Dirty little secret... sh-h-h-h-h!

[hasserl]

Originally Posted by Mark Ingram

I have absolutely no doubt that we are not being told the whole (or *any*) truth about this mess.

Kinda makes me glad to have guns (and Bibles) to cling to: at least, when if economic woes cost me my job I will be able to hunt for food to eat.


Slight divergence:
Has anyone besides me noticed that politicians tend to be lawyers, not business-people? How do we realistically expect that those people can manage the business that is the US economic system? Its like asking Joe The Plumber to build a rocket for a mission to Saturn. He might be very good at what he does, but what he does is only part of what we need.

And how masochistic/stupid are we to keep refusing to elect people who have the skills what we need?

Real good points Mark. I think that far too often we elect people based on their looks and how well the come across in a 30 second sound bite. I think the typical "debate" we have for President or VP are pretty much worthless. Not very good debates at all. We tend to elect celebrity, not effective leaders; and for certain we are way too tied up in partisan politics. Look at the folks at the top of the political parties and it truly makes me wonder what in the hell the local voters are even thinking about when they go into the booth and pull the lever for that candidate. I won't start posting names here, because I'll surely set off a partisan tit for tat response, but really, look sat the folks at the top of politics in this country, they are the most pathetic weasels alive. What ever happened to the statesman as politician?

We get the govn't we deserve, and apparently what we deserve is pretty freakin bad.

[madialex]

Originally Posted by Mark Ingram

seeming completely naive or out of touch with reality:



Isn't there something fundamentally wrong with a business built on its ability to borrow? Shouldn't the business be built on its ability to make a profit? If a business uses a loan to start up, shouldn't it be a goal of that business to pay off the loan and learn to operate on its own revenues? Instead of (forever) paying a portion of those revenues to pay a banker to use the bank's money?

In a perfect world all business's would be able to operate like that and a lot do. In the business my family is in it works kinda like the farmer scenario. We work like hell in the warm months and make as much as we can and in good years it takes us through the winter, hours are lean for the employees at this time but most save vacation and sick time and use it in the winter during the slowest times. This year due to the economy people are not spending money and it is hurting us in a big way. We are in the Pool and Spa business, these are luxury items and no one is buying right now. With pools, most people would use their equity to buy the pools or spas but with the home prices falling faster than a dead buzzard no one can buy crap. I have even had doctors tell me items for upgrades or whatever they were thinking about doing they want to hold off, one doctor told me in 1 week he lost half his retirement in his 401K plan due to the stock market, granted i'm sure he makes enough in 1 week to buy anything his heart desires but it's just that no one wants to spend.

Anyway, right now we have enough to get through the winter if we watch everything closely and don't let little things creep up on us like wasted payroll hours, burning lights not needed etc... So long story short, yes from time to time there are business's out there that do need a line of credit...

[Mark Ingram]

Originally Posted by hasserl

Real good points Mark. I think that far too often we elect people based on their looks and how well the come across in a 30 second sound bite. I think the typical "debate" we have for President or VP are pretty much worthless.

Isn't 'debate' supposed to be about arguing a point? And trying to convince your audience based on logic? And rational thought? The recent debates seemed more like extended, close-proximity, rapid-fire political ads.

Originally Posted by hasserl

We tend to elect celebrity, not effective leaders; and for certain we are way too tied up in partisan politics.

I completely agree except that I would take out the phrase 'tend to'.

Originally Posted by hasserl

What ever happened to the statesman as politician?

I think the dignity, gravitas (how's that for a $5 word ), respectibility necessary for a person to be called 'statesman' render a person incapable of politics as it is practiced in the US today. Kinda the way wearing a perfect white suit renders one incapable of wrestling pigs or cleaning out septic tanks.

Originally Posted by hasserl

We get the govn't we deserve, and apparently what we deserve is pretty freakin bad.

Who says choices don't have consequences?!?

