Les Paul Jimmy Page wiring with 42 sounds

[Borsanova]

Hello again,

The people from the old Ampage forum already know this thread about my improvements for the famous Jimmy Page wiring.
I'll post some of the more interesting parts of the old discussion later, to illustrate the advantages.
For now there is just the most important news: I've finally come up with a drawing!

So here it is:

[Borsanova]

The attachment works and looks good. I think it's right, but maybe someone can check it.
If you have any questions, post them and I'll try to answer them. But I look around maybe once a week. So please be patient.
As regards the old thread with the explanations, it's really huge and I'd like to edit the more interesting parts. But that will take some time. In the meantime, if you just can't wait to get more information, here is the link to the old forum on Firebottle.com:

http://www.firebottle.com/fireforum/...um=gt&enter=go

Regards,

Peter

[Richard]

Thanks for waiting until I was done with my SG &*%%#!!
Pretty cool, actually. I currently have a series/parallel switch, taps for each of the pickups and a tone switch. The tone switch switches in a cap to preserve high end when I back off the volume or grounds it like a tone knob on 0. I was hoping that the "dark" setting would roll off the highs as I roll back the volume, but it pretty consistent at all levels. I'll have to check your scheme out, I can probably make some improvements in mine.

[Borsanova]

Originally Posted by Richard

Thanks for waiting until I was done with my SG &*%%#!!
Pretty cool, actually. I currently have a series/parallel switch, taps for each of the pickups and a tone switch. The tone switch switches in a cap to preserve high end when I back off the volume or grounds it like a tone knob on 0. I was hoping that the "dark" setting would roll off the highs as I roll back the volume, but it pretty consistent at all levels. I'll have to check your scheme out, I can probably make some improvements in mine.

Thanks for your comment. I'm sorry that my post came late for your mod. I guess we all have to make our experiences and it is a good idea not to start with your main axe. I did my first mod on my red Ibanez 345 and started regretting my errors after learning all about the benefits of my Les Paul JP 20-Dual. I took me over a year and another mod (on my DeArmond T-400), before realizing that I had in fact 42 different sounds at hand, some of which completely unknown to the guitar world.
Now I'm seriously considering rewiring my 345 (which has the serial wiring with the neck first and the bridge in second position), but unfortunately working inside a semi-acoustic is actually one of the hardest jobs you can imagine.

In the following I've posted a few arguments why my design is so much better than Jimmy original:

Here is my improved version of Jimmy Page's Les Paul. I call it the Les Paul Twenty-Dual.

It has 22 different sounds, one more than Jimmy's, since it includes also a dual sound for the bridge pickup (in my case a Duncan JB) with parallel wiring for both coils instead of serial.

Moreover I eliminated the muted positions on Gibson's reissue and I moved the push/pull controls to a more rational configuration (Jimmy's original has the coil tap switches on the volume controls). On my guitar they are moved to the tone pots while the switches on the volume pots control serial and out-of-phase switching:

Here is what the four push-pull pots do:

The bridge volume control switches both pickups in serial mode, but only when the bridge pickup is selected. With the pickup selector in the middle or on the neck you only hear the neck pu.

The neck volume control switches the neck pu out of phase. It only works with both pickups selected, that is with the pickup selector in the middle position or, when serial mode is selected, with the pickup selector in the bridge position.

The bridge tone control switches the bridge pickup from serial humbucker to parallel (Dual sound).

The neck tone control switches the neck pickup to single coil and, when the bridge tone control is pulled, it also switches the bridge pickup to single coil.


Why I recombined the push/pull pots?

I think my configuration is much more rational, because it puts each switch exactly where you would search and eventually miss it on a standard guitar. Here are my arguments for each new combination.

Tone controls and coil tap:
Usually guitarists use their tone controls to muffle their sound and that's what they do best. But almost as often you touch the same controls hoping to find some space for brightening your sound. How many times have you been frustrated, finding that the tone control was already at ten? On my Les Paul you have the solution immediately at hands: just pull your switch for dual sound or coil tap and the sound will become brighter.

Bridge volume and serial:
Serial wiring of two pickups brings the highest volume and distortion. Usually you need it when you're playing solo, that is you're already playing your bridge pickup and often you need more volume to come up against the other instruments. When you reach down to the volume knob and find you're already at ten, a little pull can now provide the ultimate boost you were looking for.

