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Thread: What pedal is best for swirly, trippy sort of sounds

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    What pedal is best for swirly, trippy sort of sounds

    What pedal is best for swirly, trippy sort of sounds, kinda like the lovely eggs recent record (the songs Big Sea and Let Me Observer inparticulary)

    Am thinking Phaser ? Any suggestions ?

    Thanks

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Some years ago I was tasked to revive an old Roland AP-7 Jet Phaser. Wow, what a great sound! Can't say I'm familiar with the acts you mention, but once I heard the AP-7 my brain instantly said "Isley Brothers". Time was, you couldn't give these away. Now they sell for gold dust money. Funny the owner of the Jet Phaser said he found it under his sofa, totally forgot he ever had it, must have lost it there while partying too much in his early years. That's one to never lose again.

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    Some of the Lovely Eggs stuff sounds to me like a triggered phaser. Some flangers have this feature as well. Depends on the particular effect, but flangers and phasers can be pretty close depending on settings and it's worth listening to clips of both.

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    I went to some trouble to listen to those tracks (and some trouble actually listening to those tracks ) and I didn't hear the swirly, trippy sound on the guitars. I heard it on the keyboards though. Some synth patches from ??? manufacturer as manipulated on board by the player. I don't think a pedal is what you're looking for.

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    "I'm just going to perform a bit more scientific investigation, turn it up to 11 and rip of the knob." überfuzz

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    I'll put in a plug for the Line 6 Liqui-Flange (which Behringer makes a clone of). Often overlooked, this is a decent flanger with a lot of different sounds built into it, including through-sero flanging. It also has a wide variety of modulation options, including envelope-controlled flanging, triggered flange sweeps (both of these available in each direction, random sweep, and a "stepped" flange that sounds like sample-and-hold.

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    A cheap (but excellent) pedal also from Behringer is the phaser version - the SP400. Now discontinued but still come up for sale.

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    I'm with Chuck. I had to go to youtube to find out what the OP was referring to, and when I found it...

    Maybe I'm just showing my age, but when somebody asks about a stompbox to obtain swirly, trippy sounds, I immediately think "UniVibe"...


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    "Swirly" spans the range from what some might call "animated" (as in the Trower and prototypic Uni-Vibe/overdrive combination) to what some might call "psychedelic", as in things like stereo phaser/flanger sweeps or even the EHX Blurst modulated filter. There is also a zone between flanger and chorus-range delays, that achieves something close to slow Leslie tone. Rotating-speaker emulators can also be described as "swirly", when set to slow speeds. Although I have to add that most rotating-speaker simulators often fail to impress, when listened to in mono. They tend to demand a stereo spread to have aural impact.

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    Old Timer Leo_Gnardo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    There is also a zone between flanger and chorus-range delays, that achieves something close to slow Leslie tone. Rotating-speaker emulators can also be described as "swirly", when set to slow speeds. Although I have to add that most rotating-speaker simulators often fail to impress, when listened to in mono. They tend to demand a stereo spread to have aural impact.
    Thanks for mentioning Leslie - yes the simulators all fall short. Though it's a thousand times bigger than a pedal, there's nothing like a real Leslie (147, 145, 122) for guitar. LUV that sound!

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    There's a reason that I've never been able to get that "Wish You Were Here" / "Have a Cigar" guitar or bass tone out of a stompbox, no matter how many I've tried.

    On that record *everyone* used Leslies.


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    Last edited by bob p; 02-24-2018 at 04:27 PM.
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    At the risk of digressing too far, and as the proud owner of a cheese-wheel vibra-tone, taken from a home console organ and adapted into its own cabinet, I will concur that true rotating speakers sound wonderful. Part of that is because they are a sort of physical post-production effect, superimposed onto whatever everything else in the signal chain leading up to the speaker has done; something which has a different impact on the cumulative signal than a pedal inserted much earlier in the chain.

    All of that said, I will still insist that decent Leslie emulators (and I have a few) become MUCH more inspiring when run in true stereo, such that the signal not only has all of the relevant doppler stuff and filtering applied, but physically moves around the listening space, from speakers to speakers.

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    That video trips me out... That's "Echoes" footage from "Live at Pompeii," 1972, not "Have A Cigar."

    I guess more to the point, Dave had a Dual Showman Reverb and a Leslie in the Big Room at Abbey Road for SOYCD. I had a 1968 DSR; the sound is in there. No Leslie, though.

    Justin

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    I was looking for the Abbey Road video of Gilmour's DSR + Leslie being used for the taping of "Us and Them" or maybe it was "Diamond." I couldn't remember which one it was, and couldn't find either one, so I went with the "Cigar" segment from Pompeii. It showed everyone having a Leslie.

    I wasn't able to find what I was looking for because a lot of the Floyd stuff on Youtube has a short half-life, like the Hendrix videos.