[Mark Ingram]

Originally Posted by madialex

In a perfect world all business's would be able to operate like that and a lot do. In the business my family is in it works kinda like the farmer scenario. We work like hell in the warm months and make as much as we can and in good years it takes us through the winter, hours are lean for the employees at this time but most save vacation and sick time and use it in the winter during the slowest times. This year due to the economy people are not spending money and it is hurting us in a big way. We are in the Pool and Spa business, these are luxury items and no one is buying right now. With pools, most people would use their equity to buy the pools or spas but with the home prices falling faster than a dead buzzard no one can buy crap. I have even had doctors tell me items for upgrades or whatever they were thinking about doing they want to hold off, one doctor told me in 1 week he lost half his retirement in his 401K plan due to the stock market, granted i'm sure he makes enough in 1 week to buy anything his heart desires but it's just that no one wants to spend.

Anyway, right now we have enough to get through the winter if we watch everything closely and don't let little things creep up on us like wasted payroll hours, burning lights not needed etc... So long story short, yes from time to time there are business's out there that do need a line of credit...

FWIW, I hope you make it through this lean time successfully. I don't like to see anyone forced out of business because of factors out of their control. It sounds like you have planned ahead for this economic downturn. And I know that if I were in your position, and a line of credit was all that stood between me and going out of business, I wouldn't hesitate to do what I needed to keep the doors open. But if I had to rely on the line of credit year after year (like *most* of the business that have failed and those that are too big to fail) I would be looking for ways to change so that I didn't keep paying interest to creditors.

My hat's off to you for running your own business (you filthy capitalist, you! ) and for surviving long enough to have a plan for dealing with a tough economy.

[Enzo]

Gravitas is a great word. Unfortunately when Sarah Palin saw it, she thought it was a new menu item at Taco Bell.

[madialex]

Originally Posted by Enzo

Gravitas is a great word. Unfortunately when Sarah Palin saw it, she thought it was a new menu item at Taco Bell.

Now that's funny, I don't care who ya are...

[Enzo]

Thank you!!!!! I'll be here all week, try the veal...

Drive safely.


Oh, and I wrote that one myself.

[Bill Moore]

I've been reading this thread for a while now, and decided to add my small amout of change. The monetary problems we are having are just that-monetary. All wealth comes from the earth, whether something is mined, or grown. Those of us who do neither, have to trade our talents to those who do produce actual wealth. Unfortunatly, many people are making their living by manipulating money, and money really is only worth what people say it is. When money was tied to gold or silver, the whole world decided what a dollar, or yen, or pound is worth, yet we allowed our politicians to lose those restraints on our dollar currency, so we have no base for our money. It's worth what someone else thinks it will buy, and if we print too many, they are worthless. In my hometown, our kids can't afford to buy a home, folks have come here from the larger states, and bid the houses up to unheard of levels. What should be a 50K-75K home are selling for 150K plus, and when things get tight,(like they are now), there is no equity, someone paid 150K for a 75K house, and that's what it's worth. Now we have politicians trying to help the greedy folks who caused the whole mess, and want us to pay for it. If you read the bible, you know that Jesus ran the money changers out of the temple, taking a cut,(interest), for making change for the collection plate,(people making money with money). Until we decide, as a country that work is rewarded, and speculating on money is not the way to make a living, I can't see how this problem can be solved, other than total failure of the system, then a dollar will be worth a dollar.

[Steve A.]

Another solution to the financial problems our country is facing just popped into my prescription drug-adled brain: after Obama is inaugurated in January and Bush is safely back at his ranch, why don't we sell Texas back to Mexico- or the highest bidder if they do not offer us enough?

Companies do that all of the time: they sell off divisions which aren't doing that well to raise capital, etc. And there is certainly a precedent for buying and selling land on a federal level- just look at the Louisiana Purchase.

Once the money obtained from the sale of Texas is spent, we can start selling off other states- Maine is so far North that it ought to be part of Canada anyway- right? And do you think that Russia would pay a premium price for all of the oil in Alaska? You betcha! Heck, we'll even throw in the governor for no extra charge...

It works for me.

Steve Ahola

[Steve A.]

Originally Posted by Bill Moore

I've been reading this thread for a while now, and decided to add my small amout of change. The monetary problems we are having are just that-monetary. All wealth comes from the earth, whether something is mined, or grown. Those of us who do neither, have to trade our talents to those who do produce actual wealth. Unfortunatly, many people are making their living by manipulating money, and money really is only worth what people say it is... Until we decide, as a country that work is rewarded, and speculating on money is not the way to make a living, I can't see how this problem can be solved, other than total failure of the system, then a dollar will be worth a dollar.

