lacquering tweed- with what? (in UK)

The Captain · 03-07-2009, 02:10 PM

hi,

I had thought fender tweed was lacquered, having a tough yellowy gubbins on.. but apparantly its an extra process/ layer.. but of what? I'm in UK so if anyone could point me as to what the heck this lacquer stuff is called over here, & possibly where to buy..

..Id be very grateful. thanks capt.

Sir Cuitous · 03-07-2009, 07:21 PM

I believe it is called "lacquer". Specifically, nitrocellulose lacquer is what was used on the classic Fender tweed cabinet coverings. Here's a link:

Manchester Guitar Tech

I spray lacquer every week on guitars, but I have finished a tweed cab once. It was very simple. Use clear lacquer which you will see imparts a darker, amber/yellowish color to your tweed - very nice. You may use multiple applications. I would suggest two to three applications. Be careful not to over lacquer the tweed. It starts to look less like fabric and more like a hard shell if you spray too much.

distorto · 03-07-2009, 09:23 PM

Bullseye shellac is what a lot of folks use (myself included) they make an amber tinted version that people favor but it's too red for my taste. I hand tint the plain Shellac with a little yellow aline dye to give it more of a wheat color. I brush on 3 to four coats and it looks great. You can follow up with a clear lacquer if you want extra sheen. I belive Bullseye should be avail worldwide but I'm not 100%

Sir Cuitous · 03-07-2009, 09:53 PM

Polyurethane will also work. Come to think of it, I may have added a small amount of amber color to the lacquer when I sprayed the tweed.

TD_Madden · 03-07-2009, 11:39 PM

If you want to use a colored shellac, first put a coat of CLEAR on to pretect the seams from being too dark when you apply the colored shellac.

Chuck H · 03-08-2009, 03:43 AM

Because niether shellac or lacquer tint well with "universal" tints (those used by most paint stores) I use the polyurethane. Anolin dyes and other tints that are appropriate for shellac and lacquer must be ordered from a distributor so thats a pain. Pure yellow dye is too yellow anyhow so you must order a special mix (which costs more) or order mutiple bottles and mix it yourself (also a pain). For the pros reading this, let me qualify my statements. I am a "tinter" and have worked many years in the architectual coatings industry. Product aquisition and tinting are NOT a pain for me. But if I had never done it before and didn't know what to use to tint different products it would certainly be a pain.

Point is, the easy way for the novice to go is to use polyurethane. It has excellent self leveling properties and good open time so it brushes well (no spray equipement needed to get a good job. Lacquer and shellac are very fast and can be difficult to brush), polyurethane tints with the tints used at the stores where it is sold so you you don't have to buy or mix any extra stuff, it's available in different sheen levels (shellac is usually only available in gloss) so you can pick the "age" of the look with your sheen as well as color and it's more durable than both lacquer and shellac. In fact Kendrick, who does alot of restoration work on vintage Fender amps, reccommends polyurethane for this purpose.

If you MUST have the real deal vintage coating then semi gloss nitrocellulouse lacquer is what you want. You can tint it with a small amount of "lacquer stain" in a "yellow oxide" or "raw sienna" color. Lacquer should be sprayed. Brushing it is nearly impossible. Especially if you have never done it. As was mentioned earlier, put a coat of clear on before applying a tinted coat.

If you choose to go with polyurethane you should get Varathane satin finish. Have the clerk at the store put 8 "increments" of "yellow oxide" or "raw sienna" tint into a quart. Also get two spray cans of the same stuff. Apply a coat of clear with one of the spray cans. Let dry for two days. Then brush on a coat of the tinted product. If you want more color wait two days and brush on another coat and your done. If you don't need more color then wait two days and spray on another coat of clear and your done. easy peazy.

If you don't want to mess around with brushing tinted products to simulate age there is a trick you can do to "age" the finish almost instantly. But it is unpleasant. You just spray on three coats of lacquer or polyurethane (it's actually best to brush at least one coat of the polyurethane because it is thicker than lacquer and needs to be be brushed into the pores of the fabric)
Then you must build a small SEALABLE booth from 1x2 lumber and a plastic tarp. The booth should be about three times the size of your amp cabinet. DO THIS OUTSIDE. preferably under some cover to avoid condensation You place the amp inside the booth on small blocks along with a hot plate. On the hot plate you put a pan with 3/4 cup of household ammonia. Do a test ahead of time with the same hot plate and pan using water to determine a simmering setting. Now, with the amp and hotplate with pan and ammonia SEALED in the booth, plug in the hotplate. When you see steam forming let the ammonia vaporize for about 30 minutes and unplug the hotplate. Leave the whole thing sit overnight. Be careful not te breath the ammonia fumes when retrieving the amp. The fumes will burn your eyes and your lungs so it's best to open the booth and walk away for a few minutes before retrieving the amp. If there is any condensation on the amp just wipe it dry. If it is not already yellowed it will be over the next few days. Which is probably the soonest you would be able to bring it in the house anyhow.