    They must have had a generator truck parked nearby, I don' think there's power in the coliseum.


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    Last edited by bob p; 02-24-2018 at 10:02 PM.
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    Hey Bob,

    I never saw a video of Abbey Road with the DSR; just a photo in a book - either the one coauthored by Nick Mason or The Black Strat. But, Floyd's always been big on "everyone playing through everything;" I remember Roger and Dave and Rick all playing through Binson Echorecs, too... I mean, why not? If you've got the money and the storage space, AND you actually USE the gear, I don't have a problem with them having it. I took a lot of what I do and my approach to "problem solving" from Floyd... And it always seemed to me that even if a "shortcut" or a more convenient way of doing something came along that was ALMOST as good, they stuck with the real. Whether one appreciates the complexity of those solutions in the face of convenience is an argument for another day, but I just remember your knob that was a spectrum between Convenience and Tone, with it always on full CW to Tone.

    Justin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    All of that said, I will still insist that decent Leslie emulators (and I have a few) become MUCH more inspiring when run in true stereo, such that the signal not only has all of the relevant doppler stuff and filtering applied, but physically moves around the listening space, from speakers to speakers.
    Inspiring or disorienting?

    I remember the first time I experienced that, back in the 70s. Mangione was big back then, and we were performing Feels So Good on a dark theatrical stage. Our guitarist was a big fan of Grant Geissman. For that performance he surprised us all with his brand-new stereo Bi-Phase with slaves without warning us about it. It was completely dark, except for a few dim colored lights that started pulsing for his solo. As the lights start pulling he stepped on that Bi-Phase and I got hit with total loss of balance and I felt like I was going to fall off of the stage. It was so disorienting that I could barely play my bass. If you've ever experienced this sort of thing with dual phasors in stereo then you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. For me, it only overwhelmed me the first time I was exposed to it. Once I learned how to process the signals I was OK, but the first time it was extremely disorienting. Almost 50 years later I still remember the impact of that moment. It was like losing my dual-phasor virginity.

    Somebody needs to market a repro Bi-Phase stompbox. I'd buy one in a heartbeat.

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    One of the reasons why the Ibanez Flying Pan tanked. Combining phasing and auto-pan sounds like a fascinating idea, but you couldn't play with that thing behind you into two amps for more than 10 seconds.

    As I've probably recounted on more than one occasion, the only time I've ever stepped up to a mic and completely blanked on song lyrics, was a time when I was playing through an old Valco set to slow tremolo on my right, and my Princeton-driven Vibratone, set to slow, on my left. It was incredibly distracting. I'm sure it would have been delightful if I was an audience-member and chemically-altered, but not if you're trying to do a job.

    In discussion on another forum, with freelance designer "Ton" Barmentloo (who designed a number of products for EHX), I mentioned the idea of "wet-panning", and this intrigued him. The Flanger Hoax pedal came out shortly after that, but I have no idea if the idea was implemented in it. It's a pretty deep pedal, and not the sort of thing you can put through its paces in a music store, unless you have the afternoon free.

    "Wet-panning" implies that the clean signal remains constant out the two outputs, but the wet signal is blended with clean to intensify the effect on each channel in alternating, or rather morphing, fashion. This sidesteps the disorienting aspect of starkly different signals/tones and amplitudes from each channel.

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    I'm with you there. In fact, I just bought a Nux Monterey pedal for AUD80. Its a Chinese made clone of the original Univibe. Bargain. It sounds great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    One of the reasons why the Ibanez Flying Pan tanked. Combining phasing and auto-pan sounds like a fascinating idea, but you couldn't play with that thing behind you into two amps for more than 10 seconds.

    As I've probably recounted on more than one occasion, the only time I've ever stepped up to a mic and completely blanked on song lyrics, was a time when I was playing through an old Valco set to slow tremolo on my right, and my Princeton-driven Vibratone, set to slow, on my left. It was incredibly distracting. I'm sure it would have been delightful if I was an audience-member and chemically-altered, but not if you're trying to do a job.

    In discussion on another forum, with freelance designer "Ton" Barmentloo (who designed a number of products for EHX), I mentioned the idea of "wet-panning", and this intrigued him. The Flanger Hoax pedal came out shortly after that, but I have no idea if the idea was implemented in it. It's a pretty deep pedal, and not the sort of thing you can put through its paces in a music store, unless you have the afternoon free.

    "Wet-panning" implies that the clean signal remains constant out the two outputs, but the wet signal is blended with clean to intensify the effect on each channel in alternating, or rather morphing, fashion. This sidesteps the disorienting aspect of starkly different signals/tones and amplitudes from each channel.
    Funny you should mention the "Flying Pan". I modded mine when I was about 17 by installing Craig Andertons overdrive circuit in one of the useless panning channels. Shame really. I devalued the pedal from a now collectable USD600 to about AUD 20

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    As it turns out I was looking at YT videos for the Flanger Hoax yesterday. It's complicated. None of them did it justice.