Good points! While work can be mental as well as physical, scamming and scheming to extract people's money from their wallets should be considered to be both illegal and immoral. The scam that Madoff pulled off is particularly offensive because it hit several Jewish charities very hard. Many successful Jewish businessmen believe in giving back to the community, and Madoff took advantage of that.

If you go back to prehistoric times, I believe that there have always been scam artists- people that did not want to pull their weight in the community. And even back then everybody had a good idea that they were crooked. I imagine that the early tribes had leaders- not just the bully with the biggest club, but occasionally someone who had the vision and wisdom to coordinate their endeavors. (If all you have going for you is a big club, then sooner or later someone is going to come along with a bigger club and you are history!)

I have no objections to capitalism: I think that if you come up a new product or procedure, you should be able to make as more money from it as the market will bear. Of course if it is overpriced that will probably reduce the volume of business considerably. And if you don't treat your employees well there will be a big turnover and quality will drop down the tubes. So far so good- there are checks and balances built into the system.

But as the company becomes more successful it often goes public and the founder is pushed aside- they bring in a high-powered CEO who performs his mumbo-jumbo and Presto! the stock prices go up. Well, *everything* goes up sooner or later- we call that inflation! So no big mystery involved there at all. Not unlike the witch doctors in the prehistoric tribes whose rain dance ended the drought.

The board of directors justify the compensation that the CEO is receiving by pointing to the increased value of the stock, and we enter a realm of pay completely different from the worker ants at the bottom and middle management in the intermediate levels (who are offered just a tiny taste of the rewards that might be theirs if they stick it out and get promoted).

I'm not sure at what point you'd draw the line at what is fair compensation and what is simply obscene. But the line is there somewhere. If a CEO is actually responsible for positive growth in a company, I think that he should be rewarded accordingly. But the idea of automatically giving him a few million for salary, and bonuses and stock options for several more... I think that is one factor that contributed to the mess that we are in.

With the bailouts I would have liked to see more restrictions placed on the companies receiving money from the federal government. Too much of it was handed out with hardly any conditions at all.

Getting back to prehistoric man, I think that civilization began when the early tribes decided to help support those people who due to age or illness could not support themselves in full or in part. Yes, at some point they would have to abandon those who were very old or feeble, but just giving a hand to those who needed it was a big step up from every man for himself.

Steve Ahola

Disclaimer: these are all just ideas that pop into my head, and I wouldn't even say that they are my opinions because they often change from day to day. I hear a good argument for one side and I will support that until I hear a good argument from the other side.

[Mark Ingram]

Originally Posted by Steve A.

Another solution to the financial problems our country is facing just popped into my prescription drug-adled brain: after Obama is inaugurated in January and Bush is safely back at his ranch, why don't we sell Texas back to Mexico- or the highest bidder if they do not offer us enough?

Companies do that all of the time: they sell off divisions which aren't doing that well to raise capital, etc. And there is certainly a precedent for buying and selling land on a federal level- just look at the Louisiana Purchase.

Once the money obtained from the sale of Texas is spent, we can start selling off other states- Maine is so far North that it ought to be part of Canada anyway- right? And do you think that Russia would pay a premium price for all of the oil in Alaska? You betcha! Heck, we'll even throw in the governor for no extra charge...

It works for me.

Steve Ahola

Except that Texas wasn't purchased from Mexico (or anyone else, for that matter). But Mexican citizens are taking over here so the transition to Mexican rule will cause minimal disruption. The sale of Texas to Mexico would trigger another war for independence, and, I am certain, there are plenty of Texans who would embrace the opportunity to shoot some Mexicans

On a more serious note, 60% of gasoline refining and 75% of natural gas production are in Texas. But hey, wouldn't that be just the thing to *encourage* congress to allow domestic drilling?

If a state is going to be sold I vote for California. In fact, we should just give it away to anyone who'll assume its debt.

