everyone is doing backflips over the Throbak paf clone - what do you guys make of ...

[trioderob]

everyone is doing backflips over the Throbak paf clone - what do you guys make of this ???

[Manlius]

I know he is a poster here, so perhaps he will chime in - saying that, I have a friend who has a few of his pedals, which are some of the most lovely sounding pedals I have gotten to toy with, so I would imagine his pickups are as compelling as his pedals. And he is a man who does extraordinary amounts of research.... which I always think is very important!

[David Schwab]

He has the same winder Gibson used on the originals, and he even has one of Gibson's old winders.

He makes some cool effects pedals too.

[madialex]

I smell a Leesona thread coming

[GlennW]

Sam Leesona?

[trioderob]

I just wanted to point out that as the OP of the thread I have no
affiliation with Throbak in any way.

I have just noted the reception of these pickups has been tremendous,

and I knew this was the hangout of some great pickup makers.

so what the hell - had to ask !

[salvarsan]

... and I knew this was the hangout of some great pickup makers.

There you go getting elistist on us.

What about all of us lousy pickup makers,
hmmm, Mr. Sensitive?

-drh

[trioderob]

There you go getting elistist on us.

What about all of us lousy pickup makers,
hmmm, Mr. Sensitive?

-drh

I am not sensitive.

Throbak is "kicking some ass and taking names"

(how that for ya ?)

[belwar]

everyone is doing backflips over the Throbak paf clone - what do you guys make of this ???

I cant comment on the sound as I haven't heard one personally, but I will say that he is coming very close in construction techniques. He has really done his homework. He's using the actual machines used, alloy correct parts (for the most part), and in some cases I believe he's used old wire. I dont think he's trying to emulate a sound, so much as emulate the pickup if that makes any sense. So far it seems to be doing very well.

Too bad the guy is such a douche.

The only step that he's missing I think is Butyrate bobbins. Speaking of which I just got my butyrate bobbin samples today.

b.

[Dave Kerr]

I have just noted the reception of these pickups has been tremendous,

Then he must be doing a lousy job of bucking that hum.

[Possum]

[JGundry]

Hey that's me. I'm the ThroBak guy. People do really like the pickups. Of course I'm very happy about it. My approach has been to make pickups with the best tools and parts I can get. Through persistence and luck I have gotten the best tools for winding PAF's IMO. Same goes for the parts but there seems to be unending room for improvement here. Supplies change specs. unannounced, delivery times change and that assumes the place will even agree to make what you want to begin with. And then of course you have to decide what your budget will allow when it comes to having custom parts made. And some guys certainly have a bigger budget than me. I make a variety of PAF style pickups that I think are a good representation of some of the best PAF tones out there. But just like everyone else I have to be happy with it first. And so far a lot of other people like what I like.

[belwar]

Hey that's me. I'm the ThroBak guy. People do really like the pickups. Of course I'm very happy about it. My approach has been to make pickups with the best tools and parts I can get. Through persistence and luck I have gotten the best tools for winding PAF's IMO. Same goes for the parts but there seems to be unending room for improvement here. Supplies change specs. unannounced, delivery times change and that assumes the place will even agree to make what you want to begin with. And then of course you have to decide what your budget will allow when it comes to having custom parts made. And some guys certainly have a bigger budget than me. I make a variety of PAF style pickups that I think are a good representation of some of the best PAF tones out there. But just like everyone else I have to be happy with it first. And so far a lot of other people like what I like.

Ok, so your not a douche. :>

In all seriousnous I think Jon's got real potential. He's got what looks like a nice product with excellent marketability. I see steady growth for a while to come

[dretot]

I cant comment on the sound as I haven't heard one personally, but I will say that he is coming very close in construction techniques. He has really done his homework. He's using the actual machines used, alloy correct parts (for the most part), and in some cases I believe he's used old wire. I dont think he's trying to emulate a sound, so much as emulate the pickup if that makes any sense. So far it seems to be doing very well.

Too bad the guy is such a douche.

The only step that he's missing I think is Butyrate bobbins. Speaking of which I just got my butyrate bobbin samples today.

b.