Cheers

Chuck

Diablo · 03-08-2009, 04:21 AM

Nice tutorial Chuck!

Chuck H · 03-08-2009, 05:40 AM

Thanks. Once in a while a post comes up that my peripheral knowledges are suited for and I love to show off. Oh yeh, there's that whole "helping out" thing too

Chuck

Five_E35 · 03-08-2009, 01:50 PM

I did one some years ago with 2 coats of Bulleyes Shellac and a brush. For the first coat I used a 50/50 mix of amber and clear, the second was all clear and after it dried I hit it with some fine steel wool. It come out somewhere between a lighter Victoria and the almost too dark(IMO) Fender. One thing I'm still not sure about is what happens if it gets rained on. I've thought about hitting it with a finish coat of nitro, but don't want to take it all apart again. I don't know about the UK, but Walmart sells Bullseye shellac as well as Deft Brushing laquer for significantly less than places like Woodworld. Deft is Nitro and is also available in spray cans, but really smells so do it outside.

TD_Madden · 03-09-2009, 12:55 AM

I just gave it a couple coats of paste-wax after the shellac was fully dry.....nice and waterproof.

Chuck H · 03-09-2009, 01:49 AM

I don't like to contradict advice when it's subjective. And I'm not kicking anyone under the bus. But there are two good reasons not to use shellac. and two not to use wax.

Shellac continues to get harder and harder as it ages. This is not as good a thing as it sounds like because it also means it gets more and more brittle. Imagine starting with a sheet of "plastic wrap" that eventually turns into glass. Because this finish is being applied to fabric (which is generally softer and more flexible than wood or metal) shellac can eventually become too brittle to perform well on this substrate. Lacquer also hardens as it ages. Just look at all those old guitars with the checked lacquer finishes. But not as bad as shellac. If lacquer can check on wood then consider what shellac might do after ten or fifteen years on fabric. The finish will start to become cloudy and it will be even more opaque wherever the amp gets rubbed or bumped. This is the result of many tiny fissures in the hardened finish.

Shellac IS hard to brush. The reason is that it is alcohol based and that makes it very fast drying. Using clear shellac the result is "brush drag", which results in uneven mill thickness and drag marks. Not especially visible in tweed I know. But it can be and there are slower finishes that can be applied by brush. With amber shellac you get the brush drag also and this results in "lap marks", which is where the pigments in the product double up where the brush drags compared to where it doesn't. Again, not especially visible on tweed but it can be so why take the chance. There is no possible way to finish the entire cabinet or even one side while the shellac is still wet and workable.

Any wax you apply to a surface needs to be buffed to provide hardness and sheen. Because tweed is textured it is not easy to buff inside the valleys without doing damage to the finish or the tweed itself. If you don't buff properly you won't get the protection the wax is supposed to offer anyhow and the unbuffed wax in the pores of the finished tweed will have a cloudy appearance. Also, any wax you apply will have to be stripped off if you ever want to apply another coat of finish for any reason. If the amp is older and has checks or fissures in the finish the wax can actually stain the tweed premenantly making adding more finish impossible.

Don't ream me. I know some of you have finished your tweed amps with shellac and wax and are very happy. but these are the facts guys. If you ever have it to do over again I hope you will consider alternatives for your own benefit. You must have gotten your advice from somewhere. But of all the advice I ever hear given regarding any kind of construction, finishing advice is always the most ill informed. I think the reason is that you need to have a working relationship and awareness of many different chemicals to even begin to know what your talking about. Most amp restorers and hardware store clerks simply don't have that.

Chuck

distorto · 03-09-2009, 03:07 AM

I don't know...those original lacquered Fenders are 50+ years old and look amazing.

Chuck H · 03-09-2009, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by distorto

I don't know...those original lacquered Fenders are 50+ years old and look amazing.

It is hard to tell since all of the old tweeds I've seen are in pretty rough shape for other reasons as well. But if you look at how most of the old ones are stained it's clear that the lacquer is no longer sealing that tweed.

I did stipulate that shellac is worse than lacquer about brittleness. I also mentioned in my first post that if you want original then lacquer is the way to go.

What I didn't mention, but another poster did, is that Deft is a true nitrocellulouse lacquer. And it's available in spray cans. And they are really good spray cans. So this would be an option IMO. Just let it dry up nice and tight for a couple of days then do the vaporized ammonia trick and you have the real deal aged finish just like an original. Only brand new...Cool.

Chuck

The Captain · 03-09-2009, 07:22 PM

Hi folks, many thanks for replies, especially the long ones.

As i mentioned I am in Uk, so unfortunately for me, the replies tend to be n/a. ie the names mentioned are just not found here..

So if I can reitterate slightly differently: s'one somewhere has mentioned carpainters "cellulose lacquer" over here in UK. So looking on ebay I find this..