Neck volume and out-of-phase:
The out-of-phase switch should in any case be combined with a volume control, because only the latter permit to control the equilibrium between the two signals. By differentiating the volume of each pickup you can mix the signals and control how much of the lower frequencies will be cancelled. Often you will find that you pull your out-of-phase switch and that your sounds becomes much thinner than you expected. In this case you got your fingers already where it counts. Simply reduce your neck volume from ten to eight and you'll hear how your sound becomes thicker again.

Reassuming in the simplest manner, my guitar has one push/pull switch that makes the sound fatter (the bridge volume) and three push/pull switches that make it thinner. This makes it really easy to handle and if you remember these main rules it is almost impossible to get lost between the switching possibilities (which is not so improbable on many modded Stratocasters or on a Brian May Red Special).


How I got to my Twenty-Dual wiring?

I had already designed my 21 mode wiring scheme, when I decided to try and change the bridge pickup mod from single coil to parallel (Dual sound). It is not too difficult and when I finished it, I started to study hum-cancelling effects of the combined modes. So I realized that it wasn't very smart to combine a parallel humbucker with a single coil, since this would never be hum-cancelling. Then my eyes fell on the neck tone pot which had still an unused pole and I thought I could use this to switch the bridge pickup to single coil when combined with the neck single coil. That's it.

Now I got 16 two-pickup combinations (like Jimmy's), and six one-pickup modes (one more than Jimmy):

neck humbucker
neck adjustable coil
neck stud coil
bridge adjustable coil
bridge parallel coils (dual sound)
bridge humbucker

The pickup wirings in combination are always:

parallel in phase
parallel out of phase
serial in phase
serial out of phase

all four with four pickup combinations:

both humbuckers
neck single coil and bridge humbucker
neck humbucker and bridge dual (or parallel) coils
both single coils

If you do it right, three of these combinations will always be hum-cancelling and only the second one is not. That makes up for a total of 15 hum-cancelling sounds and only 7 that aren't, a much better ratio than on Jimmy's guitar which has only 10 hum-cancelling sounds.

[Steve A.]

Borsanova:

Reconfiguring the treble coil-cut switch is a great idea, since the stock design uses only half of the switch.

As for putting the coil cut switches on the tone controls, that is how it was done with the Schector Superock harness (which also doesn't have the mute position, which I consider to be a design flaw in the Gibson):


http://www.blueguitar.org/new/schem/...ck_harness.pdf

Perhaps on the historians here can fill us in as to what came first: the JP Gibson or the Schector Superock?

Steve Ahola

[Borsanova]

Originally Posted by Steve A.

As for putting the coil cut switches on the tone controls, that is how it was done with the Schector Superock harness.

Steve Ahola

Thanks Steve, that is a very interesting wiring. As regards the switches' positions, it is quite similar (only the functions on the two volume controls are inverted). One major downfall of the Schector design (besides missing dual sound) is the fact that they hooked up in series first the neck and then the bridge pickup. This makes you lose what I consider the most usefull feature in my design. I called it the 1 1/2 humbucker (I'm really not pleased with this denomination, maybe someone can suggest a better name?), that is the possibility to activate a tone control between the two pickups to coil tap the trebles part of the neck pickup and, due to this, play bass frequencies with double humbucker and the trebles with the bridge pickup alone. It's like one of those old split pickup designs from Burns (allowing to play the upper strings on one circuit and the lower on another), but better and it get's you the original Slash sounds even on a small Fender amp. Btw, how does "broadbucker" sound to your ears as a new name for this configuration? I've described the effect at the very end of the old thread, but it was so long that probably noone ever arrived at reading it; one of these days I'll go and copy it here. I wouldn't wanna do without that feature anymore, but it could be easily corrected in the Schector design (simply think "bridge/lead" everytime the Schector instructions read "neck/rhythm" and vice versa!).