Alloy correct parts? old wire? I'm sorry, but I can't hold my tongue. I've tried several times to get a straight answer from Jon about his "nos" wire and he won't say a thing, not even the year it was produced. He always says, he doesn't want to give any hints of it's origin to his competitors. Well, I don't think telling us when the "nos" was made is going to give away anything. I was interested in his pu's at one point, but somethings fishy. I mean, don't people realize that "nos" could mean anything. That wire could be 5 years old for all we know............. loses some mystic, right? And, you don't need a leesona to wind an authentic paf clone, if you did than why aren't Seymours Antiquity's considered the ultimate paf clone? He's had a leesona forever.
Jon's been very successful and his pu's sound good, I don't think they sound like paf's though. Good marketing I guess.
One guy I know of that goes the extra mile in analyzing paf alloys and fabricating his own parts based on those results is Dave Stephens. If you truly want an authentic paf clone then check out his Vintage Lab clips on youtube. You'll be amazed at how close his pu's sound like paf's! Almost indistinguishable!

dre

[JGundry]

Alloy correct parts? old wire? I'm sorry, but I can't hold my tongue. I've tried several times to get a straight answer from Jon about his "nos" wire and he won't say a thing, not even the year it was produced. He always says, he doesn't want to give any hints of it's origin to his competitors. Well, I don't think telling us when the "nos" was made is going to give away anything. I was interested in his pu's at one point, but somethings fishy. I mean, don't people realize that "nos" could mean anything. That wire could be 5 years old for all we know............. loses some mystic, right? And, you don't need a leesona to wind an authentic paf clone, if you did than why aren't Seymours Antiquity's considered the ultimate paf clone? He's had a leesona forever.
Jon's been very successful and his pu's sound good, I don't think they sound like paf's though. Good marketing I guess.
One guy I know of that goes the extra mile in analyzing paf alloys and fabricating his own parts based on those results is Dave Stephens. If you truly want an authentic paf clone then check out his Vintage Lab clips on youtube. You'll be amazed at how close his pu's sound like paf's! Almost indistinguishable!

dre

dretot,

Dave's pickups do sound very good. And as far as the alloy testing etc. goes he does know the straight poop on that. In fact I split the cost with Dave on some of the tests and even supplied a keeper bar to be sacrificed for the project. And as an extension of this project I also put up all the $ for an entire order of 45,000 vintage correct alloy pole screws as I had the funds to do it. I happily split the order with Dave and Wade of Motor City pickups as it made the screws affordable for all concerned. Many, many more of these details have been generously and privately shared by me, Dave and other makers that are interested recreating our own version of a PAF. I have not mentioned it before because I don't want to step on any toes. Dave has put a lot of time into the alloys and for him it is a good marketing avenue. I have put a lot of time into the winding patterns and machines. There are so many details that can be finessed that Dave certainly has a claim to making a unique product as do I and any other makers out there. But really Dave is not working in a vacuum and neither am I and neither are other makers out there.

[David Schwab]

I happily split the order with Dave and Wade of Motor City pickups as it made the screws affordable for all concerned.

If those are the same screws that Wade sent me, those are really nice sounding screws. I had a couple of Stew-mac kits laying around, and wound up some pickups and then swapped the screws for those, and it was a big difference. They also exhibited stronger magnetic pull.

Regarding:

And, you don't need a leesona to wind an authentic paf clone, if you did than why aren't Seymours Antiquity's considered the ultimate paf clone? He's had a leesona forever.

I'm going to say something that has been brought up a few times... there's always this discussion about who has the most authentic PAF clone. But you can only compare a new PAF style pickup to a sample of the original PAF's, and they often sounded very different.

So I think each pickup maker chooses an authentic PAF flavor... Duncan has several for example. I know some people who swear by them, and others who love the DiMarzio PAFs. In the end it's what you like. If the real PAF's were the best for everyone, then people wouldn't have been replacing them with DiMarzios and Duncans back in the 70's.

It's like what the legendary bassist Chuck Rainey said about Fender P bass pickups: "if the old ones were so good, why does everyone replace them?"

I think worrying about whether a pickup is an exact repro of a 50 year old pickup is pointless if that doesn't suit your needs. And as Dave has pointed out, you probably wont get the same tone as the old recordings you hear, since you don't know what the signal chain was, etc. People play different now, strings are different, amps are higher gain...