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1k-clearcoat-l...1%7C240%3A1318

**Can anyone, pref in UK, tell me if this is the kind of stuff.. or to anyone in UK in general: what stuff do I lacquer fender tweed with/ what is the name of such stuff -as to be found in the UK?

thanks, capt.

MWJB · 03-09-2009, 07:35 PM

Button polish, try your local hardware store. I know Chuck doesn't like shellac but, depending on the tweed you use, you can get ball-park on a genuine 50's tweed amp (we've done plenty of "side by side" comparisons on this), most of which are rarely the same shade from panel to panel anyway. It's what EVERYONE I know uses.

Five_E35 · 03-09-2009, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MWJB

Button polish, try your local hardware store. I know Chuck doesn't like shellac but, depending on the tweed you use, you can get ball-park on a genuine 50's tweed amp (we've done plenty of "side by side" comparisons on this), most of which are rarely the same shade from panel to panel anyway. It's what EVERYONE I know uses.

It's been about a dozen years since I did mine(a RI Bassman), but I do remember thinning the 1st coat of shellac with denatured alcohol and the application process was more like scrubbing it on with a bristle brush to get it to soak into the tweed. I didn't even save the brush for the second coat, which was somewhat thicker.

One other thing I don't like about the current LTD Fenders, which I've never seen on an old one is the finish is much too thin and leaves the tweed rough and porous. Most that I've seen have at least an amount of 'fill' about like a Victoria or are even smoother, but I have no idea what was done to them over the years. I'd think you'd have to spray a whole lot of nitro to get there, and Poly might be better at building up some fill.

I'm about to do another cab for my 5E3 when the weather warms up and I was thinking Shellac followed by a finish coat of Nitro, both by brush. FWIW, I've never waxed mine, but did clean it a couple of times with the low gloss Amour-all Ultimate clean and it came out fine. I've been using less aggressive Meguiars Qwick Interior Detailer lately.

distorto · 03-09-2009, 10:39 PM

Yeah I agree Shellac is fine. Looks great and is easy to use. Lets not forget that If durability is the number one concern then a person should use Tolex which is what Fender used when they realized that tweed didn't wear so well. Slap it on and let it wear as it will.

The Captain · 03-09-2009, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MWJB

Button polish, try your local hardware store. I know Chuck doesn't like shellac but, depending on the tweed you use, you can get ball-park on a genuine 50's tweed amp (we've done plenty of "side by side" comparisons on this), most of which are rarely the same shade from panel to panel anyway. It's what EVERYONE I know uses.

Hi there MJWB, thanks for the reply: button polish? thats a new one on me..

gawd I had thought this might be simpler, ie a tin of xyz, brush, job done. I just cant be faffed adding ochres, shellacs & 3x coats- all I want is a clear thickish lacquer to brush on (spray- no way as it just gets everywhere/ unpleasant to use if any wind etc).

So again if there's anyone in UK who has any idea what such a tin might be/ be called over here? or if anyone's used something like the ebay tin I guessed at? at the mo my patience is running out with this! but surely it cant be so complicated..

Five_E35 · 03-10-2009, 01:58 PM

I've never tried it on an amp, but maybe Spar Varnish would work? It's a type of varnish usually based on tung oil and has an amber tint to it. It's softer and sands and repairs much easier than indoor polyurethane. It was originally developed for spars on sailing vessels(I believe in England), but is used for cabinets and wood trim on boats. It's not recommended for seats or decks because it never completely hardens. Maybe someone who's tried it or knows more about it can add something.

Chuck H · 03-11-2009, 05:12 AM

Spar varnish (or "marine" varnish) is an outstanding product for some things. I use it for exterior wood trim and doors that get alot of weather, especially sun. It remains quite flexible compared to other clear finishes and doesn't "blush" when bruised like other finishes. So dents and dings won't show as badly. But... I do think it's a bit soft for an amp finish though I've never tried it. It has a pretty slow dry time. So soaked into fabric it may build too thick and that can cause the surface film to dry before the material underneath "colesces". This can cause wrinkling in the surface film. A test sample should be tried before using it on the project. I do think that after about a year it would be hard enough to protect the amp effectively. It would amber very nicely and it smells terrific IMO. One of my favorite products to work with. The very long open time makes for a glass smooth finish. Even with a brush. So getting it even on tweed and keeping a wet edge would be easier.

Chuck

The Captain · 03-11-2009, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MWJB

Button polish, try your local hardware store. I know Chuck doesn't like shellac but, depending on the tweed you use, you can get ball-park on a genuine 50's tweed amp (we've done plenty of "side by side" comparisons on this), most of which are rarely the same shade from panel to panel anyway. It's what EVERYONE I know uses.

right I think I've had it with this! (MJWB thx for the pm etc). Shellac (whatever that is exactly), polyeurethane, nitrocellulose, Rustins Plastic Coating, button polish.. enough already. I will try a std wood varnish on a test piece and that's it for me with this!

that's the prob with forums: with all the help/ opinions I'm completely lost..

fwiw today I scoured places on an ind estate, testing on tweed offcuts various different lacquer sprays (car body places): all (after an almighty headache in car!) looked absolutely no different to the tough yellowy finish on the tweed as it is originally.