[Bill Moore]

Mark, thanks for setting the record straight on Texas not purchased from Mexico. Off topic, but reminded me of some fellows I went to a seminar with at Texas A&M. Flew to Houston to ride up with some company folks from there. One fellow kept up with yankee this and yankee that, (I'm from New Mexico), that I finally started calling him an easterner. Told him that my grandpa lost both of his grandpa's in the war, and asked about his family history. He of course took offense, but kept being a bore. I finally asked him who came to the aid of the Texans, after the Mexicans whipped their butt at that church in San Antonio? As I recall, it was yankee's, he was livid, but toned down his bravado. The yankee's liberated Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, and California from Mexico, and the war provided real experience for the future leaders of the war between the states, our most devastating war.

[Mark Ingram]

Originally Posted by Bill Moore

Mark, thanks for setting the record straight on Texas not purchased from Mexico. Off topic, but reminded me of some fellows I went to a seminar with at Texas A&M. Flew to Houston to ride up with some company folks from there. One fellow kept up with yankee this and yankee that, (I'm from New Mexico), that I finally started calling him an easterner. Told him that my grandpa lost both of his grandpa's in the war, and asked about his family history. He of course took offense, but kept being a bore. I finally asked him who came to the aid of the Texans, after the Mexicans whipped their butt at that church in San Antonio? As I recall, it was yankee's, he was livid, but toned down his bravado. The yankee's liberated Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Nevada, and California from Mexico, and the war provided real experience for the future leaders of the war between the states, our most devastating war.

Bill,

I apologize on bahalf of all native Texans. Unfortunately, some of us are a little insecure and feel the need to be in your face about it all the time.

I remember meeting a grandmotherly person about 25 years ago who shared with me that her slave-owning grandfather never new that 'damnYankee' was actually two words!

[Steve A.]

Originally Posted by Mark Ingram

Except that Texas wasn't purchased from Mexico (or anyone else, for that matter). But Mexican citizens are taking over here so the transition to Mexican rule will cause minimal disruption. The sale of Texas to Mexico would trigger another war for independence, and, I am certain, there are plenty of Texans who would embrace the opportunity to shoot some Mexicans

On a more serious note, 60% of gasoline refining and 75% of natural gas production are in Texas. But hey, wouldn't that be just the thing to *encourage* congress to allow domestic drilling?

If a state is going to be sold I vote for California. In fact, we should just give it away to anyone who'll assume its debt.

I'd agree with you about California but it is my impression living here that Mexico has already reclaimed it.

BTW when I proposed that we sell Texas back to Mexico, I was not suggesting that we had bought Texas from Mexico; it is very common to sell back property to the original owner which had been stolen or otherwise acquired without a properly notarized bill of sale. (Blackmail and extortion are such ugly words- I prefer to call the practice "creative financing" on my own income tax forms! )

Texans should look at the bright side of this proposal- they could make big money smuggling drugs and illegal aliens into America!

Steve Ahola

P.S. Actually there is only one Texan that I would like to see being sold down the river to Mexico... no offense was intended towards all of the other Texans!

[Mark Ingram]

Originally Posted by Steve A.

I'd agree with you about California but it is my impression living here that Mexico has already reclaimed it.

BTW when I proposed that we sell Texas back to Mexico, I was not suggesting that we had bought Texas from Mexico; it is very common to sell back property to the original owner which had been stolen or otherwise acquired without a properly notarized bill of sale. (Blackmail and extortion are such ugly words- I prefer to call the practice "creative financing" on my own income tax forms! )

Texans should look at the bright side of this proposal- they could make big money smuggling drugs and illegal aliens into America!

Steve Ahola

P.S. Actually there is only one Texan that I would like to see being sold down the river to Mexico... no offense was intended towards all of the other Texans!

For the record: W was actually born in New Haven, Connecticut.

For some of my fellow Texans, folks born north of the Mason-Dixon line are called Yankees. The ones who come south for vacation, etc., are called Damn Yankees, and those sorry wastes of oxygen who actually live down here are God-Damn Yankees. (Places that weren't states by 1861 are exempted from this classification exercise. ) So which category do you suppose W fits into?

But I kind of like that idea about getting rich smuggling drugs in... that's a real growth market!

I have heard recently that the Mexican drug cartels are supplementing their income by taking money under the table from the US gov to stop illegals from crossing. "Stop those people and we'll look the other way when those bales of pot get trucked north."

