New member - with butyrate bobbin questions

[belwar]

Hello everyone,

What a great resource this forum is! I'm glad I stumbled along this website. Like many people here i'm getting into the process of making some pickups for the first time (probably an authentic PAF clone) and want to do it first the hard way, then move to the easier method using a pro winder, pre-made bobbins, etc.. My first pickup is going to be done with homemade random parts (i.e. homemade phenolic bobbins), homemade baseplate, crappy homemade winder etc .. You have to learn to walk before you can run.
. I plan on doing this to teach myself about all of the terms and electric jargon. I have no reservations that im going to make the worst sounding pickup ever, but you need to start somewhere to get a grasp of concepts. Luckily I have a good CNC machine and can make many of my own parts. :>

One question I have from my research is about PAF clone bobbins for small time makers.. It seems many of the larger manufacturers either have a source of authentic Butyrate bobbins, or have had them custin made. I haven't found any supply source on the internet that sells Butyrate bobbins.. Are there ANY out there? or am I going to have to find a molder to do it for me? I can see that the bobbins Mojo sells are pretty authentic but there is no mention of them being butyrate.

Thanks for helping with the first of my many, many questions.

belwar.

[Possum]

...

No one sells authentic butyrate bobbins, the ones that exist are custom made to order. To have them made the molds will run approximately $5000 then the parts are cheap after that.

[belwar]

Thank you for that answer!

So is there a bobbin that is generally concidered by most to be an "accurate" representation of a 1950's PAF bobbin? I see that tons of people offer humbucker bobbins such as Stewmac, Jones, and Mojo.. but there are so many different ones. Who makes the most accurate - even if it's pricey.

I'm surprised no one makes bobbin replicas. I would think there would be a market for it. I thought I read somewhere that Butyrate was relatively toxic.. maybe that is the problem?

[Possum]

...

no supplier makes accurate bobbins. Duncan's Seth Lover is probably the most accurate I've seen so far. Burstbuckers are wrong, most others are all wrong. Bare Knuckles are pretty good, pricey though.....

[belwar]

Thats really interesting .. So what would make it right in your mind? and what is incorrect about the existing ones?

There has to be a market out there for it..

belwar

[David Schwab]

There has to be a market out there for it..

I don't think any manufacture makes pickup parts just to sell pickup parts. They are from companies that also make pickups, and decided to also sell parts. So unless they decide they want their bobbins to be vintage accurate, they wont bother. One example is WSC. They make pickups, and they also supply a lot of the humbucker bobbins on the market, and they are made to some specs only they understand, with an odd flat portion on the bobbin.

But I guarantee they didn't make those parts to sell to pickups makers. But as long as they had all that tooling done... why not?

Duncan cares about that aspect, and has them made that way, because he makes pickups. But he doesn't sell those parts.

I'm sure the market for pickups is much larger than the market for pickup parts. And the larger pickup makers have their own parts made, just as Ford doesn't buy parts from Chevy. (But Volvo does buy parts from Buick... but that's another story )

[pupoholic]

in the interview with Duncan / Premier guitar - you will hear Evan state that they had to buy $$$ a 250 year supply of Cream dye for those bobbins.. in order to get that stuff made - and Evan goes on to state- if you would like to buy the dye - to please get a hold of him - he has plenty!

[valvulado]

I read somewhere that Butyrate was relatively toxic.. maybe that is the problem?

Hi,

Cellulosic Plastics (like Butyrate) are not toxic. The are making Screwdriver Grips, Eyewear Frames, Toys and even Toothbrush handles out of it.
Phenolic Plastics (Bakelite) are a whole diferent story. These are made from Phenol and Formaldehyde which are both extremely toxical substances (see Wiki about 'em) so I would stay away from them.

As a matter of fact, I'm studying the possibilities to make vintage Butyrate plastic parts with a friend of mine (we are both working in the eng. dept. of a big automotive supplier of plastic parts). We could do anything from making of the molds to producing the actual parts. The only question is, if the market is big enough to pay for the tool invest.
Another problem is to get hold of the original parts to copy their features

[David Schwab]

Butyrate is a substance found in a lot of plants, and Methyl butyrate is found in pineapple oil. They use it in perfume.

Ethyl butyrate is used as artificial pineapple flavoring.

Butyric acid is found in rancid butter, parmesan cheese, vomit, and body odor!

The plastic is Cellulose Acetate Butyrate or CAB.

[valvulado]

PAF Vintage Bobbin replicas made from Butyrate - any interest?

Thank you David, of cause when we are talking about Butyrate Plastic, it's short for CAB. But even the substance Butyrate itself is a lot nicer then Phenol or Formalydehyde
BTW, there are other Cellulosic Plastics like
CAP = Cellulose Acetate Propionate
and
CA= Cellulosic Acetate (which has a higher Chemical resistance)
both with slightly different properties.

-not to forget the famous Celluloid which is also based on Cellulose (made from cotton or tree pulp).
Thats why they are gaining new fame today as so-called "Bio Plastics".

But back to the topic, is there any interest in the group for vintage bobbin replicas? If we can get enough interested people together we can finance the tools and make a small production run...

[Electricdaveyboy]

I would take some but the price plays an importan role.
cheers
david

[David Schwab]

But even the substance Butyrate itself is a lot nicer then Phenol or Formalydehyde

I've made a number of basses with phenolic fingerboards ... the dust is really nasty stuff.

Uncured epoxy is not very good for you either.

[belwar]

Well i've found the Butyrate Material .. or more correctly Cellulose Acetate Butyrate or CAB. The only question remaining is the percentage of plasticizer. It seems to range from 4% to 23%. I'm a little stuck as I have no way of knowing what would be the appropriate level of plastizer for bobbins..

Any ideas?

[Joe Gwinn]

Well i've found the Butyrate Material .. or more correctly Cellulose Acetate Butyrate or CAB. The only question remaining is the percentage of plasticizer. It seems to range from 4% to 23%. I'm a little stuck as I have no way of knowing what would be the appropriate level of plastizer for bobbins..

Any ideas?

You probably want to be on the low side (near 4%) so the bobbins won't warp under the pressure of winding 10,000 turns of wire on it.