I cant understand why anyone wants anything on the tweed as it is-? is it just for effect? ie a colour thing? if so I'm damned if I'm spending hrs/ headaches/ money to get a tiny different shade to the tweed. bollocks. & big ones at that.

pgussler · 03-12-2009, 12:18 AM

I have been using spray nitro lacquer from Reranch for quite some time. I have found that the spay goes on quite a bit more evenly than brushing it on. They offer the product in clear or a lightly tinted amber. http://reranch.com/

The Captain · 03-12-2009, 01:26 AM

yes -i hope- a solution can be found like as simple a varnish as this.

But with all the suggestions here (Im a bit far from Texas me) I am concerned with both..

A) affecting the bond between fabric and pine.. ie any bubbling or loosening of the fine firm adhesion you get with tweed, and
B) any (bad) discolouration or saturation of the tweed.

Both these would ruin a covering: hugely time-consuming and costly to redo, not to mention such gnashing of teeth my gums would explode.

Chuck H · 03-12-2009, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Captain

right I think I've had it with this! (MJWB thx for the pm etc). Shellac (whatever that is exactly), polyeurethane, nitrocellulose, Rustins Plastic Coating, button polish.. enough already. I will try a std wood varnish on a test piece and that's it for me with this!

And

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Captain

that's the prob with forums: with all the help/ opinions I'm completely lost..

And

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Captain

I cant understand why anyone wants anything on the tweed as it is-? is it just for effect? ie a colour thing? if so I'm damned if I'm spending hrs/ headaches/ money to get a tiny different shade to the tweed. bollocks. & big ones at that.

Easy...Close your eyes, take a deep breath and find a happy place.

What you have is the opinions of experts and others with practical experience. What we know now is that shellac, lacquer and polyurethane are all acceptible finishes for tweed that have worked for people on a regular basis and info on how to apply them. Thats good stuff. A little more searching on your part will reveal that shellac, lacquer and polyurethane are all available on your side of the pond. There has also been info on tinting finishes or aging finishes to get an "authentic" look. All good stuff.

Ordinary varnish is the only product indicated in this thread that DOESN'T hav an endorsement.

To come off with "that's the problem with forums" and "bollocks" to the idea of adding a little color after all these good people have at least tried to help is insulting. Adding color is a trick done to maximize the project. That's what we do here. Maximize our amps and projects. That's why you posted here, isn't it? I hope I've simply misunderstood your sense of humor.

If you take the info in this post, do a little research to locate products and make some test samples you can maximize your project too.

Chuck

MWJB · 03-12-2009, 12:34 PM

In addition to what Chuck says...plain, untreated tweed looks anemic compared to vintage tweed (the first time I did a bassman, I just sat it next to the TV and stared at it from time to time...aaaahhh!). Plain, unsealed tweed absorbs stains, sealing it will reduce this significantly. Some guys like the treatment just on the tweed, some actually prefer to treat the bare pine as well, as they think that this enhances the tone/resonance of the cab (I just do the tweed).

As to what exactly to use? Well, post a question like this on a forum with thousands of contributors and you're naturally going to get a few contradictary responses. If you have a few swatches of tweed, try a couple of approaches (bearing in mind ease & regularity of supply of the chosen product, for consistency) and go with the one you like the look of best, check out some vintage tweed amps too, many are various tints depending on the environments they've endured...there's no one, "right" solution.

Personally...I prefer tolex.

theunrulychef · 03-12-2009, 01:10 PM

A little off topic, but not too much. Chuck, can you see any problems with using that ammonia trick to age nitro finished guitar pieces (w/ shellac based undercoat)? It wouldn't soften it up or make the paint gummy or anything?

I like threads like this - lots of info with different tips & tricks.

-Jay

The Captain · 03-12-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck H

I hope I've simply misunderstood your sense of humor.

If you take the info in this post, do a little research to locate products and make some test samples you can maximize your project too.

Chuck

indeed you have. i have a very droll sense of humour, as is the english way. apologies if it seemed like I was unappreciative of the replies- I am very much so, just frustrated with this thats all.

fwiw household wood varnish IS the best Ive tried among all the tests! still it looks almost identical to the tough yellowey lacquer thats on the tweed in the first place (as with other tests, I had to look hard to even see where I'd applied it).

I still cant understand the idea really: if its just for a slight tint to the (rather nice coloured imo) orig tweed colour then there's little point to me. But if the idea's to add a hard, protective layer to the tweed then I can see the point, but can't see any viable way of adding without hours of work/ layer upon layer for such small benefit..

.. unless there IS a brush-on, one coat, hard protective/ tweed-sealing-type substance. My conclusion tho: there's not, well not in UK anyway.

