Mr Obama, do us all a favor, please......

[bob p]

Here's what's left of the movie theatre where i went to see "The Empire Strikes Back."



even the city's main US Post Office, a black and while marble building, lies in ruins. here's what's left on a wall inside.



not even the churches escaped destruction. here's whats left of the City Methodist Church. its become a must-see destination among the world's urban explorers:






most businesses have closed. on Broadway, the city's main street, block after block after block of buildings are 100% boarded up and abandoned. commercial buildings that aren't boarded up have roofs and walls that have collapsed after the fires. no type of building has been spared; high-rise hotels. churches. factories. theatres. sports stadiums.

driving around town the traffic lights don't work, and what is left of the roads is nothing but potholes. you have to drive through the place at your own risk. packs of wild dogs are a common sight. a friend of mine who is on the police force there had his car broken into while it was parked in front of the station. people here kill one another for their sneakers. no wonder its the murder capitol of the world.

No, I don't have to use my imagination -- I've lived it. I've seen what comes from squandering taxpayer dollars on corrupt administrations, and from spending uncountable sums of tax dollars subsidizing the empty shell of a manufacturing economy that's long since been exported overseas.

our money is being wasted.

[hasserl]

Guys, elections have consequences. tommy d in Detroit is bitter about the sorry state of things in Michigan. The example of Gary Indiana. Both have populaces that have voted solidly Democrat for decades. Well, they got what they wanted. The sorry state of existence in those areas is directly attributable to the policies set forth by the elected leaders in those areas. You want it, you got it. Don't cry about it now. It's what you wanted, now suck it up and enjoy your poverty and destitution.

We're going thru it now in California. The sleep walking populace here has voted solidly Democrat for a couple of decades now, and the effects of the policies they have put forth are piling up, or as the Reverend Wright would put it, the chickens are coming home to roost. We've done it to ourselves, and we're going to have to pay the price for our stupidity.

Now the entire nation is at risk. That is what I am pointing out. Policies being enacted, and policies being proposed right now, are leading to dismal economic times. We all well suffer. And as we suffer the rest of the world suffers too, because the US is the economic engine that has driven the rest of the world for many decades.

We've seen the dismal economics in Europe resulting from the leftist agenda of the political leaders there, eyt we don't learn from their mistakes and seem determined to make those mistakes ourselves.

I attributed it to ignorance, Bob P puts a much more sinister twist to it. In Bob's scenario the destruction of the economy is being done on purpose, to drive us to despair, so that we will allow radical changes to our political structure. I don't know if he is right, but in either case, be it ignorance or deceit, we're screwed in a major way. We're looking at years of economic misery as the best case alternative to permanent poverty and misery. Of course our leaders will live just fine and high on the hog as we carry them along on our backs, as Obama is doing now with his lavish dinners and parties at the Whitehouse: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php...show_article=1

[Mark Hammer]

Bob,

That is just....so.....sad. I find it inconceivable that a person could live somewhere like that, pass it on the way to school every day, and even begin to conceive of having any hope. This kind of stuff just gets to me. As do the last 2 verses of Bruce Springsteen's most patriotic song ever: "My Hometown":


Now Main Street's whitewashed windows and vacant stores
Seems like there ain't nobody wants to come down here no more
They're closing down the textile mill across the railroad tracks
Foreman says these jobs are going boys and they ain't coming back to your hometown
Your hometown
Your hometown
Your hometown

Last night me and Kate we laid in bed
talking about getting out
Packing up our bags maybe heading south
I'm thirty-five, we got a boy of our own now
Last night I sat him up behind the wheel and said son take a good look around, this is your hometown
this is your hometown


Oh man, after the pictures and lyric search, I'm gettin' a little choked up here.

For me, among the basic human rights is the right to remain in the place of your birth if you so choose. That people can be dispossessed from their hometown, that neighbourhoods, towns, cities, regions, can be so devastated as to not even exist anymore just rips me apart. Patriotism begins with a sense that "I come from some place that loved me, and I loved it back". And when the place you grew up implodes on itself, well, it's a bit like having your kids die before you....or maybe watching your kids' dreams die, which can sometimes be worse.