[Steve A.]

Originally Posted by Mark Ingram

For the record: W was actually born in New Haven, Connecticut.

For some of my fellow Texans, folks born north of the Mason-Dixon line are called Yankees. The ones who come south for vacation, etc., are called Damn Yankees, and those sorry wastes of oxygen who actually live down here are God-Damn Yankees. (Places that weren't states by 1861 are exempted from this classification exercise. ) So which category do you suppose W fits into?..."

Well, I was born in a hospital but as far as I can tell that does not make me a doctor...

Yes, George W. Bush was born in New Haven, Connecticut but that was while his father was a student at Yale; they moved to Texas where his father started working in the oil industry before he was 2 and by all accounts he was raised in Texas.

So if you Texans are trying to disown him, you will have to do better than that! Although I certainly can't blame you for trying...

Steve Ahola

[Mark Ingram]

Originally Posted by Steve A.

Well, I was born in a hospital but as far as I can tell that does not make me a doctor...

Yes, George W. Bush was born in New Haven, Connecticut but that was while his father was a student at Yale; they moved to Texas where his father started working in the oil industry before he was 2 and by all accounts he was raised in Texas.

So if you Texans are trying to disown him, you will have to do better than that! Although I certainly can't blame you for trying...

Steve Ahola

Similarly:
The fact that you hang out in a hospital also does not make you a doctor.

However, being born in Texas *does* make you a Texan and being born in Connecticut,... Well, you get the picture.

[hasserl]

Me thinks you're too harsh on the Prez, Steve. I certainly have some deep differences with some of the man's policies, such as his latest move to bail out the UAW, ooops, I mean the auto companies. But things could have been much worse. Just think about it, we could have ended up with Al Gore or even John Kerry. Although, now that I think about it, maybe Gore would have done less damage as President than he has running around the world (spewing tons of CO2 in the process) spreading his gospel of Global Warming, resulting in increased acceptance of the religion of environmentalism. The pain and suffering we endure from that may be more long lasting than any damage he might have done as President. So, maybe it would have been better in the long run had he been allowed to steal the election in Florida (as Al Franken appears to be doing in MN). Although, Bush did get some good justice's appointed to the top court, which will be great for the country over the long term, and that is probably the best thing he has done in his presidency. Not something that is very glamorous, but something that is extremely important in the long run.

As for how history judges Bush II, check out this article: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=acJBjLS7oKAc I tend to agree with most of it. I think he will be judged kindly, especially should Iraq remain stable and the world sees long term reduction in Muslim terrorism. Bush will be given credit for starting the roll back of a movement that started long before his term in office.

So, you don't like him personally, you don't like his looks and he reminds you of guys in college that you hated. I say that's more of a personal problem for you than true issues with Bush.

[bluesman60]

i agree with everything you said but if you can get a crown for 1500.oo i want the name of your dentist.

[Carlsoti]

Originally Posted by Enzo

Only around the edges. Communism is where the state owns. Just how many industries - better said, what percentage of industry/commerce is owned by the state in the USA?

It's actually just the opposite. How many industries own what parts of the government?

[Mark Ingram]

Originally Posted by hasserl

maybe Gore would have done less damage as President than he has running around the world (spewing tons of CO2 in the process) spreading his gospel of Global Warming, resulting in increased acceptance of the religion of environmentalism.

Hasn't Gore become a *BILLIONAIRE* preaching global warming (as the earth's temperature has dropped both of the last two years!)? We should all be so green!

And we should all apologize to all those tele-evangelists. At least God is not disproven by weather satellite.

[Steve A.]

Originally Posted by hasserl

... So, you don't like him personally, you don't like his looks and he reminds you of guys in college that you hated. I say that's more of a personal problem for you than true issues with Bush.

We will see what history books have to say about him in 50 or 100 years. There are plenty of people that I personally do not like although I still might have much respect for them professionally or otherwise. Bush was not one of them.

[Steve A.]

Originally Posted by bluesman60

I agree with everything you said but if you can get a crown for 1500.00 I want the name of your dentist.

I'm not sure what I can do about a crown but I could get you a seat in the Senate for $1,000 cash!

Steve Ahola