dowel them first anyway. I’ll make better measurements once I have the neck set but setting the top stud back a bit shouldn’t be a problem.
    That's the problem with "project" guitar builds. They always end up taking a lot more to get them "right" than you;d hoped going in.

    I'm sure that you're aware that by setting the neck farther into the body that's going to force you to move your bridge, but it sounds like you're ready for this since you're going to be doweling the existing holes.

    I've thought about one of these kits, and the biggest impediment for me has been the skinny neck contour. Another thing that's given me pause is the narrow price gap between the kit price and the prevailing prices for some of the well-built Asian guitars when they go on sale. These kits seem like a great deal, but once you figure in all of your work they end up being expensive time-wise. I think I'd be more likely to bite if the kits were cheaper. To me there's just not enough gap between the $150 raw parts and the finished $300 Asian guitars to make it work for me.

    Of course, I say this just as I'm going into a parts-caster project that's guaranteed to have me upside-down on value when the smoke clears. Hopefully the difference is that the parts-caster will involve less time than money, which is kind of where I'm at right now.

    I think you've got a great project. I'll be watching your progress. Thanks for the updates.

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    "Stand back, I'm holding a calculator." - chinrest

    "I happen to have an original 1955 Stratocaster! The neck and body have been replaced with top quality Warmoth parts, I upgraded the hardware and put in custom, hand wound pickups. It's fabulous. There's nothing like that vintage tone or owning an original." - Chuck H

  29. #29
    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    All true. Since the existing post holes are 3/8" Off setting them a bit with 7/16" holes won't be a problem. I have to dowel them to drill accurately anyway. I measured the scale and they appeared to take insetting the neck into the body into acount and doing it 1/4" seems to be correct for the hole locations. The Bad Ass type bridge is very forgiving. I started this project because this style is harder to find. There are more expensive kits that have a better level of completion. The product discription even said that it was not for the unexperienced with no luthier skills. It would work fine with the existing holes. I just want to make it look authentic.

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    Last edited by olddawg; 03-21-2018 at 07:36 PM.

  30. #30
    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Well... I tried to do the 2 sided tape trick for the router fence to lengthen the neck pocket. It slipped and I'm not Joe Cool with a router anyway. Simply don't do it enough. But as it turns out. After measuring again for the scale to work out accurately, I'm going to have to inset the neck end into the body at least a 1/4". That will get rid of my "rounded edge" problem where the neck joins the body. Another pass with the router should make it cleaner with no or very little gap at the end of the tendon joint. But seriously, I've seen vintage 50s and 60s Gibsons with bigger flubs than this. They just used a lot of glue! And btw, the circular scaring is level with the rest of the rout. Taking my time. Using the tools I have at hand. When I get the neck set right I'll drill the bridge post insert holes. I have them approximately marked with blue tape.

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  31. #31
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    Just need to clean up the end of the neck pocket.

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  32. #32
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    I need to inset the neck just a tiny bit more where it meets the body. This will not be period correct. If I was to do it over I would have trimmed the end of the fretboard past the 22nd fret. Then it would have looked right. Honestly starting to regret this project. But as another reviewer of this kit said. It’s cheap enough to do a couple until you get it right. I don’t have that kind of patience. I’m sure it will play fine. That long (ish) piece of rosewood inset into the body is going to bug me. Lol. Now that I think about it I should be able to trim it after it is together with a little luck?

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  33. #33
    Supporting Member John_H's Avatar
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    Cool project. I've been watching your progress. Juniors are my favorite to build. I've done many guitars based on them, and a few replicas. I was lucky enough to get a '59 to measure, and make accurate templates from a few years ago.

    The neck join on these is correct when the end of the fingerboard lines up with the edge of the body. outside the 1/4 inch radius round over. I know, it seems odd, but that's how they are. I probably would have just shortened the tenon on the neck a little rather than routing the pocket deeper. On a real '59 the pickguard barely covers the neck tenon. From the sound of things though, your bridge wasn't properly located, and moving the neck was needed.

    I've got a few pictures, and the critical data from the '59. If I can help, let me know. I would have posted on this sooner, but I don't get on the desktop PC much anymore, and posting from my phone is awkward.

    Here are a couple of pictures; The Cherry colored one, I built for a friend. I chose the soapbar because of the gotoh bridge. The other is an accurate replica.

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  34. #34
    Old Timer olddawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John_H View Post
    Cool project. I've been watching your progress. Juniors are my favorite to build. I've done many guitars based on them, and a few replicas. I was lucky enough to get a '59 to measure, and make accurate templates from a few years ago.

    The neck join on these is correct when the end of the fingerboard lines up with the edge of the body. outside the 1/4 inch radius round over. I know, it seems odd, but that's how they are. I probably would have just shortened the tenon on the neck a little rather than routing the pocket deeper. On a real '59 the pickguard barely covers the neck tenon. From the sound of things though, your bridge wasn't properly located, and moving the neck was needed.

    I've got a few pictures, and the critical data from the '59. If I can help, let me know. I would have posted on this sooner, but I don't get on the desktop PC much anymore, and posting from my phone is awkward.

    Here are a couple of pictures; The Cherry colored one, I built for a friend. I chose the soapbar because of the gotoh bridge. The other is an accurate replica.

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    Thanks for the response John and for the info. I couldnít get a decent picture of the neck joint on the web and took some other foolís advice. I actually owned a real 59 for years as a kid. Thatís me in the picture. It was stolen in a studio robbery in the early 80s. So Iím trying to replicate it. The kit was cheap. Unfortunately my luthier skills arenít up to my others, lol. The neck tenon on this one isnít even close to an exact copy. I didnít shorten it because Iím not sure how itís put together inside. If itís a player Iíll have a custom pick guard made anyway and if I have to stretch it a bit to cover the scar or pay a little mor attention to the finish I will. Since my original was a sloppy refinish Iím going that direction anyway,
    Btw.. your work looks excellent! Iím a hack!

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  35. #35
    Supporting Member John_H's Avatar
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    Thanks for the nice words Ronnie. I loved the way your SG turned out. It inspired me to do something with the one I've got. Your work looks great, and you seem to enjoy doing it, so rock on!

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