[hasserl]

Thank you Obama, you've remained somewhat quite, and even a little positive of late, and we've had a good run in the market for a few days now. Please, just keep quiet and let it continue. Set aside your illusions of grandeur and plans for overturn of free market capitalism and let the system work so we can start the recovery process. You've got enough to do just getting your cabinet filled out with democrats that haven't cheated on their taxes, and keeping Joe Biden from saying something else stupid. Just concentrate on that, and if you really want to help, rescind the "stimulous" bill and cancel any planned tax hikes. In fact, if you truly want to see the economy get back into positive growth, and the market regain its position, give a two year vacation on corporate income tax and capitol gains taxes. Heck, give a two year vacation on payroll taxes, Social Security and Medicare are already going to go bust, what's it matter if we speed it up a couple of years? The increase in economic activity will be worth it. I don't see where the Constitution provides for the fed govm't to run a ponzi scheme anyway.

[EffectsGuru]

Just don't go there... it makes you sound unintelligent, you can't blame Obama for the economy, he hasn't even been in office long enough to effect it! And no I did not vote for Obama, i voted for Ralph Nader... but I can say with certainty, that just about anyone will do a better job than the worst president the United States has ever seen... George W. Bush.

[EffectsGuru]

NO according to Republicans... they blame the president before and the president after for Bush's blunders! It's classic republican finger pointing... and yes, you have a right to comment on our US government when it effects you... and it does. I will vote for Ralph Nader every time he runs... both Republicans and Democrats voted for the bailouts (Ralph does not support that), both parties support the US continuing to be the WORLDS LARGEST military based economy (Ralph does not), we need to get corporate lobbyists out of the white house and model our government after the most successful countries in the world.. they are over in Europe... like Sweden, Norway, France, etc... they have a lot less capitalism and a bit more socialism... What does that mean? NO it doesn't mean communism! It means Living wages (france has the equivalent of $11.50 per hour minimum wages in american dollar equivalent), it means health care for all, it means education all the way through college for all, and it means lower taxes with more for your money, and it means getting back to what really makes us a wealthy country... Industry. For those who don't know what socialism is... let me explain... it IS NOT communism... as so many morons think! There is a spectrum... on one end is capitalism, on the other is socialism... neither in their extreme from are good! SOCIALISM refers to a broad set of economic theories of social organization advocating public or state ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equality for all individuals, with a fair or egalitarian method of compensation. Modern socialism originated in the late 19th-century intellectual and working class political movement that criticized the effects of industrialization and private ownership on society. CAPITALISM is an economic system in which wealth, and the means of producing wealth, are privately owned and controlled rather than commonly, publicly, or state-owned and controlled. Through capitalism, the land, labor, and capital are owned, operated, and traded by private individuals either singly or jointly, and investments, distribution, income, production, pricing and supply of goods, commodities and services are determined by voluntary private decision in a market economy. ( those definitions are taken from wikipedia). Based on the most successful countries in the world the most beneficial form of government is a balance between the two... like the best rated countries in the world have... and the US isn't one of them... we are #34 in education worldwide, and #36 in health care worldwide, we are the only industrialized nation in the world without a health care plan for all its people. We have more debt than any other country, we spend more on military that the rest of the world combined! WE ARE THE WORLDS LARGEST MILITARY BASED ECONOMY... we have more people in prison than any other country, and it's growing every year... no one bothers to keep people from being sexually assaulted in prisons... they make jokes about it instead. We have news media, that is run by corporations that are affiliated with government officials, meaning that.. they will lie to you to make more money... so if you want truth, stick with sources that do not accept advertising , corporate or government funding, and have independent journalists if you want the truth! One source that comes to mind... Realnews.com (please check out, you can't be informed watching Fox, CBS, NBC, CNN, etc. because they are for sale, as is the United States.

- Nick Thompson ( a "REAL" Patroit!)

[Diablo]

The downfall of Gary IN was caused by a more basic problem than political corruption. It was simply the loss of manufacturing jobs in the area, mainly the elimination of around 50,000+ good-paying jobs at the steel mills in the area. If folks aren't working, they aren't making money, and can't maintain their homes. The loss of manufacturing jobs to overseas is the root cause of many of these problems. I don't believe that the US can maintain a good standard of living with only a service economy.

[Sweetfinger]

Hey, stock market's up and economists are saying we're on the way back up!

[Diablo]

Originally Posted by Sweetfinger

Hey, stock market's up and economists are saying we're on the way back up!