MWJB · 03-12-2009, 03:42 PM

It takes me about an hour to do a bassman cab with button polish, 3 consecutive coats on each surface (next coat goes on while last coat is just "tacky"), then some cutting in.

What is the "tough yellowy lacquer" on the tweed you mention? Where did you buy it, what is it called? Raw tweed has nothing on it.

The Captain · 03-12-2009, 03:57 PM

eh? surely when you see tweed to buy here in UK its yellow coloured on one side, white/ dark brown bare reverse side? Ive buy from two places, exactly the same product: obviously its a factory yellowy tough substance applied.

Ive never seen 'fender tweed' sold as bare white/ dark weave tweed, anywhere.

now Im really confused!

MWJB · 03-12-2009, 04:17 PM

No, the tweed is usually the same colours on both sides (yellow/green or yellow/brown).

Go to torresamps.com, "grill cloths & coverings", is this your tweed? Or advise as to where you bought yours.

The Captain · 03-12-2009, 05:05 PM

yellow/ green?! what the dickens..

this is my stuff. std fender tweed. its bare white/ brn back, tough yellowy lacquered (thats the best description of what it is imo) on the good/front side.

http://guitar-parts-and-spares-uk.co...rget=d422.html

(search 'tweed' at top lhs, first item down).

Chuck H · 03-12-2009, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theunrulychef

A little off topic, but not too much. Chuck, can you see any problems with using that ammonia trick to age nitro finished guitar pieces (w/ shellac based undercoat)? It wouldn't soften it up or make the paint gummy or anything?

No it shouldn't make the paint gummy or anything. But it can depend on the finish you've applied. If you used a water based polyurethane you would have a disaster. So no matter what, I reccommend a test run.

The vaporized ammonia trick is done commercially to age wood prior to finishing. It darkens the hard grain, unlike stain which darkens the soft grain. You don't really see any difference in the unfinished wood until you finish it.

I came across this trick acidentally when I was applying a white polyurethane in a laundry room that had recently been cleaned with ammonia. It turned very amber yellow where in other areas that didn't have ammonia fumes it did not. When used on already finished wood the oxidization occures in the finish, not the wood itself. It must be done before the finish is fully cured but not while it is soft. So it's a small window of opportunity. Your piece should have it's actual finish coat before you do this. But that isn't to say you can't experiment for different levels of effect. As in doing it after all but the very last coat...etc.

My only concearn doing it with "parts" would be that they are not fully finished on all sides. So some of the vapor would move into the pores of the wood. I can't say how this would effect color at the edges of the finish or how this would effect glue joints and such.

There are different tricks to "age" wood prior to finishing too that are used by antique restoration guys (and hucksters) to get a very authentic look.

Chuck

MWJB · 03-12-2009, 05:25 PM

Yours appears to have been pre-treated.

The Captain · 03-12-2009, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MWJB

No, the tweed is usually the same colours on both sides (yellow/green or yellow/brown).

Go to torresamps.com, "grill cloths & coverings", is this your tweed? Or advise as to where you bought yours.

crickey that is expensive.. the pic is so bad I cant make out if thats white/brown bare tweed, or indeed as I buy it, the std yellow/brown. But if it is yellow/brown.. then this MUST be a layer of some kind of lacquer, unless as you say its on both sides(?) then the yellow may be it orig woven colour.

god Im so confused now!! Ive literally got a headache due to this..

Ive emailed torres, & Appleton to ask; what is on the tweed, ie is it a lacquer? is it sold as 'lacquered', & if not what is it, and/or could it be "nitro" lacquered?

The Captain · 03-12-2009, 05:28 PM

hang on then.. so mine IS lacquered then do you think?!?

whats the local mentalist hospital- i need to call them.

03-07-2009, 02:10 PM	#1
The Captain Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Stratford-U-Avon, England. Posts: 317	lacquering tweed- with what? (in UK) hi, I had thought fender tweed was lacquered, having a tough yellowy gubbins on.. but apparantly its an extra process/ layer.. but of what? I'm in UK so if anyone could point me as to what the heck this lacquer stuff is called over here, & possibly where to buy.. ..Id be very grateful. thanks capt.

03-07-2009, 07:21 PM	#2
Sir Cuitous Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Van Nuys, CA Posts: 212	I believe it is called "lacquer". Specifically, nitrocellulose lacquer is what was used on the classic Fender tweed cabinet coverings. Here's a link: Manchester Guitar Tech I spray lacquer every week on guitars, but I have finished a tweed cab once. It was very simple. Use clear lacquer which you will see imparts a darker, amber/yellowish color to your tweed - very nice. You may use multiple applications. I would suggest two to three applications. Be careful not to over lacquer the tweed. It starts to look less like fabric and more like a hard shell if you spray too much. __________________ "The time I burned my guitar it was like a sacrifice. You sacrifice the things you love. I love my guitar." - Jimi Hendrix http://www.detempleguitars.com