However what I liked most in the Schector wiring was the idea how they bypassed the pickup selector when in serial mode. Studying the situation on my guitar, I first thought it was impossible to implement this feature, but then I've realized that the functions of the left side of my serial switch can easily be transferred to the right side without any loss, thus liberating the necessary space for a bypass. Maybe tomorrow I'll try to correct my schematic in order to implement this feature.
I'm still a bit in doubt, whether this design is better than mine. Actually when I'm in serial mode I almost never use the pickup selector and thus I think I'll come to the conclusion that it's useful. Especially since the bypass allows to decide in advance your pickup choice for when you're returning to parallel mode. Moreover it allows to directly switch from parallel out of phase to serial out of phase. Well, the more I think of it, the more I'm convinced, since I can see only advantages! Thanks again for that great inspiration!

[Borsanova]

I've redesigned my schematic and here it comes. In the process I've also cleaned up and rationalized my drawing, so don't panic if it presents several changes. Everything is still the same except for the pickup selector bypass in serial mode.
Now I can't wait to implement the new feature on my guitar.

Here's the new configuration of the controls:

BV : Pulling out the bridge volume control puts both pickups in serial mode and bypasses the selector switch. Thus both pickups will be in series with the selector switch in any position. In this position the bridge volume and tone control work regularly as master controls, while the neck tone control works like a treble booster, brightening up and broadening the sound.

NV : The neck volume pot switch puts the neck pickup out of phase. The effect is audible when both pickups are selected, that is in serial mode or, when the guitar is in parallel mode, with the pickup selector in the middle position. Morevover, when the neck pickup is in single coil mode, this switch selects which coil will be on (pushed=adjustable coil, pulled=stud coil).

BT : Pulling the bridge tone pot switches the bridge pickup from serial humbucker to parallel (dual sound) or, when the neck tone control is pulled too, to single coil.

NV : The neck tone pot switches the neck pickup to single coil and, when the bridge tone control is pulled, it also switches the bridge pickup to single coil.

Btw. I've just noticed that this thread has already got 18 five star ratings. Thanks everybody for voting!

[Borsanova]

I have just finished the necessary changes on my guitar to implement the serial bypass and everything works as it should. I tried it out and, though I still have to get used to it, it's already a big improvement to switching flexibility.

[Borsanova]

Here are my last upgrades to the Les Paul Jimmy Page design. Take notice that I have introduced several improvements and that there are now two different versions of this guitar with differing use of the volume and tone controls in series mode.

[Guitarpicker7]

Great work, however, I own a double neck 12/6, similar to Jimmy's,
and was wondering if I would just need to ... double your drawing and wire it to the toggle for choosing upper or lower necks (or mid for both)? Mine needs new pots too, so would appreciate your suggestion. Thanks for any tips on this matter.

[Baxthorpe]

Well ... my memory says that before either the Jimmy Page LP or the Schecter SuperRock, there was the Yamaha SG2000 around 1978 ... and the souped up version they made for Mr Santana, which was only available as a very Limited Edition. As far as I am aware, the Yamaha SG range were the first guitars marketed with pp pots.

[Guitarpicker7]

Originally Posted by Borsanova

Here are my last upgrades to the Les Paul Jimmy Page design. Take notice that I have introduced several improvements and that there are now two different versions of this guitar with differing use of the volume and tone controls in series mode.

Could someone please make a drawing how this would be for the 12/6 string model??? THank you. I'd appreciate it. TG

[guitarboyled]

Did anyone else try this wiring?

[Telecasterking]

Originally Posted by Steve A.

Borsanova:

Reconfiguring the treble coil-cut switch is a great idea, since the stock design uses only half of the switch.

As for putting the coil cut switches on the tone controls, that is how it was done with the Schector Superock harness (which also doesn't have the mute position, which I consider to be a design flaw in the Gibson):


http://www.blueguitar.org/new/schem/...ck_harness.pdf

Perhaps on the historians here can fill us in as to what came first: the JP Gibson or the Schector Superock?

Steve Ahola

Excuse my ignorance, I'm a newbie, but what do you mean by 'the mute positon'?