The steel mill I work for, has relit a couple of blast furnaces, because orders are picking up. However, to put it in perspective, steel capacity worldwide dropped to around 45% of the peak (compared to one year ago). With the recent uptick, worldwide capacity might be around 50%. Yes, the economy is improving.....but it's going to be a long steady climb to get back to where we were.

[reddart]

I think the market is going back down.

Without the factors that made it artificially high before (real estate values + too much easy credit, derivatives, etc), and high unemployment (and fear of job loss) stifling consumer spending, I think we are artificially high even now.

YMMV


Edit: Oh, and I don't think Obama has very much effect on whether the market goes up or down...the economic factors are much more than he (or anybody, except for maybe Bernanke, and even for him it is like piloting a cruise ship with a rubber rudder) has control over.

[bob p]

Originally Posted by Diablo

The downfall of Gary IN was caused by a more basic problem than political corruption. It was simply the loss of manufacturing jobs in the area, mainly the elimination of around 50,000+ good-paying jobs at the steel mills in the area. If folks aren't working, they aren't making money, and can't maintain their homes.

You've got the order of the events backwards. That's not what happened in Gary, Indiana. Gary Indiana is not Allentown Pennsylvania. The urban decay in the city of Gary began during the late 1960s, while the steel industry was still quite strong and employment was good in the area. The urban blight of Gary pre-dated the downturn in manufacturing that followed the 1973 Oil Crisis.

What happened in Gary was the result of politics. The politicians who took over in Gary ruined the city by failing to provide essential services, and the loss of essential services is what led employed people to move outside of the city limits. Families like mine and all of my neighbors were still employed by the manufacturing industry kept their jobs as they moved south to Merrillville or east to Portage and Hobart to escape the politicians who were destroying Gary. Everyone with good jobs and good businesses abandoned their homes to escape the disaster, and the escape was simple -- all that you had to do was move beyond the city limits and into a new jurisdiction and the problem was solved. Cities like Portage, Merrillville, Crown Point and Hobart continue to prosper while Gary has totally collapsed. The rest of Lake County had no significant manufacturing infrastructure like there was in Gary. These other cities prospered as bedroom communities when they became filled by people whose jobs were still in Gary's manufacturing industry.

Another interesting thing to note -- the steel infrastructure along the South Shore of Lake Michigan spans two counties -- Lake County to the west and Porter county to the east. When economic hard times fell on the steel industry, they equally effected the mills in both Lake and Porter counties. Its significant to note that the urban blight that took place in Gary never took place in the remainder of Lake County, and it never took place in the lake shore region of adjacent Porter county, which also had lakefront steel mills. The collapse of Gary, Indiana took place before the economic downturn, and even with the economic downturn that affected the entire Calumet Region, the urban blight was strictly limited to within the municipal boundaries of Gary, and did not occur elsewhere in the Region.

People who claim that Gary's downfall was related to an economic downturn and not to a political source are rather poor historians who lack a basic understanding of what actually happened.

[bob p]

Originally Posted by Mark Hammer

For me, among the basic human rights is the right to remain in the place of your birth if you so choose. That people can be dispossessed from their hometown, that neighbourhoods, towns, cities, regions, can be so devastated as to not even exist anymore just rips me apart. Patriotism begins with a sense that "I come from some place that loved me, and I loved it back". And when the place you grew up implodes on itself, well, it's a bit like having your kids die before you....or maybe watching your kids' dreams die, which can sometimes be worse.

Thanks, Mark. I share your feelings on this. I think that it is a great tragedy to lose your homeland, regardless of whether the cause may be an economic downturn, crime, corruption, or an all-out war. I feel a great sense of loss when I remember the beautiful, vibrant city that I grew up in, only to see what looks like a bombed out wasteland now. But then I watch the news and I see other people who are being displaced from their homes all over the world, and I think I need to stop feeling sorry for myself, because things could be much worse than they are.

[reddart]

One study rates [Gary] the second-most liberal city in the United States, behind Detroit: wikipedia

I think we have found the true cause of the despair.

[Enzo]

Well if Wiki says that then gosh darn it, it HAS to be true.

I love the "most liberal" label as it moves about. Various senators take turns as the most liberal, depending upon who needs to be a target. Now cities. Detroit? All those blue collar factory workers in Detroit do tend to vote Democrat, but really. COmpared to Boston?

[Diablo]

Originally Posted by reddart

I think we have found the true cause of the despair.