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Hijacking for a minute -- have you looked at the new Electric Mistress products? Specifically the new Deluxe Electric Mistress and the Electric Mistress XO? I've been trying to get a feel for how they compare to the originals, as I've become wary about taking my A/DA out of the house and I'm looking for something "disposable" for the pedalboard. Unfortunately for me it's just not possible to get them all side by side to compare, so i thought I'd ask.

    So many flangers, so little time...

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    As more pedals incorporate digital brains, it becomes more important for manufacturers to either provide demonstration videos showing how to use the different controls/features, or applets with graphic interfaces. Once upon a time, we had big-panel modular synths, whose control layout and patching jacks gave some clues as to what went where and could be harnessed to do what. But SMT construction and microcontrollers mean that more and more functions are being packed into smaller and smaller spaces, making it more difficult for users to have a mental picture of how they would set things to achieve some imagined sound. The Flanger Hoax WAS entirely analog, but still gives you some idea of how a product can tank because it is not immediately self-evident. Sometimes, usability is as important, if not moreso, than capability.

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    i guess that means that you can't answer my question?

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    If that's directed at me, I simply lost track of what the question was supposed to be. Is it a recommendation for a simple-to-use inexpensive flanger?

    If so, and if you are leery of taking a prized A/DA out of the house, Behringer makes a clone of the Liqui-Flange in the form of the FL600 Flanger Machine. The Line 6 Tonecore version has tap tempo, but I don't know if the Behringer version does. When you can find them, they usually retail for $60 or so.

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    Glad to see the flanger hoax getting a couple mentions. I have one, and it's my favorite modulation pedal. It doesn't do wet panning, but it does have three outputs (clean, effect, blend). It gets intense - but that tends to happen when you make a through-zero flanger out of two phasers. I've never been quite able to get the same sound out of it twice, but it always sounds good so it doesn't really matter.

    This page does a good rundown of what it does and how: mode zero - phase shifter phaser flanger chorus delay vintage effects photos mp3 demos

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Part of the problem that I've seen with the new EH flanger demos is that they seem to be too intense, compared to the vintage Electric Mistress, which I think was more subtle. Listening to the demos, they remind me of watching an LCD TV, where all of the colors are so intense that it looks like you're watching an animated comic book. There's no subtlety in color any more. All of the bits are at their limit. My problem is that I can't tell if the flangers are just that intense, or if the problem is that the people demoing them don't understand subtlety and they are intent on hitting me over the head with a hammer.

    Mark, I'm not looking for something cheap, it's just that I'd prefer not to lose a piece of expensive vintage gear that would be very hard to replace. The A/DA falls into the hard to find and expensive when you find it category. OTOH, something like the new production EH isn't all that expensive and is very easy to find. My question really, is what's good that compres to the old Mistress.

    Regarding cheap stuff -- I have nothing against cheap stuff, I hear the Mistress clones like the Mooer e-Lady are pretty good. As is the Donner Jet Convolution, which is supposed to be a clone of the e-Lady (now we have clones of clones!). But I was really trying to get a handle on how the new EH stuff compares to the old EH stuff. I prefer to support the American designers rather than the Chinese IP-violators whenever I can.

    FWIW I have not had good results with Behringer gear in the past. All of the Behringer pro audio stuff has failed early. It seems that most Behringer stuff isn't made to last, and it doesn't last very long. (Knocking on wood with my Bugera amps...)

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    Last edited by bob p; 02-28-2018 at 06:23 PM.
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    One of the inherent limitations of many analog flangers is that tey can't sweep up high enough, or rather, can't sweep down to ultra-short delays under 1msec. E.g., the Boss BF-2 only goes down to 1msec, and no further. The constraint is the input capacitance of the clock pins on the BBD, as well as the potential clock frequency of the MN3102 used to drive it. The A/DA uses buffering to goose the current of the clock signal and overcome the input capacitance of the BBD. I've seen the same BBD used in the BF-2 clocked up to 1.5mhz, yielding fantastic jet plane sounds.

    The other thing about being able to sweep to ultra-short delays is that with the notches all situated in the upper range (at short delays), it doesn't sound as boxey, especially if you set it for modest sweep width. The Liqui-Flange is capable of that, which is a nice feature. Try one out. I think you'll like it. And if cost is not a big consideration, go for the Line 6 version rather than the Behringer. It's a lot heavier, but the dual-action footswitch and tap tempo is useful. I think the Behringer does let you have tap tempo, but you need to hold the switch down for 2sec or something like that. The Line 6 version has to microswitches under the foot treadle, at different altitudes. Soft touch gets you tap tempo, and bypass takes a harder press.