03-07-2009, 09:53 PM	#4
Sir Cuitous Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Van Nuys, CA Posts: 212	Polyurethane will also work. Come to think of it, I may have added a small amount of amber color to the lacquer when I sprayed the tweed. __________________ "The time I burned my guitar it was like a sacrifice. You sacrifice the things you love. I love my guitar." - Jimi Hendrix http://www.detempleguitars.com

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03-07-2009, 09:23 PM	#3
distorto Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 42	Bullseye shellac is what a lot of folks use (myself included) they make an amber tinted version that people favor but it's too red for my taste. I hand tint the plain Shellac with a little yellow aline dye to give it more of a wheat color. I brush on 3 to four coats and it looks great. You can follow up with a clear lacquer if you want extra sheen. I belive Bullseye should be avail worldwide but I'm not 100%

03-07-2009, 11:39 PM	#5
TD_Madden Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Manassas, VA Posts: 693	If you want to use a colored shellac, first put a coat of CLEAR on to pretect the seams from being too dark when you apply the colored shellac.

03-08-2009, 03:43 AM	#6
Chuck H Old Timer Join Date: May 2007 Location: pacific north west Posts: 1,483	Because niether shellac or lacquer tint well with "universal" tints (those used by most paint stores) I use the polyurethane. Anolin dyes and other tints that are appropriate for shellac and lacquer must be ordered from a distributor so thats a pain. Pure yellow dye is too yellow anyhow so you must order a special mix (which costs more) or order mutiple bottles and mix it yourself (also a pain). For the pros reading this, let me qualify my statements. I am a "tinter" and have worked many years in the architectual coatings industry. Product aquisition and tinting are NOT a pain for me. But if I had never done it before and didn't know what to use to tint different products it would certainly be a pain. Point is, the easy way for the novice to go is to use polyurethane. It has excellent self leveling properties and good open time so it brushes well (no spray equipement needed to get a good job. Lacquer and shellac are very fast and can be difficult to brush), polyurethane tints with the tints used at the stores where it is sold so you you don't have to buy or mix any extra stuff, it's available in different sheen levels (shellac is usually only available in gloss) so you can pick the "age" of the look with your sheen as well as color and it's more durable than both lacquer and shellac. In fact Kendrick, who does alot of restoration work on vintage Fender amps, reccommends polyurethane for this purpose. If you MUST have the real deal vintage coating then semi gloss nitrocellulouse lacquer is what you want. You can tint it with a small amount of "lacquer stain" in a "yellow oxide" or "raw sienna" color. Lacquer should be sprayed. Brushing it is nearly impossible. Especially if you have never done it. As was mentioned earlier, put a coat of clear on before applying a tinted coat. If you choose to go with polyurethane you should get Varathane satin finish. Have the clerk at the store put 8 "increments" of "yellow oxide" or "raw sienna" tint into a quart. Also get two spray cans of the same stuff. Apply a coat of clear with one of the spray cans. Let dry for two days. Then brush on a coat of the tinted product. If you want more color wait two days and brush on another coat and your done. If you don't need more color then wait two days and spray on another coat of clear and your done. easy peazy. If you don't want to mess around with brushing tinted products to simulate age there is a trick you can do to "age" the finish almost instantly. But it is unpleasant. You just spray on three coats of lacquer or polyurethane (it's actually best to brush at least one coat of the polyurethane because it is thicker than lacquer and needs to be be brushed into the pores of the fabric) Then you must build a small SEALABLE booth from 1x2 lumber and a plastic tarp. The booth should be about three times the size of your amp cabinet. DO THIS OUTSIDE. preferably under some cover to avoid condensation You place the amp inside the booth on small blocks along with a hot plate. On the hot plate you put a pan with 3/4 cup of household ammonia. Do a test ahead of time with the same hot plate and pan using water to determine a simmering setting. Now, with the amp and hotplate with pan and ammonia SEALED in the booth, plug in the hotplate. When you see steam forming let the ammonia vaporize for about 30 minutes and unplug the hotplate. Leave the whole thing sit overnight. Be careful not te breath the ammonia fumes when retrieving the amp. The fumes will burn your eyes and your lungs so it's best to open the booth and walk away for a few minutes before retrieving the amp. If there is any condensation on the amp just wipe it dry. If it is not already yellowed it will be over the next few days. Which is probably the soonest you would be able to bring it in the house anyhow. Cheers Chuck

03-08-2009, 04:21 AM	#7
Diablo Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 505	Nice tutorial Chuck!