I don't know how they figure Gary is liberal. Is that a code word for being black? You don't have to look hard for the causes of despair....try very high unemployment and poverty.

[tubeswell]

A lot of good discussion going on. I think all politicians end up being bullshit artists - its sad but inevitable really. A lot of them are new to the job and nominally 'in-charge' of a whole heap of bureaucracy that they have no adequate personal understanding about - let alone reliable information, and they are scratching to understand what's going on at any given time - they have their speeches written by leaches who are employed to give things a positive spin, and so they end up coming across in public as polished bullshitters. (A key 'success' factor must be employing a good highly-networked team of spinners. Our last PM, Aunty Helen, had a team of excellent spinners for most of her time in office, and she was able to impart a general feeling of confidence that got her through 9 years in the top job. Whereas, the current PM is a bit of a twit and it shows in his poor grasp of communication).

Some politicians might sincerely believe that they want to do good, but that is delusional and I genuinely feel sorry for them.

Having said all that, in the end they all stand on a promise of being good representatives for someone or other, and they've got to take responsibility for the consequences of that sooner or later. What's a good honey-moon period? - when people start getting sick of rhetoric I suppose.

I think Mr Obama is well aware of the fine line he has to tread. You don't get to be elected into a top job without having pulled the right strings. (Just look at how GWya got elected the first time around). Whether Obama can weather the storm of being in office is another matter. Hillary must be enjoying a good private chuckle.

[reddart]

Originally Posted by Enzo

Well if Wiki says that then gosh darn it, it HAS to be true.

I love the "most liberal" label as it moves about. Various senators take turns as the most liberal, depending upon who needs to be a target. Now cities. Detroit? All those blue collar factory workers in Detroit do tend to vote Democrat, but really. COmpared to Boston?

Speaking of Detroit, I wonder why some parents are "afraid" of the message Obama will be giving in a televised speech to kids...is it all those neocon anti-Obama parents in Detroit that are worried?

[tommy d]

Detroit has a history of extreme segregation, the 60's riots and the white flight that crippled that once great center of American ingenuity and entrpeunership. Farmington is a suburb and not Detroit, the demographics are completely different. I remember traveling north and seeing a swastika on a Billboard off of the interstate, this was four years ago...

[clintronics]

Yeah that Obama ran the stockmarket down to zero.

[clintronics]

Usin your logic, the s&p was 849 when Obama was sworn in today its 1015. Guess that makes him a freakin genius and everyone who DIDN'T vote for him a dumb ass.

[hasserl]

We've seen some signs of improvement in the economy, and that is all good. I welcome all that we can get. But I fear we haven't seen the end of bad times. There are several things that can all combine to cause us more economic misery. To start with is the problem of deficit spending that is triple to quadruple the rate of previous years, which were historicaly high (yet not as a percnt of GDP, as a Percent of GDP they were actually mild). The projected national debt is unsustainable and eventually will cause the fed govn't to default in some form as they simply won't have the money to repay the debt. In order to fund this debt the govm't has to borrow the money, or print it. Due to the poor global economy there are not a lot of places that can afford to loan us the money, China is overexposed now and will be more hesistant to become even more overexposed. So if they can't borrow it, that means they'll have to print it, which is exactly what is happening. So you know what happens to the value of the dollars you have in your pocket if/when the govm't starts up the printing presses don't you? That's right, they will be worth less, which means inflation.

So how do we deal with inflation? The Fed Reserve raises interest rates. What effect does raising interest rates have on the economy? That's right, it slows it down. So, just when the economy appears to be making a move out of recession (a normal process that would have occured without any "stimulus" plan), guess what? Inflation and rising interest rates are waiting in the wings to smack it back down.

Now, add to all this the so called "Cap and Trade" legislation being planned, to limit the emission of so called "Green House gasses", which if put into place will have a devastating effect on the economy; and add to that "Health Care Reform" and we're looking at seriously kicking the crap out of the economy. So you may think things are looking up, but if you take a pragmatic look at things there's not a lot to be optimistic about.