Like Letterman says, "It's an exhibition, not a competition" there is no right or wrong, it's just what you like. You like a pickup's tone, or you don't. All these guys make great sounding pickups, and they each do it in their own way. Jon has the Leesona, Dave has his super secret Wayback machine, Spence hand winds, and I don't know what Wade does... but I think it concerns firearms.

[David Schwab]

In all seriousnous I think Jon's got real potential. He's got what looks like a nice product with excellent marketability. I see steady growth for a while to come

Did you once work on Wall Street? What's the Canadian version of Wall street?

[Jag]

Bay Street

[David Schwab]

Bay Street

We have a Bay Street train station here in town.

[J S Moore]

We have a Bay Street train station here in town.

Hey! So do we!

[NightWinder]

If those are the same screws that Wade sent me, those are really nice sounding screws. I had a couple of Stew-mac kits laying around, and wound up some pickups and then swapped the screws for those, and it was a big difference. They also exhibited stronger magnetic pull.

Regarding:



I'm going to say something that has been brought up a few times... there's always this discussion about who has the most authentic PAF clone. But you can only compare a new PAF style pickup to a sample of the original PAF's, and they often sounded very different.

So I think each pickup maker chooses an authentic PAF flavor... Duncan has several for example. I know some people who swear by them, and others who love the DiMarzio PAFs. In the end it's what you like. If the real PAF's were the best for everyone, then people wouldn't have been replacing them with DiMarzios and Duncans back in the 70's.

It's like what the legendary bassist Chuck Rainey said about Fender P bass pickups: "if the old ones were so good, why does everyone replace them?"

I think worrying about whether a pickup is an exact repro of a 50 year old pickup is pointless if that doesn't suit your needs. And as Dave has pointed out, you probably wont get the same tone as the old recordings you hear, since you don't know what the signal chain was, etc. People play different now, strings are different, amps are higher gain...

Like Letterman says, "It's an exhibition, not a competition" there is no right or wrong, it's just what you like. You like a pickup's tone, or you don't. All these guys make great sounding pickups, and they each do it in their own way. Jon has the Leesona, Dave has his super secret Wayback machine, Spence hand winds, and I don't know what Wade does... but I think it concerns firearms.

Usually just gas and matches Dave. I'll take the firearm though for a rainy day.....I also trade pickups for stelletto (top release)

[NightWinder]

Alloy correct parts? old wire? I'm sorry, but I can't hold my tongue. I've tried several times to get a straight answer from Jon about his "nos" wire and he won't say a thing, not even the year it was produced. He always says, he doesn't want to give any hints of it's origin to his competitors. Well, I don't think telling us when the "nos" was made is going to give away anything. I was interested in his pu's at one point, but somethings fishy. I mean, don't people realize that "nos" could mean anything. That wire could be 5 years old for all we know............. loses some mystic, right? And, you don't need a leesona to wind an authentic paf clone, if you did than why aren't Seymours Antiquity's considered the ultimate paf clone? He's had a leesona forever.
Jon's been very successful and his pu's sound good, I don't think they sound like paf's though. Good marketing I guess.
One guy I know of that goes the extra mile in analyzing paf alloys and fabricating his own parts based on those results is Dave Stephens. If you truly want an authentic paf clone then check out his Vintage Lab clips on youtube. You'll be amazed at how close his pu's sound like paf's! Almost indistinguishable!

dre

Dave Stevens Coils sound nice and bright- Even in the neck position. I have a set of his coils.
I think you may be misunderstanding the wire a bit- It was made to old stock spec. Actual wire diameter and insulation. Who knows when it was made? Who cares? Is it spec'd wire. Is it correct Plain enamel or regulated? It could have been made in the late 70's but with todays technology a custom run batch willl be very consistant compared to older runs. Don't get so stinky about Jon retaining information. NOS is enough to know...

[dretot]

Dave Stevens Coils sound nice and bright- Even in the neck position. I have a set of his coils.
I think you may be misunderstanding the wire a bit- It was made to old stock spec. Actual wire diameter and insulation. Who knows when it was made? Who cares? Is it spec'd wire. Is it correct Plain enamel or regulated? It could have been made in the late 70's but with todays technology a custom run batch willl be very consistant compared to older runs. Don't get so stinky about Jon retaining information. NOS is enough to know...