[scottyf73]

Howdy,
i have struck onto this thread after trying to wire up the jimmy page style wiring on my black 82 LP Custom clone by greco.

i too found the problem of the one mute position with the diagram on the seym dunc web site. i think it was when the serial p/p (Rhythm - tone) was engaged and the selector sw was in the bridge or middle position.

anyhow, i started over and have used the schecter superrock thing as drawn by steve A. thanks for the available use of such.

however i cant get the coil cut on the rhythm tone and in fact as soon as i engage the p/p the rhythm humbucker becomes mute. i have tried both wiring setups for this p/p pot but neither seem to work. it may well be my wiring so i will go back & re-look at it now to confirm i have wired it correctly as per the diagram.

has anybody else struck this problem with super-rock harness?

also, i have used 2 x 500k vol's & 2 x 250k tones.
would this present any problems with the performance of the humbuckers.

so the other option which i will attempt is the 22 sounds version as listed here. cheers & thanks for this thread. it is very useful & thanks for sharing the knowledge. will let you know how i go...

[scottyf73]

Howdy,
i have struck onto this thread after trying to wire up the jimmy page style wiring on my black 82 LP Custom clone by greco.

i too found the problem of the one mute position with the diagram on the seym dunc web site. i think it was when the serial p/p (Rhythm - tone) was engaged and the selector sw was in the bridge or middle position.

anyhow, i started over and have used the schecter superrock thing as drawn by steve A. thanks for the available use of such.

however i cant get the coil cut on the rhythm tone and in fact as soon as i engage the p/p the rhythm humbucker becomes mute. i have tried both wiring setups for this p/p pot but neither seem to work. it may well be my wiring so i will go back & re-look at it now to confirm i have wired it correctly as per the diagram.

has anybody else struck this problem with super-rock harness?

also, i have used 2 x 500k vol's & 2 x 250k tones.
would this present any problems with the performance of the humbuckers.

so the other option which i will attempt is the 22 sounds version as listed here. cheers & thanks for this thread. it is very useful & thanks for sharing the knowledge. will let you know how i go...

[13eastie]

I'm very tempted to implement this mod on my 1980 LP Custom.

Which commercially available pickups will give me the closest (reasonably priced) approximation to Jimmy's tone?

Thanks for any answers...

[telemonster]

does this fit in the 'because i can' category?

i mean... 22 sounds, ffs!

and how many will we use? 5 or so...?

but more guitars, i say!

[scottyf73]

OK I sorted out the problem with the coil cut on the lead p/up. easy fix really. just made the p/p pot do a simple coil cut - grounding out two h/b serial connecting wires...

also, for the fella about the jimmy page sound. .. not sure on specific p/ups but i imagine the les pauls he used were probably just stock gibson p/ups of the late 50's / early 60's. maybe a zeppelin fanatic would be able to confirm this??? there probably werent many if any aftermarket p/up available at that time. i wonder if he had some hotter over wound versions made from gibson though.

i do reckon he used the out of phase sounds a bit. again i am sure a zeppelin nut would know better than my guesses tho...

i have installed this 22 mod thing with Lace Hemi-bucker p/ups.

overall the sounds are very stock rock really but the out-of-phase is cool and the real useful sounds & tones come from varying the volume controls when obviously in the middle position of the selector swiitch. so keeping the rhythm at 10 and turning the lead vol down to 2 or 3 and maybe even using the coil cut. i have found that these sounds can emulate a sound similar to knopflers brothers in arms for example.

keep rockin'

[13eastie]

Originally Posted by scottyf73

also, for the fella about the jimmy page sound. .. not sure on specific p/ups but i imagine the les pauls he used were probably just stock gibson p/ups of the late 50's / early 60's. maybe a zeppelin fanatic would be able to confirm this??? there probably werent many if any aftermarket p/up available at that time. i wonder if he had some hotter over wound versions made from gibson though.

I'm not sure whether it was my post you were responding to here, but pickup selection would seem to me to be a pretty crucial part of the mod if you are using it to reproduce JP's sound.

To this end, I'm planning to go with Burstbuckers - I'm yet to compare them to the stock pickups on my Custom, but the literature and some of the reviews I've uncovered would seem to suggest these are a pretty good approximation of the '59 stock sound.

Can anyone comment on this?

[telemoxy]

Originally Posted by 13eastie

I'm not sure whether it was my post you were responding to here, but pickup selection would seem to me to be a pretty crucial part of the mod if you are using it to reproduce JP's sound.

