Dinosaur PAF tone

[EFK]

Hello everyone. I've been lurking here a long time and have learned a lot, so thanks to all who have shared what they know. What really appeals to me more than any other 'tone' is the sound of Clapton's guitar on the Cream Goodbye album, the two live tracks Politician and Sitting on top of the world. These were recorded in LA and all I know is that he was supposedly using a LP for this show, not the funky SG or a 335. This is a really honky, tubular, hollow sound, esp. the opening notes in Poitician. Unfortunately, I don;t know enough to really describe well what I'm hearing. Are these really 'honky' mids? What do you think is going on here? Is this a 'classic' paf tone? A2 or A5? How can you tell? Actually I suspect a really loud Marshall has a lot to do with it too, but the guitar itself has to be setting the stage. Any thoughts? Sorry for the stupid question but it's been eating at me a LONG time! Thanks.

[Possum]

....

I listened to the compress realaudio on Amazon and yes it sounds like an LP with PAFs. The hollow tone is classic PAF. I'm reading his autobiography now, and he says on the Beano album he only played the bridge and turned the bass up ALL THE WAY. He doesn't mention it in the book but he used a treble booster for gain, and obviously turned the treble down on the guitar or amp, because its not a trebly tone. so I suspect his tone controls on amp and or guitar were similar in those recordings.

Alot of those PAFs were alnico 2, or non-oriented alnico 5 which sounds like alnico 2 but is stronger magnetically. I've been doing alot of intense work on recreating the real PAF characteristics by using the right alloys in the magnetic circuit, here is a video of that research effort:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij2F8wXH8nc
Still more work to do, but getting in the hit zone for sure.

If you do enough research you can get a real PAF on Ebay for $400 range, a fixer upper, maybe damaged base plate or whatever. The early patent stickers were basically PAFs, no difference until the magnet wire changed to orange poly. Just make sure none of the parts were changed out and you'd be good to go.

[David Schwab]

Wasn't that the SG he played? I was just reading about this somewhere, but now I can't recall... Guitar Player I guess.

He also used to turn the tone control off for that "woman tone".

He got such a great tone on those old Cream records. Now when I hear him I cringe!

[edit]

Took a minute and found the story in GP. It was on the Elliot Easton model SG from Gibson, which is kind of a copy of Clapton's SG.

He talks about Disraeli Gears, but it's the same tone really.

The Vibrola does, however, give the Easton SG a voice that is way different than a standard stop tailpiece. Acoustically, the Easton sounds open and floral—it’s not as grounded or as focused as my SG Standard. Through a 50-watt plexi Marshall or a Fender Deluxe Reverb, the Easton gives off the old-school Clapton/Cream stank big time, as it produces overtones that a fixed-bridge SG simply can’t deliver.

“I believe that SG tone doesn’t get any better than Eric Clapton’s sound on Cream’s Disraeli Gears,” he says, referring to Slowhand’s famous psychedelicized SG he used on much of the record. “And although Clapton removed the Vibrola’s cover to show off the artwork, the long trapeze tailpiece was left on the guitar. I happen to think that setup—as opposed to a stop tailpiece—yields a bit less sustain, but gives you clearer note separation, and a more distinctive sound. But, honestly, I never touch the actual vibrato bar. I don’t even breathe on it! It’s there strictly because I like the tone and string tension more than with a stop tailpiece. Players would often pull off the Vibrola, and install a stop tailpiece in the quest for endless sustain, but I feel sustain is an over-emphasized and overrated quality in a guitar.

“Also, I find that for playing in a five-piece band with keyboards and another guitarist, the SG’s bridge pickup has a razor-like sharpness that cuts through the mix without being overly glassy. One would assume that, because of its maple cap, the Les Paul would be the brighter guitar, but that’s not the case. An SG has a lot of high end, but not the spiky unpleasant kind. It’s sharp, but also very sweet. Listen to Clapton on “Strange Brew” for a great example of what I’m talking about.

So.. it's the pickups AND the guitar.

[David Schwab]

The early patent stickers were basically PAFs, no difference until the magnet wire changed to orange poly. Just make sure none of the parts were changed out and you'd be good to go.

And to think I had TWO of them for many years ....

[Possum]

....