NightWinder,
I fully understand what's going on with the wire, but you just gave me more info about it than Jon ever did. And I have to respectfully disagree with you. I care when it was made and saying "nos" is not enough to know for me if I'm shelling out $500 for a set. When I'm buying nos tubes I can check manufacturer and date codes so that I know what I am buying, be it a 50's or 60's or 70's tube. And actually, 42 plain enamel wire produced today, even 5 years ago, is very inconsistent and is not the correct diameter plus the insulation is thicker that original paf wire.
Sorry for coming off as "stinky". I just want straight answers when I have questions about a product.

dre

[Dave Kerr]

saying "nos" is not enough to know for me if I'm shelling out $500 for a set.

Well, that's the beauty of the marketplace - you're free to find someone else who's more forthcoming with his sourcing. WB makes a nice sounding PAF, I doubt that Jon would shed a tear over losing your business.

[JGundry]

NightWinder,
I fully understand what's going on with the wire, but you just gave me more info about it than Jon ever did. And I have to respectfully disagree with you. I care when it was made and saying "nos" is not enough to know for me if I'm shelling out $500 for a set. When I'm buying nos tubes I can check manufacturer and date codes so that I know what I am buying, be it a 50's or 60's or 70's tube. And actually, 42 plain enamel wire produced today, even 5 years ago, is very inconsistent and is not the correct diameter plus the insulation is thicker that original paf wire.
Sorry for coming off as "stinky". I just want straight answers when I have questions about a product.

dre

Dretot this is your third post and it bears all the earmarks of a troll.

Pickups makers know what the specific attributes of NOS wire. Right now I could tell you where to buy some NOS 42AWG PE from 1952 and I could tell were to buy some NOS 42 PE from 2002. Both vendors call this wire NOS PE. The vendor that stocks the wire from 2002 only has bottom of the barrel wire at this point and it frankly sucks, they want $45.00 per lb. for it last time I checked. The asking price for the wire from 1952 is $60.00 per lb. which is way too high for me to be interested plus it is a complete unknown quantity. My NOS wire comes from neither of these suppliers. Many companies used to make this wire and it surfaces now and then. But getting hung up on the date is pointless IMO. I guarantee you if I said the wire came from 1952 a good number of people would claim the wire is too old and the coils will be prone to failure. If I said it came from the 2002 a bunch of people would say it was junk because it was made from different copper. Both of these opinions would have little basis in fact. Right now there are two companies that I know could make the correct wire today if they wanted to. It is not a mystery how to do it. The old machines that drew the wire were not pushed of a cliff in 1962. Frankly the risk in buying NOS wire is that some place will decide to make it to the correct specs. again thus making the NOS wire overpriced. I represent my stuff fairly and accurately on my site. I offer way more specifics about the entire process than most. But if there is not enough NOS information for you to feel secure I completely understand..

[dretot]

Well, that's the beauty of the marketplace - you're free to find someone else who's more forthcoming with his sourcing. WB makes a nice sounding PAF, I doubt that Jon would shed a tear over losing your business.

Dave,
I don't want Jon to feel bad for not getting my business, heck, I know you can't please everyone all the time. If you read my initial post, you'll see I've already found a paf clone that sounds "right", to me.

dre

[dretot]

Dretot this is your third post and it bears all the earmarks of a troll.

Pickups makers know what the specific attributes of NOS wire. Right now I could tell you where to buy some NOS 42AWG PE from 1952 and I could tell were to buy some NOS 42 PE from 2002. Both vendors call this wire NOS PE. The vendor that stocks the wire from 2002 only has bottom of the barrel wire at this point and it frankly sucks, they want $45.00 per lb. for it last time I checked. The asking price for the wire from 1952 is $60.00 per lb. which is way too high for me to be interested plus it is a complete unknown quantity. My NOS wire comes from neither of these suppliers. Many companies used to make this wire and it surfaces now and then. But getting hung up on the date is pointless IMO. I guarantee you if I said the wire came from 1952 a good number of people would claim the wire is too old and the coils will be prone to failure. If I said it came from the 2002 a bunch of people would say it was junk because it was made from different copper. Both of these opinions would have little basis in fact. Right now there are two companies that I know could make the correct wire today if they wanted to. It is not a mystery how to do it. The old machines that drew the wire were not pushed of a cliff in 1962. Frankly the risk in buying NOS wire is that some place will decide to make it to the correct specs. again thus making the NOS wire overpriced. I represent my stuff fairly and accurately on my site. I offer way more specifics about the entire process than most. But if there is not enough NOS information for you to feel secure I completely understand..