To this end, I'm planning to go with Burstbuckers - I'm yet to compare them to the stock pickups on my Custom, but the literature and some of the reviews I've uncovered would seem to suggest these are a pretty good approximation of the '59 stock sound.

Can anyone comment on this?

Aren't the '57 Classics the pickups with a 50s sound? I thought the Burstbuckers were hotter.

[Marty]

Originally Posted by guitarboyled

Did anyone else try this wiring?

I just finished. This was my first stab at modifying the electronics in a guitar. I had to learn a few things before I started the mod. Even so, there is a lot of fine wiring going on and I got a bit discombobulated in the process. Right now the mod works but I'm trying to track down a humming problem. I think that if I had to do it over again, I would try the standard mod first. The diagrams available for it are a lot clearer for the beginner tinkerer. Good luck.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by telemoxy

Aren't the '57 Classics the pickups with a 50s sound? I thought the Burstbuckers were hotter.

They are both PAF copies. The Burstbuckers are more random wound to simulate hand winding, and the '57 Classics are machine wound.

Burstbucker

BurstBucker pickups from Gibson Gear now give guitarists a choice of three replica sounds from Gibson's original "Patent Applied For" pickups - the pickups that give the '59 Les Paul Standard its legendary sound. The three BurstBuckers - all with unpolished magnets and non-potted coils, like the originals - represent the variations found among vintage Gibson humbuckers.

The initial demand for Patent Applied For replica pickups came from Japanese collectors, and the BurstBucker was offered exclusively in Japan beginning in 1996. By 1999 word has spread of the unique replica tones produced by BurstBuckers. Gibson USA put the first BurstBuckers on a production model with the Gary Moore Signature Les Paul in the Summer of 2000, and Gibson's Custom division then equipped the Class 5 Les Paul, Custom Authentic '68 Les Paul Custom and Custom Authentic '58 Les Paul Standard models with BurstBuckers.

The variations in pickup output and tone came from inconsistencies in winding the bobbins, a result of the lack of automatic shutoffs on Gibson's winding machines in the late 1950s. Seth Lover, who invented the humbucker, always said they wound the bobbins "until they were full," and original examples suggest that employees stopped the winding machines after the counter reached approximately 5000 turns. When the two coils in a pickup have a different number of turns, that variation puts a little "edge" or "bite" on the classic humbucker sound. That's the sound BurstBuckers replicate. (The "creamy" sound that Gibson's '57 Classics replicate comes from equal coil windings.) Gibson then carries the replication process two steps farther, with unpolished Alnico II magnets and no wax-potting of the coils, just like the originals.

The Burstbucker 1 is underwound, and the Burstbucker 3 is overwound. The '57 Classic Plus is overwound.

The Burstbucker Pro has an Alnico V magnet and is wax potted, while the others are Alnico II and not wax potted.

The question is who came up with the stupid name "Burstbucker"? That makes it sound like a hot pickup.

[MusicMan2U]

Newb here... hello everyone.

The 59' Les Paul Standard which Page used was equipped with the standard PAF Humbucker on the neck, but with the newly designed "Burstbucker" (4 conductor) in the Bridge position for coil tapping.
And yes, I am a big Zep fan I suppose since I am about to do the same mod to my own Epi LP.

As for current PUPs, I chose the Seymour-Duncan hod-rodded pickup set since Gibson has chosen not to sell that same JP Burstbucker to anyone who doesn't actually already own that Limited edition guitar! <fooey on them> The SDs are well used for just this purpose as I understand it, so Gibson just shot themselves in the foot as far as I'm concerned.

Good luck to you, hope this helped.

[David Schwab]

You can easily rewire a Burstbucker for 4 wire operation. But why bother? The Duncans are better pickups anyway.

[MusicMan2U]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

You can easily rewire a Burstbucker for 4 wire operation. But why bother? The Duncans are better pickups anyway.

Hello David.

I have heard the same thing about being able to re-wire the burstbuckers before, but never heard how. Do you know how? Or maybe have a link or two to where it's shown?
That would be appreciated.

I currently have the "Alnico Classic" Humbuckers installed on my Epi LP. These are supposed to approximate the Gibson 498T (bridge) and 490R (neck).
According to Gibson's site: All factory installed pickups come as 2 conductor, and only by purchasing their factory replacements, can one acquire the 4 conductor ones, excluding the burstbuckers.

