Active Crossover? Full range guitar help

[theunrulychef]

I'm playing with a couple of people in an "ambient / noise" trio. We're using samples, loopers & a ton of delays to make orchestral? type music, but all with guitars & bass - total ripoff of Stars of the Lid. The problem I'm running into is, my trusty Princeton Reverb (w/ DR output trans & 12" cannabis rex) isn't up to the extra bass needed for this particular style of playing. I'm laying down loops, turning them 1/2 speed (possibly going 1/2 speed again on another looper), using octave pedals, and playing bass all through the same rig at the same time. The PR is farting out on the super low stuff & it sounds like it's gonna vibrate the amp apart sometimes. I've done this sort of stuff for years, going through a web of old "junk" amps. The extra noises that arose were always part of the charm. Now, we're trying to do this a little "nicer" ie without the amps sounding like they're tearing themselves to pieces. I'm looking for suggestions to alter my amp rig. We're trying to keep volumes low, and I'm also not looking for much amp breakup or crunch for this particular project. That being said, I don't want it to sound like I'm playing through a PA or mixing board.

Here's a couple things I was thinking of:

1.) Active crossover at the end of pedal chain sending lows to bass amp & highs to PR. I haven't been able to find a pedal or guitar level crossover - just line level rack stuff for PA. I'm hoping for something a little more elegant than running stereo outs to 2 graphic eqs - then to the bass & guitar amps.

2.) 30-60 watter through a larger cab (turned down to 2 unfortunately). A big cab would probably do alot to help with the fartiness, but I'd have to choose the circuit wisely so that a bass guitar also sounds decent through it. Perhaps a tweed Bassman & 1x15" might be a good fit here? Hell, I'm even tempted to pick up a JC120 for $300 used, but would all that bass frequency sound ok through it? I've had a huge itch for a couple months to build an EF86/Top Boost AC30, but I just don't see it being the right circuit for this application.

3.) Passive crossover after the PR to a big 15" cab & internal 12"?

Anyways, I'd love to hear your opinions & suggestions. Thanks in advance,
Jay in Philly

[Chuck H]

So, what you want is an amp that sounds like a Princeton Reverb being pushed a little for the normal and psuedo normal guitar tones but then instinctively morphes into a bigger cleaner amp with more fidelity and headroom when it's pushed by a bass, overly effected guitar and synthesized plug in tracks, right?

I just wanted to write it down so you could see what you asked in a nut shell. I think the answer (which is 'there is no good answer') becomes obvious.

The crossover idea is a good one but you'll still suffer a lack of fidelity and clear bass from the amp itself if it's being pushed into overdrive by the big bottom. Meaning that the limitations of the guitar amp speaker aren't your only limitations.

I'm not sure why you need to run everything through the same amp. Unless your doing most of this with the same guitar and using a loop. Or if there is some kind of artistic stipulation for this sort of performance that dictates only one amp should be used. Otherwise, to my mind, whatever I need to do to make the sounds I want is fair game. I'd use the Princeton for what the Princeton does and use a more suitable amp for the higher fidelity stuff. If cost of gear is a factor you could run the higher fidelity stuff through one of those pedal preamps and steal a channel on the PA.

If it's true that you need to use the same station and amp for everything then you could use a bigger amp that suits the other instruments and effects and just preamp the guitar stuff with pedals to get that "guitar amp" sound through the bigger amp. You could also run the Princeton cleaner and lower and use a line out circuit to send the output to the PA for a boost back up in volume. A line out is a really easy circuit.

Just a couple of ideas.

Chuck

[theunrulychef]

Originally Posted by Chuck H

So, what you want is an amp that sounds like a Princeton Reverb being pushed a little for the normal and psuedo normal guitar tones but then instinctively morphes into a bigger cleaner amp with more fidelity and headroom when it's pushed by a bass, overly effected guitar and synthesized plug in tracks, right?

I just wanted to write it down so you could see what you asked in a nut shell. I think the answer (which is 'there is no good answer') becomes obvious.

Sorta. I'm looking for lots of clean headroom from the Princeton too (I think it was on 2.5 last time we played) - not looking for amp overdrive at all (for this type of playing). I'm open to changing amps or having multiple amps, but for 75% of the sounds I'm making, the PR sounds great so that's why I thought a crossover might be good solution. It's just when I get the really low stuff, or use the bass, the speaker & cab can't handle it.

Originally Posted by Chuck H

I'm not sure why you need to run everything through the same amp. Unless your doing most of this with the same guitar and using a loop. Or if there is some kind of artistic stipulation for this sort of performance that dictates only one amp should be used. Otherwise, to my mind, whatever I need to do to make the sounds I want is fair game. I'd use the Princeton for what the Princeton does and use a more suitable amp for the higher fidelity stuff. If cost of gear is a factor you could run the higher fidelity stuff through one of those pedal preamps and steal a channel on the PA.

If it's true that you need to use the same station and amp for everything then you could use a bigger amp that suits the other instruments and effects and just preamp the guitar stuff with pedals to get that "guitar amp" sound through the bigger amp. You could also run the Princeton cleaner and lower and use a line out circuit to send the output to the PA for a boost back up in volume. A line out is a really easy circuit.

You are correct that I use the guitar to produce many of these low frequencies & need to be running through the same pedal chain (even with bass) so that when I overdub a loop, it can stay in sync with previous loops - sorry if that was unclear. If I use multiple amps, they need to come from the same pedal chain signal source.

Doing a line out would work if I put a hi-pass filter from the power amp to the PR speaker, then put that line out into a bass/keyboard amp or the PA.

It's not that I want the system to be high fidelity (far from it), I just need to figure out a amp/speaker system that will be able to handle the bass, and not sound like I'm playing guitar through a PA or bass amp. I guess that pushes me further toward building a bassman or something similar.

Thanks,
Jay

[Steve Conner]

I don't see why a rackmount PA crossover wouldn't work. They should be hi-fi enough to cope with the lower than optimal operating level from a guitar. Just send the hi-pass output to your guitar amp, and the low-pass output to a bass amp, a subwoofer, the PA, whatever.

The only issue might be if you try to drive it directly from the guitar. Rackmount gear usually has 10k input impedance, which will load a guitar down and make it sound different. But any pedals in the chain should buffer the impedance down enough.

[theunrulychef]

Originally Posted by Steve Conner

I don't see why a rackmount PA crossover wouldn't work. They should be hi-fi enough to cope with the lower than optimal operating level from a guitar. Just send the hi-pass output to your guitar amp, and the low-pass output to a bass amp, a subwoofer, the PA, whatever.

The only issue might be if you try to drive it directly from the guitar. Rackmount gear usually has 10k input impedance, which will load a guitar down and make it sound different. But any pedals in the chain should buffer the impedance down enough.

Cool thanks. Yeah, everything is running through a bunch of pedals first, I just didn't think the signal would work right with the rack/line level stuff. I'll take a look on the ebay. That would be much cheaper than building a new amp (though not as fun).

[Steve Conner]

I just remembered that Samson make a little 2-way crossover, not much bigger tha a stomp box.

http://www.samsontech.com/products/p...1750&brandID=2

[theunrulychef]

Cool, thanks Steve. That looks perfect & it's cheap to boot.