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    Better Tone thru Mathematics bob p's Avatar
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    Looking at Line6, it appears that the Liqua-Flange is out of production. Is this what you were referring to?

    https://line6.com/tonecore/liquaflange.html

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    Yep.

    People just don't know enough about how to use flangers. I imagine the EHX Flanger Hoax is also not in production anymore. Also a great pedal, but too damn deep for folks more accustomed to, and comfortable with, 3-knob pedals.

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    Just an addendum that, while the website refers those interested to the M5/9/13, none of those retains all the same modulation options that are available in the Liqui-Flange. They have a little more than your basic 3-knob flanger, but not as much as an actual Liqui-Flange.

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    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leo_Gnardo View Post
    Thanks for mentioning Leslie - yes the simulators all fall short. Though it's a thousand times bigger than a pedal, there's nothing like a real Leslie (147, 145, 122) for guitar. LUV that sound!
    Yes and no... you can never get the 3D sound of a Leslie cabinet in real life but the H&K Rotosphere MKII makes a very nice stereo simulation for recording. And a guitarist friend picked up the current state of the art simulator awhile back, the Neo Mini Vent(ilator) which I haven't tried yet.

    https://www.premierguitar.com/articl...ni-vent-review

    For spacey swirly sounds the Keeley Seafoam + reinvents the lowly Chorus pedal with 3 different modes. The ADT (Automatic Double Tracker) mode has a real choral effect adding 2 slightly detuned voices along with digital reverb. The original Seafoam mode allows a full blend between the dry tone fully CCW to a really cool vibrato fully CW. The 3rd mode is a dual chorus allowing independent depths for higher pitches (open high E string and up) and lower pitches. But it is the ADT mode that really grabs you by the, er, Graph Techs.

    https://robertkeeley.com/product/seafoam-plus-chorus/



    https://youtu.be/_uQgB1FiuAk

    While I had only been familiar with Keeley's analog designs I am really knocked out by what he is doing in the digital realm as well. His Memphis Sun pedal also uses ADT as his team recreates some very authentic slapback and reverb sounds from the early rockabilly recordings at Sun Studios.

    Steve A.

    P.S. As for the Roland AP-7 Jet Phaser from the 70's I had one for doing the Ernie Isley thing when playing in a soul band in 1977 (we were the house band for a private club in East Oakland that stayed open all night. The members kept their own booze bottles behind the bar so there were no alcohol sales, just a lot of drug sales I imagine.)

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  33. #33
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    I will put in a plug for the Behringer Space C. It is a clone of the old 4-button Boss DC-2. The DC-2 used two counterswept bucket brigade chips, such that as one was going sharp, the other was going flat. Beyond having two parallel voices added to the dry signal, the combined sharp+flat aspect meant that it never sounded like the pitch wobble inherent to regular chorus pedals.

    The original Boss unit used 4 "radio buttons", where pressing any single one disabled the others. The Behringer version uses a much cheaper set of buttons, which not only permits pressing more than one at a time, but also allows for the effect to be engaged when none of them is pressed. That's my favorite setting for my unit. A lovely slow-Leslie swirl, that rides the zone between chorus and flanging. The pedal provides stereo counterswept outputs. Use of companding (it is a clone of the DC-2, not just "inspired by") keeps it pleasingly hiss-free. Not sure they are still being produced. I bought mine on sale for $30Cdn.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA4gVuhM6BM

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  34. #34
    Supporting Member Steve A.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hammer View Post
    I will put in a plug for the Behringer Space C. It is a clone of the old 4-button Boss DC-2. The DC-2 used two counterswept bucket brigade chips, such that as one was going sharp, the other was going flat. Beyond having two parallel voices added to the dry signal, the combined sharp+flat aspect meant that it never sounded like the pitch wobble inherent to regular chorus pedals.
    One of my regrets in life was not buying a DC-2 when I saw one in a music store in the late 80's... I already had a CE-2 so why the heck would I need a DC-2?!? D'oh!

    LINE 6 includes a Dimension model with their M5/M9/M13 boxes - I wonder how that compares with the Boss...

    Behringer also makes a UV-300 clone of the Boss VB-2 vibrato which Lonnie Mack used on his big tours in the 80's instead of hauling around his Magnatone amps.

    Steve A.

    P.S. The Keeley Seafoam + also has a flanger mode accessed by internal DIP switches. I was wondering why they don't run it out to an accessible toggle switch but I suspect that it connects to the digital chip. Back in the late 80's there were jumpers on the mobo that I tried running out to a case mounted switch. It did not work because of the latency introduced by the 16" of wire. Darn!

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    Last edited by Steve A.; 03-05-2018 at 03:15 AM.

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