Perhaps you could tell me: Is this so? And is there a way to re-wire these factory installed Alnico Classics to 4 conductor?

Thanks.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by MusicMan2U

Perhaps you could tell me: Is this so? And is there a way to re-wire these factory installed Alnico Classics to 4 conductor?

I guess it would make sense that they don't put 4/C wiring in the factory guitars, because it's not needed. Saves them on the cost of the wire.

It's not hard to do, but you have to be careful not to break anything.

You just remove the baseplate by unscrewing the four brass screws. Made note of which way the magnet is in, incase it comes loose.

Then you just follow what ever wiring chart you want. If you want the Gibson color code, follow this:

http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/Elec.../i-gibson.html

The two wires that are soldered together are disconnected and connect to the green and white wires. The coil that went to the hot becomes the red/white coil, and the other coil is the black/green coil.

The bare wire/shield of the 4 conductor cable connects to the baseplate.

Then you put it back together.

You just need to take you time and be careful. It's tricky getting the wires to fit in there.

[MusicMan2U]

Well that's a load of good information David... thank you.
My aim is to adapt the "Jimmy Page Set-up", which of course will require switching out the B-PuP. And since I want to save money where I can, I just figured I could retain the N-PuP and tap it, while switching to a SD on the bridge. It seems that Page did the same thing except he used a "Burstbucker" instead. My set-up will have 4 push-pull pots rather than just the 2 he used.
Really enjoyed the links you posted, and noted you are a luthier; good to know.

Thanks for the tips. I'll let you know how it progresses.

[MusicMan2U]

Well Folks, there it is! I accomplished it in just two days, and it only took that long because I dawdled!

[starekase502123]

ok call me stupid but i wanna double check on the pickup labeling am i right that
adjust pol
1 coil start 5 coil start
2 coil finsish 6 coil finish
slug poles
4 coil start 8 coil start
3 coil finish 7 coil finish

so with seymour duncan pickups
bridge neck
1 green 8green
2 red 7 red
3 white 6 white
4black 5 black

[giangui]

Originally Posted by Borsanova

Here are my last upgrades to the Les Paul Jimmy Page design. Take notice that I have introduced several improvements and that there are now two different versions of this guitar with differing use of the volume and tone controls in series mode.

Well, I have recently completed and tried on stage my les paul twentydual master (PU are SD alnico II on neck and SD pearly gates on bridge) and I can only say

BORSANOVA YOU ARE A GENIUS!
Borsanova sei un genio

Giangui

[rosstiger]

hi,
i have the standard jimmy page wiring installed in my les paul, but are tempted to try the 22 wiring. didn´t quite get the difference between the master and the mix version (as well as the 1&1/2 humbucker) - could somebody pls. explain? did somebody else rewire his guitar to one of the two "22 wirings"?
thanks, ross

[Stealth]

All I can say is god forbid someone makes a variant of this for a twin-pickup, dual-coil bass. This could be a killer tone switcher.

[giangui]

Originally Posted by rosstiger

hi,
i have the standard jimmy page wiring installed in my les paul, but are tempted to try the 22 wiring. didn´t quite get the difference between the master and the mix version (as well as the 1&1/2 humbucker) - could somebody pls. explain? did somebody else rewire his guitar to one of the two "22 wirings"?
thanks, ross

Hi Ross,
I think the difference is that with the master version (as I have) during serial you have just one volume (the bridge) working for both PU. It's like a big PU. With the mix version each volume pot works properly.
By saying the 1&1/2 humbucker you mean the dual sound, do you? If yes I can say that is a sound in the middle between single coil and humbucker. For example on overdrived sound it is more powerful and rich in harmonics than a single coil but thinner and less aggressive than humbucker. I really like that mode.

[tedmich]

strictly my opinion here but guitar controls are largely useless to me; a responsive tube amp is where the sound variations lie. I remember seeing an early 70"s guitar with tiny dual 7 band eq slider pots...silly. And 44 sounds? good luck finding any you want when you want it... how about this setup?

>150 combinations w/ 2 HBs....
>1000 with 3/HBs


Guitar Max Pickup Control System


silly...