03-08-2009, 05:40 AM	#8
Chuck H Old Timer Join Date: May 2007 Location: pacific north west Posts: 1,483	Thanks. Once in a while a post comes up that my peripheral knowledges are suited for and I love to show off. Oh yeh, there's that whole "helping out" thing too Chuck

03-08-2009, 01:50 PM	#9
Five_E35 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 54	I did one some years ago with 2 coats of Bulleyes Shellac and a brush. For the first coat I used a 50/50 mix of amber and clear, the second was all clear and after it dried I hit it with some fine steel wool. It come out somewhere between a lighter Victoria and the almost too dark(IMO) Fender. One thing I'm still not sure about is what happens if it gets rained on. I've thought about hitting it with a finish coat of nitro, but don't want to take it all apart again. I don't know about the UK, but Walmart sells Bullseye shellac as well as Deft Brushing laquer for significantly less than places like Woodworld. Deft is Nitro and is also available in spray cans, but really smells so do it outside.

03-09-2009, 12:55 AM	#10
TD_Madden Senior Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Manassas, VA Posts: 693	I just gave it a couple coats of paste-wax after the shellac was fully dry.....nice and waterproof.

03-09-2009, 01:49 AM	#11
Chuck H Old Timer Join Date: May 2007 Location: pacific north west Posts: 1,483	I don't like to contradict advice when it's subjective. And I'm not kicking anyone under the bus. But there are two good reasons not to use shellac. and two not to use wax. Shellac continues to get harder and harder as it ages. This is not as good a thing as it sounds like because it also means it gets more and more brittle. Imagine starting with a sheet of "plastic wrap" that eventually turns into glass. Because this finish is being applied to fabric (which is generally softer and more flexible than wood or metal) shellac can eventually become too brittle to perform well on this substrate. Lacquer also hardens as it ages. Just look at all those old guitars with the checked lacquer finishes. But not as bad as shellac. If lacquer can check on wood then consider what shellac might do after ten or fifteen years on fabric. The finish will start to become cloudy and it will be even more opaque wherever the amp gets rubbed or bumped. This is the result of many tiny fissures in the hardened finish. Shellac IS hard to brush. The reason is that it is alcohol based and that makes it very fast drying. Using clear shellac the result is "brush drag", which results in uneven mill thickness and drag marks. Not especially visible in tweed I know. But it can be and there are slower finishes that can be applied by brush. With amber shellac you get the brush drag also and this results in "lap marks", which is where the pigments in the product double up where the brush drags compared to where it doesn't. Again, not especially visible on tweed but it can be so why take the chance. There is no possible way to finish the entire cabinet or even one side while the shellac is still wet and workable. Any wax you apply to a surface needs to be buffed to provide hardness and sheen. Because tweed is textured it is not easy to buff inside the valleys without doing damage to the finish or the tweed itself. If you don't buff properly you won't get the protection the wax is supposed to offer anyhow and the unbuffed wax in the pores of the finished tweed will have a cloudy appearance. Also, any wax you apply will have to be stripped off if you ever want to apply another coat of finish for any reason. If the amp is older and has checks or fissures in the finish the wax can actually stain the tweed premenantly making adding more finish impossible. Don't ream me. I know some of you have finished your tweed amps with shellac and wax and are very happy. but these are the facts guys. If you ever have it to do over again I hope you will consider alternatives for your own benefit. You must have gotten your advice from somewhere. But of all the advice I ever hear given regarding any kind of construction, finishing advice is always the most ill informed. I think the reason is that you need to have a working relationship and awareness of many different chemicals to even begin to know what your talking about. Most amp restorers and hardware store clerks simply don't have that. Chuck

03-09-2009, 03:07 AM	#12
distorto Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 42	I don't know...those original lacquered Fenders are 50+ years old and look amazing.

03-09-2009, 07:22 PM	#14
The Captain Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Stratford-U-Avon, England. Posts: 317	Hi folks, many thanks for replies, especially the long ones. As i mentioned I am in Uk, so unfortunately for me, the replies tend to be n/a. ie the names mentioned are just not found here.. So if I can reitterate slightly differently: s'one somewhere has mentioned carpainters "cellulose lacquer" over here in UK. So looking on ebay I find this.. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1k-clearcoat-l...1%7C240%3A1318 **Can anyone, pref in UK, tell me if this is the kind of stuff.. or to anyone in UK in general: what stuff do I lacquer fender tweed with/ what is the name of such stuff -as to be found in the UK? thanks, capt.

03-09-2009, 07:35 PM	#15
MWJB Old Timer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,926	Button polish, try your local hardware store. I know Chuck doesn't like shellac but, depending on the tweed you use, you can get ball-park on a genuine 50's tweed amp (we've done plenty of "side by side" comparisons on this), most of which are rarely the same shade from panel to panel anyway. It's what EVERYONE I know uses.

03-09-2009, 10:39 PM	#17
distorto Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 42	Yeah I agree Shellac is fine. Looks great and is easy to use. Lets not forget that If durability is the number one concern then a person should use Tolex which is what Fender used when they realized that tweed didn't wear so well. Slap it on and let it wear as it will.

03-10-2009, 01:58 PM	#19
Five_E35 Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 54	I've never tried it on an amp, but maybe Spar Varnish would work? It's a type of varnish usually based on tung oil and has an amber tint to it. It's softer and sands and repairs much easier than indoor polyurethane. It was originally developed for spars on sailing vessels(I believe in England), but is used for cabinets and wood trim on boats. It's not recommended for seats or decks because it never completely hardens. Maybe someone who's tried it or knows more about it can add something.

