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  • Active electronics is guitar?

    There are lots of basses with active electronics. Why are there few guitars with active electronics?

  • #2
    My guess is that on bass people use the active controls for tone shaping to get their bass tone to cut through the mix. Screaming guitar usually doesn't have that problem. So many bass amps these days are way to bottom heavy, and then they need 1000 watts to be heard. I have played in some loud frickin' bands with my 75 watt peavey and had people say I played too loud.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Axtman View Post
      There are lots of basses with active electronics. Why are there few guitars with active electronics?
      Well, there are all of the Fender strats with the mid-boost circuit (EC, Buddy Guy, etc.) But I do agree with glebert regarding shaping the tone on a bass.
      I had a handful of active wiring harnesses for my 1976 LP Standard in the 80's but always went back to passive. I even made one from a Craig Anderton active Bass/Treble eq project... what a waste!
      Then again there are a lot of active pickups from EMG and others.

      I think that the bottom line is that passive guitars can sound pretty damn good...

      Steve A.
      The Blue Guitar
      www.blueguitar.org
      Some recordings:
      https://soundcloud.com/sssteeve/sets...e-blue-guitar/
      .

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Steve A. View Post
        Then again there are a lot of active pickups from EMG and others.

        I think that the bottom line is that passive guitars can sound pretty damn good...

        Steve A.
        This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

        Since bass amps are typically called upon to take a relatively small block of wood and produce deep, resonant sounds they are much closer to "reference" amplifiers than guitar amps are. So it's possible to shape EQ ahead of the input without changing the function of the amplifier much. With a guitar amp/guitar combination you have a "system". They evolved together and create a unique effect. Guitar amps are definitely NOT reference amplifiers and are closer to being effected signal processors. Changing EQ in front of a guitar amp more than mildly can have drastic and discordant affects on it's function. So the only real use for active electronics in guitars would be the advantages of lower impedance. Leading to...

        There was a glut of active guitar pickups that started sometime in the early 90's. Even Fenders top of the line Stratocasters had active pickups (Lace Sensor) and Eric Clapton was was their front man!. The active pickups still hang on to this day in some jazz and metal circles (mostly EMG). Interestingly (or not) it came back around to mostly passive pickups for guitars. So much so that there are new metal amps with switchable input circuitry to make your active pickups sound more like passives!?!

        JM2C
        "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

        "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

        "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
        You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

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        • #5
          I recently picked up a partscaster with EMG active pickups (the David Gilmour setup) and the sound is a bit odd. If you push the boost controls it gets a bit flange-y (I need to try with a brand new battery to see if that helps). Even with the boosts off they seem like they are trying to emulate a fender sound rather than just having that sound. Haven't set up with my normal strings yet, but on chords the notes don't blend as well as they should (or as much as I would like). They are very quiet though, which is nice for single coils.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Chuck H View Post
            This^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

            Since bass amps are typically called upon to take a relatively small block of wood and produce deep, resonant sounds they are much closer to "reference" amplifiers than guitar amps are. So it's possible to shape EQ ahead of the input without changing the function of the amplifier much. With a guitar amp/guitar combination you have a "system". They evolved together and create a unique effect. Guitar amps are definitely NOT reference amplifiers and are closer to being effected signal processors. Changing EQ in front of a guitar amp more than mildly can have drastic and discordant affects on it's function. So the only real use for active electronics in guitars would be the advantages of lower impedance. Leading to...

            There was a glut of active guitar pickups that started sometime in the early 90's. Even Fenders top of the line Stratocasters had active pickups (Lace Sensor) and Eric Clapton was was their front man!. The active pickups still hang on to this day in some jazz and metal circles (mostly EMG). Interestingly (or not) it came back around to mostly passive pickups for guitars. So much so that there are new metal amps with switchable input circuitry to make your active pickups sound more like passives!?!

            JM2C
            I agree with all that, and it's well said....but...

            If passive means not needing a power source and active does, then Lace Sensors would not be an active pickup. They require no battery.

            They are a different construction and sound from the usual passive pickup, the details of which I don't know, but I've owned the Jeff Beck Strat in the past and have a set on an unused pickguard now, so I am familiar with them.

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            • #7
              I recently picked up a First Act guitar with pre-amp/active electronics that impressed me. I got rid of my Ovation UKII because their active electronics didn't. Some tech advances are real

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              • #8
                Originally posted by ric View Post
                I agree with all that, and it's well said....but...

                If passive means not needing a power source and active does, then Lace Sensors would not be an active pickup. They require no battery.

                They are a different construction and sound from the usual passive pickup, the details of which I don't know, but I've owned the Jeff Beck Strat in the past and have a set on an unused pickguard now, so I am familiar with them.
                ric,

                The Alumitone design by Lace is a current transformer. The aluminum frame is stamped out to fit either a strat style pickup, humbucker, or P90 footprint. If you look closely at one side, you will see long c-shaped laminations going through the aluminum frame where the two string loops with the magnet in the center would be in series and this acts as the single turn primary in a current transformer. The laminations just allow a stamped frame to be used as a string loop with no need to form a solder joint. Under the Alumitone, attached to the c-shaped laminated transformer core are two round coils about .75 inches long by about .375 inches in diameter which each contain about 15000 turns of very fine magnet wire between AWG 46 to 48 to make about a 5000 ohm coil. These coils are wired in parallel and thus represent a pickup with about 2500 Ohms output resistance. Using the principal of current transformers operating at a very low level, the voicing of the Alumitone can be altered by varying the secondary turn count and by controlling the size and resistance of the string loop. Thick conductors pass less high frequency to the center and thus create less high frequency current. Here is where the ears of the pickup designers govern the desired sound and mass production can make each pickup a very close match to produce the designed sound.