Other than Obama's sinking popularity. Which is good news for all of us, regardless of your political persuasion, because as his popularity falls he looses political capital which makes it harder for him to suceed in destroying the country with his ill-advised, poorly thought out plans (or as Bob P would put it, his deliberate destruction of the economy. Correct me if I got that wrong Bob). Obama has become a polarizing figure, drawing controversy to himself and driving away the centrist population. Check the Rasmussen poll numbers on Obama, not looking too good. Daily Presidential Tracking Poll - Rasmussen Reports

[Diablo]

Anyone who is afraid of a message that Obama will give to school children is a confirmed idiot. All he will say is "stay in school, get an education, and make something of yourself". It might take him 10,000 words, but that will be his message.

[Bill Moore]

Guess you missed the part that asked the kids to write a letter to themselves about what they can do to help the president. If you go to U.S. Department of Education Home Page you will notice that the original message has been taken down. He already has a lot of socialists in place, and this probably seemed like a good idea until the public found out about it. Sal Alinsky, and Bill Ayers would be proud!
The idea that the federal education system would bypass local school board members, and go directly to principals, sugesting guidlines for what to talk about, should be circumspect in itself. When we let the schools, and not the parents, tell our kids what their values are, we are on the the path to the little red book, and glorious leader songs.

[clintronics]

Whats the big deal?

President George H.W. Bush gave an address to schools nationwide in 1991, from a junior high school in Washington, D.C. News reports from the time said the White House hoped that the address would be shown at schools nationwide, and Bush began his remarks by saying he was talking to "millions" of students "in classrooms all across the country."

You can read Bush's complete remarks via the Web site of his presidential library.

PolitiFact | Barack Obama is not the first president to address school children.


more from msnbc
Countdown with Keith Olbermann Countdown with Keith Olbermann

[hasserl]

Olberman? Please, you would do well to stay as far away from that flaming idiot, and that stupid ass network he's on as you possibly could.

Re the Obama's speech to shcool children, see Bill Moore's post above. The problems that people had with it were not the speach itself, it was the assignments that the WH was suggesting.

Besides, as I pointed out, Oblama is now a magnet for controversy. He is a polarizing figure and anything he does, or anything his minions do in his name, is going to draw massive attention and criticism. Did you check the Rasmussen poll I linked too? Look at those numbers, what President in recent history has lost the goodwill he carried into the job in such a short time? I think his fall from grace has been faster than anybody.

[clintronics]

check out the only poll that matters from Nov 4th? Who do the republicans got thats polling better? no more post from me on this subject cuz I just don't care that much.

[Diablo]

Yep, I hope Obama has socialists in place. The kind of socialists that created child labor laws, the 8-hour work day, social security, child immunization laws, fluoridization of water. If there is no government, there is no oversight, and that leads to Bernie Madoff. A little more government regulation can be a good thing.

[hasserl]

Originally Posted by clintronics

check out the only poll that matters from Nov 4th? Who do the republicans got thats polling better? no more post from me on this subject cuz I just don't care that much.

Do us all a favor and quit the partisan crap. I don't see anyone pushing Republicans here. You say you don't care that much, but when you're out of work and it takes a wheelbarrow full of cash to buy a loaf of bread and a gal of milk, you'll care plenty.

Originally Posted by Diablo

Yep, I hope Obama has socialists in place. The kind of socialists that created child labor laws, the 8-hour work day, social security, child immunization laws, fluoridization of water. If there is no government, there is no oversight, and that leads to Bernie Madoff. A little more government regulation can be a good thing.

So, in order to avoid one ditch you'll cross all the way over the road and drive off into the ditch on the other side huh? That sounds logical.

I suppose then you'd love Lenin, Stalin, Mao Tse-tung, Kim Il-sung, Kim Sung Il, Castro, Chaves, etc. Sounds like your kind of people.

[Diablo]

Originally Posted by hasserl

So, in order to avoid one ditch you'll cross all the way over the road and drive off into the ditch on the other side huh? That sounds logical.

I suppose then you'd love Lenin, Stalin, Mao Tse-tung, Kim Il-sung, Kim Sung Il, Castro, Chaves, etc. Sounds like your kind of people.

No, it's the partisan conservatives who are painting everything Obama does all in black and white. They don't believe in any middle ground. All government is bad, unless it's conservative Republicans who are taking away your rights and ignoring the constitution. I don't favor the policies of any of the dicatators you mentioned. Do you favor the policies of the strident anti-communists like Hitler and Mussolini?

Socialist policies is not the same as a dicatatorship.

[hasserl]

Do you favor the policies of the strident anti-communists like Hitler and Mussolini?

Do you favor the policies of anti-capitalists like George W Bush?