David I think you missed the comment about it being recorded live in Los Angeles. Not the studio stuff. I did some googling on that concert and most agree it was a Les Paul. If it WAS an SG and was anything up to a '64, basically they were PAFs anyway. The REal Audio clips are kind of hard to judge by but it sounds like a Paul to me. Then again, with his weird tone setup it could of been an SG too. The Beano album isn't exactly the best representation of PAF tone, on that particular album he messed up the tone so much its hard to tell, I never would have identified it as a PAF Paul from his tone, not my favorite classic tone in the PAF examples from back then....

[greenfingers]

If it was a Les Paul on the live parts of the goodbye album, it will have been a different one to the one he used on the Beano album,

His first got nicked around 66 i think? and Andy Summers sold him his and recorded Fresh cream with it.

[RedHouse]

I wonder if the album was from another concert than the one in this video, here it's pretty clear Eric was using his ES-335:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfgNqgN2mzE

most of the video avoids Eric but a 4:20 he turns and one can see it clearly.

The Beano era setup was different from the Cream stuff, Eric was using a small Marshall combo (model 1936 used EL84's) on the Beano stuff with Mayall, he used a Dallas Rangemaster treble booster (which is why he allways denies using a "fuzz") to overdrive the front end of that amp. In the Cream era he and Bruce were having "volume wars" and they were both using a couple of JTM100 (used KT66's) amp stacks by that time, these amps were different than the combo circuit as they (Marshall) were changing the OT's, tubes, and other internal components at that time leading up to the "Plexi" amps.

[greenfingers]

That clip is from the Royal albert hall gig 5 week's later after the L.A forum show that was recorded and put on the goodbye album.

Maybe he used the 335 in L.A as well? who knows

[hasserl]

The Beano era setup was different from the Cream stuff, Eric was using a small Marshall combo (model 1936 used EL84's) on the Beano stuff with Mayall,

It's pretty widely held that the amp Clapton used on the Beano album was the JTM 45 model 1962 that used KT66 power tubes, not EL84's. The model 1936 is a speaker cabinet, not an amplifier.

[Electricdaveyboy]

AS far as I know the famous Beano Les Paul got stolen and never seen again.
So the Les Paul used with Cream could not be the Beano guitar.
cheers
david

[greenfingers]

It's pretty widely held that the amp Clapton used on the Beano album was the JTM 45 model 1962 that used KT66 power tubes, not EL84's. The model 1936 is a speaker cabinet, not an amplifier.

If you are referring to the 1962 JTM Head i think you are wrong, If you are on about the combo then you are right
A few things that contribute to the sound are

1. KT66 power tuber give a softer distortion and rounder sound
2. The 12AX7/ECC83 phase inverter add more compression & distortion
3. thicker birch plywood open back cabinet
4. 20 watt
5. higher plate voltage

You can see the amp with eric playing it in the studio in the sleeve notes of the album.

By the way i met jim marshall 2 weeks back, he did not look very well i think he had a stroke not long ago, A lot of history has gone through his hands! just think how different the world of rock&roll would have been without him

[David Schwab]

David I think you missed the comment about it being recorded live in Los Angeles. Not the studio stuff.

Is that the same as the Goodbye Cream film? I remember seeing that when I was young. That would probably clear things up. I can't remember what he was playing... I was too busy watching Jack! But I think he was using the painted SG.

[hasserl]

If you are referring to the 1962 JTM Head i think you are wrong, If you are on about the combo then you are right
A few things that contribute to the sound are

1. KT66 power tuber give a softer distortion and rounder sound
2. The 12AX7/ECC83 phase inverter add more compression & distortion
3. thicker birch plywood open back cabinet
4. 20 watt
5. higher plate voltage

You can see the amp with eric playing it in the studio in the sleeve notes of the album.

By the way i met jim marshall 2 weeks back, he did not look very well i think he had a stroke not long ago, A lot of history has gone through his hands! just think how different the world of rock&roll would have been without him

Yes, the combo amp. Your list must be a comparison to the Fender Bassman? FWIW, the 20 watt rating is inaccurate, more like 30.

[greenfingers]

Yea, I missed finishing that part, i ment to say( 20 watt 12" celestion speakers) wich were pushing out round about the watts you said. thanks for that hasserl

The sound of the 2x12 is different to the 4x12 of the head and cab

[GlennW]

I found something on the www that said Clapton used his Firebird on "Sittin' on Top of the World" from Goodbye Cream...don't know if it's true or not.