                I hope this explains the Lace Alumitone design?

                Joseph J. Rogowski
                Last edited by bbsailor; 06-10-2018, 08:47 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by bbsailor View Post
                  ric,

                  The Alumitone design by Lace is a current transformer. The aluminum frame is stamped out to fit either a strat style pickup, humbucker, or P90 footprint. If you look closely at one side, you will see long c-shaped laminations going through the aluminum frame where the two string loops with the magnet in the center would be in series and this acts as the single turn primary in a current transformer. The laminations just allow a stamped frame to be used as a string loop with no need to form a solder joint. Under the Alumitone, attached to the c-shaped laminated transformer core are two round coils about .75 inches long by about .375 inches in diameter which each contain about 15000 turns of very fine magnet wire between AWG 46 to 48 to make about a 5000 ohm coil. These coils are wired in parallel and thus represent a pickup with about 2500 Ohms output resistance. Using the principal of current transformers operating at a very low level, the voicing of the Alumitone can be altered by varying the secondary turn count and by controlling the size and resistance of the string loop. Thick conductors pass less high frequency to the center and thus create less high frequency current. Here is where the ears of the pickup designers govern the desired sound and mass production can make each pickup a very close match to produce the designed sound.

                  I hope this explains the Lace Alumitone design?

                  Joseph J. Rogowski
                  Yes, Joseph, it does explain it- thanks.

                  I have the plastic red/ blue/ gold types and wasn't aware of the workings of the new type(s). I'm not aware of the workings of the old ones, for that matter, only that they needed no battery. Thanks again for bringing me up to speed.

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                  • #10
                    I did not know the LS pickups weren't technically active! And that's interesting technology. I'll stand behind my post above with that exception then.
                    "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                    "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                    "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                    You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I have a Gibson GK55 that has passive humbuckers and has a factory active MOOG board. It’s not a synth but has active tone controls with a +/- 15db boost/cut. The speed knobs have “0” in the middle. It has some other unfathonable switches too. I’ve found the damn thing unusable, lol. Been hanging on my wall for years.

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                      • #12
                        Guitarists can't be trusted to pick up the kids, walk the dog OR buy batteries. Guitarists are also MUCH more traditional than bassists. Traditionally the guitarist gets all the attention/sex etc. while the traditional bassist is mainly forgotten
                        Few can hear the bass in a typical mix so the poor guys will try nearly anything.

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                        • #13
                          To answer my own question.....my thought is that bass players like a clean sound with lots of headroom where as guitar players like a dirty overdriven sound. Active electronics are for more clean sound rather than overdrive. But I could be wrong.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Axtman View Post
                            To answer my own question.....my thought is that bass players like a clean sound with lots of headroom where as guitar players like a dirty overdriven sound. Active electronics are for more clean sound rather than overdrive. But I could be wrong.
                            Originally.... EMGs were high output active to slam the preamps of Marshall(ish) amps.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Axtman View Post
                              To answer my own question.....
                              Well you've had many replies, so why did you ask it then

                              It's not as simple as a "clean" vs. "dirty" thing. olddawg replied aptly in post #14. The advantages of active electronics simply hasn't reached the guitar "system" market the same way as the bass guitar market because it's less accessible for the reasons I stated in post #4. Even clean guitar sounds are "effected" by phase and intermodulation distortions that don't necessarily sound "distorted" but still affect the tone and feel. Bass players, OTOH, struggle just to get the frequency range they're after. Bass amps are REFERENCE amps, pretty much. Guitar amps are SIGNAL PROCESSORS, pretty much. Being that bass amps are reference amps you can put anything you want into them. Bass, phonograph, keyboard, intermission program And many are sold as such too. And always have been.

                              Guitar amps are specifically designed to make guitar pickups sound a certain way and certainly NOT as reference amps. Most guitar amps would be much poorer reference amps than bass guitar amps for exactly this reason. So bass and their amps have evolved more with newer technologies because it was more accessible to that market. Whereas guitars and guitar amps have evolved together outside of that market. There have been many (and will be more) attempts to apply standard audio industry tech (reference amplification) to guitars, but because they and their amps exist in an isolated niche it rarely takes and holds on. Bass guitars and their amps, being in a more typical audio technologies area (reference amplification) bass guitars are more accessible to such efforts and they persist more readily.

                              Simple Simon.
                              "Take two placebos, works twice as well." Enzo

                              "Now get off my lawn with your silicooties and boom-chucka speakers and computers masquerading as amplifiers" Justin Thomas

                              "If you're not interested in opinions and the experience of others, why even start a thread?
                              You can't just expect consent." Helmholtz

                              Comment

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