Jon,
Hold on a minute there buddy, I don't appreciate being called a troll. I know I have a low post count here so it seems like I came out of nowhere, but without listing all my credits I've been a professional musician since I was 15 and I'm 45 now. I'm not some bozo just looking to stir crap up. I've been chasing paf tone for a long time and I definitely have a strong opinion on what I like and don't like. As far as it being my 3rd post, well I was merely replying to the responses.
I appreciate your reply and explanation and I apologize for my comments if they came off as an attack on you, I honestly did not intend to do that, but the troll comment was out of line.

dre

[NightWinder]

NightWinder,
I fully understand what's going on with the wire, but you just gave me more info about it than Jon ever did. And I have to respectfully disagree with you. I care when it was made and saying "nos" is not enough to know for me if I'm shelling out $500 for a set. When I'm buying nos tubes I can check manufacturer and date codes so that I know what I am buying, be it a 50's or 60's or 70's tube. And actually, 42 plain enamel wire produced today, even 5 years ago, is very inconsistent and is not the correct diameter plus the insulation is thicker that original paf wire.
Sorry for coming off as "stinky". I just want straight answers when I have questions about a product.

dre

Tubes are tubes..Apples and oranges y'know? I was kinda poking around that some of us are custom ordering wire also to personal spec so the game changes considerably to what is available from just placing a call and ordering off the shelf......

[dretot]

Tubes are tubes..Apples and oranges y'know? I was kinda poking around that some of us are custom ordering wire also to personal spec so the game changes considerably to what is available from just placing a call and ordering off the shelf......

Nightwinder,
Thanks,
yeah, I understand what your saying.

dre

[soundmasterg]

Dretot,

The troll comment came about because of how you presented yourself.....you attacked one maker and then crowed about another in the same post....which traditionally isn't done here.....it is often a tactic used by trolls. Many of these pickup makers collaborate on parts orders, ideas about winding, etc., outside of this forum, and then things are discussed here also. Before this forum was here, it was a different one someplace else, and guys like Wolfe and Jason used to collaborate just like guys do here nowadays. That other site was going away and Tboy helped everyone out and hosted it here, and yes it is a really nice place with great info and lots of good, knowledgeable posters....but keep in mind that there are things in this industry like any other that are kind of like insider information, and these guys would be remiss if they didn't work together to get the parts they need as accurately as possible, and that kind of thing is almost never on a public forum someplace. There is always stuff going on behind the scenes between the various makers. They're kind of in their own little club in a way, and pointing fingers at one to pump up another isn't appreciated by anyone here. Both Dave and Jon make excellent pickups, and excellent PAF clones as do quite a few others here.

Greg

[Possum]

This thread should have never happened, the initial poster broke the rules of this forum, this is not a place to compare maker's products or post reviews or sell one's work etc. This has been an unwritten rule on thie forum from day one. I know the original post was not a troll post but it sure had the same effect :-) Where the hell is Dr. Strangelove when you need him? How much are we paying that guy anyway?

[DrStrangelove]

Where the hell is Dr. Strangelove when you need him? How much are we paying that guy anyway?

Please don't wake the Immoderator when he is working.

More seriously, you guys moderated this forum just fine.

You identified the infraction, notified folks of the general
ground rules, were civil in manner, and never once insulted
the guys' Mothers or called them Nazis.

...but, by golly!, it doesn't hafta be that way.

-The Immoderator

[dretot]

Greg,
O.k. I just got back and re-read the whole thread. You're right, I did come off troll-ish. I totally understand, and again, I apologize for how I came across and I would like to say to Jon that I in no way wanted to discredit him or his pu's.
Thanks for explaining that to me Greg.

dre

[soundmasterg]

Yah its not a problem Dre....I could see as the posts went on that you weren't a troll, but some of the behavoir came across that way. I think we're all cool now. I figured I'd give you a heads up about etiquette here as I've been one of the longest members and helped to get the site here on Ampage along with Wolfe when it was going away from where it was previously hosted like 10 years ago or something. Its a cool place, but every once in awhile someone new comes along as causes issues, so its good to let people know the skinny here before things get out of control sometimes.

Greg

[Possum]

Mine's longer