03-11-2009, 05:12 AM	#20
Chuck H Old Timer Join Date: May 2007 Location: pacific north west Posts: 1,483	Spar varnish (or "marine" varnish) is an outstanding product for some things. I use it for exterior wood trim and doors that get alot of weather, especially sun. It remains quite flexible compared to other clear finishes and doesn't "blush" when bruised like other finishes. So dents and dings won't show as badly. But... I do think it's a bit soft for an amp finish though I've never tried it. It has a pretty slow dry time. So soaked into fabric it may build too thick and that can cause the surface film to dry before the material underneath "colesces". This can cause wrinkling in the surface film. A test sample should be tried before using it on the project. I do think that after about a year it would be hard enough to protect the amp effectively. It would amber very nicely and it smells terrific IMO. One of my favorite products to work with. The very long open time makes for a glass smooth finish. Even with a brush. So getting it even on tweed and keeping a wet edge would be easier. Chuck

03-12-2009, 12:18 AM	#22
pgussler Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 9	I have been using spray nitro lacquer from Reranch for quite some time. I have found that the spay goes on quite a bit more evenly than brushing it on. They offer the product in clear or a lightly tinted amber. http://reranch.com/

03-12-2009, 01:26 AM	#23
The Captain Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Stratford-U-Avon, England. Posts: 317	yes -i hope- a solution can be found like as simple a varnish as this. But with all the suggestions here (Im a bit far from Texas me) I am concerned with both.. A) affecting the bond between fabric and pine.. ie any bubbling or loosening of the fine firm adhesion you get with tweed, and B) any (bad) discolouration or saturation of the tweed. Both these would ruin a covering: hugely time-consuming and costly to redo, not to mention such gnashing of teeth my gums would explode.

03-12-2009, 12:34 PM	#25
MWJB Old Timer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,926	In addition to what Chuck says...plain, untreated tweed looks anemic compared to vintage tweed (the first time I did a bassman, I just sat it next to the TV and stared at it from time to time...aaaahhh!). Plain, unsealed tweed absorbs stains, sealing it will reduce this significantly. Some guys like the treatment just on the tweed, some actually prefer to treat the bare pine as well, as they think that this enhances the tone/resonance of the cab (I just do the tweed). As to what exactly to use? Well, post a question like this on a forum with thousands of contributors and you're naturally going to get a few contradictary responses. If you have a few swatches of tweed, try a couple of approaches (bearing in mind ease & regularity of supply of the chosen product, for consistency) and go with the one you like the look of best, check out some vintage tweed amps too, many are various tints depending on the environments they've endured...there's no one, "right" solution. Personally...I prefer tolex.

03-12-2009, 01:10 PM	#26
theunrulychef Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 76	A little off topic, but not too much. Chuck, can you see any problems with using that ammonia trick to age nitro finished guitar pieces (w/ shellac based undercoat)? It wouldn't soften it up or make the paint gummy or anything? I like threads like this - lots of info with different tips & tricks. -Jay

03-12-2009, 03:42 PM	#28
MWJB Old Timer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,926	It takes me about an hour to do a bassman cab with button polish, 3 consecutive coats on each surface (next coat goes on while last coat is just "tacky"), then some cutting in. What is the "tough yellowy lacquer" on the tweed you mention? Where did you buy it, what is it called? Raw tweed has nothing on it.

03-12-2009, 03:57 PM	#29
The Captain Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Stratford-U-Avon, England. Posts: 317	eh? surely when you see tweed to buy here in UK its yellow coloured on one side, white/ dark brown bare reverse side? Ive buy from two places, exactly the same product: obviously its a factory yellowy tough substance applied. Ive never seen 'fender tweed' sold as bare white/ dark weave tweed, anywhere. now Im really confused!

03-12-2009, 04:17 PM	#30
MWJB Old Timer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,926	No, the tweed is usually the same colours on both sides (yellow/green or yellow/brown). Go to torresamps.com, "grill cloths & coverings", is this your tweed? Or advise as to where you bought yours.

03-12-2009, 05:05 PM	#31
The Captain Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Stratford-U-Avon, England. Posts: 317	yellow/ green?! what the dickens.. this is my stuff. std fender tweed. its bare white/ brn back, tough yellowy lacquered (thats the best description of what it is imo) on the good/front side. http://guitar-parts-and-spares-uk.co...rget=d422.html (search 'tweed' at top lhs, first item down).

03-12-2009, 05:25 PM	#33
MWJB Old Timer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 1,926	Yours appears to have been pre-treated.

03-12-2009, 05:28 PM	#35
The Captain Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Stratford-U-Avon, England. Posts: 317	hang on then.. so mine IS lacquered then do you think?!? whats the local mentalist hospital- i need to call them.

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