You say socialism is not the same thing as dictatorship (or rather that's my interpretation of what you said), but you can't have socialism unless you have restriction on individual liberty and freedom. The more socialism you have, the more restrictions on liberty.

May I suggeszt a book for you? America's 30 Years War, by Balint Vazsonyi:

Amazon.com: America's Thirty Years War: Who is Winning? (9780895262486): Balint Vazsonyi: Books

Amazon.com: America's Thirty Years War: Who is Winning? (9780895262486): Balint Vazsonyi: Books
Amazon.com: America's Thirty Years War: Who is Winning? (9780895262486): Balint Vazsonyi: Books

[tommy d]

Originally Posted by hasserl

Just my opinion, and you'll obviously have your own. But understand why those of us who despise liberalism and its steady march toward socialism feel the way we do. We see liberty slowly being eroded all the time, and once gone it is almost impossible to recover.

My 00buck says liberty is easy to recover, the same way we got it: one room at a time. The problem is wanting it. Americans always get what they want and this what they want, sort of. Wake up and smell the Democracy, it stinks when your side is losing!

[hasserl]

Originally Posted by tommy d

My 00buck says liberty is easy to recover, the same way we got it: one room at a time. The problem is wanting it. Americans always get what they want and this what they want, sort of. Wake up and smell the Democracy, it stinks when your side is losing!

You mean like the kind of democracy that's been happening at town halls all across America for the month of August? Yeah, it does stink when your side is losing, doesn't it? (checked that Rasmussen poll lately? Who's losing?)

Now as Americans are shaking off the shackles of political apathy, they are waking up to smell democracy, and it's the leftist that are on the defense.

Besides, I hate this "side" shit. The real losers are all of us, you and all Obama supporters included. We all suffer from the ignorant policies of his administration, we all bear the costs of his wanton and wasteful spending. Our grandchildren will bear those costs.

In any case, I disagree with your statement, American's don't get what they want, they get what they deserve. And since January that's been pretty bad. They thought they were getting one thing, and what they got is something entirely different. Hey, we tried to tell you, go back and look at some of the threads before the election. Can't say you weren't warned.

[Diablo]

Originally Posted by hasserl

You say socialism is not the same thing as dictatorship (or rather that's my interpretation of what you said), but you can't have socialism unless you have restriction on individual liberty and freedom. The more socialism you have, the more restrictions on liberty.

Says who?
You could make the same claim about laws and government. If we have any laws, they restrict your freedom......to rob, to kill, to steal. Total freedom is equivalent to anarchy. You want the fire department to show up at your house when it's burning? Better have a government with laws, and pay your taxes. This is not an all or nothing proposition.

[tommy d]

Originally Posted by hasserl

Besides, I hate this "side" shit. The real losers are all of us, you and all Obama supporters included. We all suffer from the ignorant policies of his administration, we all bear the costs of his wanton and wasteful spending. Our grandchildren will bear those costs.

Want to save your grand children money? (don't have any) Limit the baby boomers entitlements to what they paid in. That is who will bankrupt the US and they wont leave a crumb on the table for anyone else. If you think the Greatest Generation is expensive just wait until the The Worst Generation Ever starts sucking on the health care teat without insurance and their pathetic personal savings.

The American Dream dies with the boomers and their personal greed and lack of ethics and nobody can stop them because they have the voting numbers and the sense of entitlement. My only interest is that the worst saving generation ever have at least a little health care and place to live in.

You bore me with poll numbers and I told you so. A man will do anything to live a little bit longer, that is just the way it is. Mark my words, when the boomers start to go down as ugly as they should without government help, this country is in for one rough ride and nobody will be spared.

What exactly is your agenda? You seem to be against everything but what are you for? I am sincerely curious. If you had all the power, how would you change things? You talk about freedom but as a lawyer I can tell you your freedom began decaying steadily with the cold war and peaked recently under Cheney. You talk about failed flavors of societies, but which one do you support. It's so easy to destroy, do us a favor and share your vision of what you would build.

[hasserl]

Originally Posted by Diablo

Says who?
You could make the same claim about laws and government. If we have any laws, they restrict your freedom......to rob, to kill, to steal. Total freedom is equivalent to anarchy. You want the fire department to show up at your house when it's burning? Better have a government with laws, and pay your taxes. This is not an all or nothing proposition.

It's simple, The government that governs least governs best.