I'd like to start making my own flatwork out of Forbon instead of buying them. What is the best way for a novice with limited tools to cut them out acurately? I'm sure that a razor knife wont "cut-it", haha. Is there a good way to make some sort of template and use a router?
Thanks,
Stan
I pointed this out in another thread but I guess no one saw it- these have been selling for $200
http://cgi.ebay.com/Basic-Pickup-Win...ayphotohosting
the guy wants 7 buy it now
it will tell you all about making flatwork
basically you just make some jigs and use a router and a drill press- you can make anything
Wow, Jason... someone snapped that book up! I would have if I saw the post in time.I bet they are going to sell it for more.
Getting to the flatwork. You can indeed make a router template.
There's a few ways to do it, and you can use a router table or a hand held router.
I haven't made flatwork this way yet (but I plan to), but I do make things like truss rod and control covers...it's the same principle.
Get something to make your pattern from. You can use something like 1/4 plywood. Shape it exactly like the flatwork. You can even use a commercial flat as a guide. Then get a larger piece of plywood to serve as a base.
Drill a couple of holes in the pattern, you can do these where the outside two magnets are, but make them smaller than the magnets.
Now either glue or otherwise attach the pattern to the base.
Now when you want to cut some flatwork, start by roughing out the shape on several pieces, so you don't have to remove too much material.
Screw these to the pattern, though the holes, with counter sunk flat head screws... you may need to have a top piece that is just to bury the screws into (i.e. the holes can be slightly larger). It can be made from wood also.
Then use a router with a ball bearing pattern bit. You want the bearing to be near the tip of the bit... you can get them two ways. The other way has the bearing near the collet. Set the depth so the bearing rides on the wooden pattern, while the bit cuts the flatwork.
You can also do this with a router table... you will just be working upside down. If you do that you have to come up with a way to keep the template base steady and level.
You can also make a jig to drill your holes in the flatwork.
When I started building guitars I read a lot of wood working books and magazines which gave a me a lot of good ideas to work with for jigs and fixtures.
It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein
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I had seen it but not in timeOriginally Posted by jason lollar
I've been looking for that book for a while now. Any chance of a reprint?
And to the threadstarter, I have used the method David described and it works great once you have it all set up, however, I find myself attaching my flatwork to the jig and cutting around it with a very sharp chisel to be easier faster, and just as accurate if you are only shaping 2 or 3 at a time.
I use Lollar's method (get the book) and use a routing table. Using a router to cut out flatwork is fairly dangerous. You must trim the flatwork to about 1/16 inch outside the edge of the template, if you don't, Forbon is real grabby with router bits and if it grabs too much material it will fling the whole thing violently outward. If you flinch and panic you could end up catching parts of your hand in the router bit and lose a good chunk of meat if not your whole finger. This is a learned skill and can be done but I dread it everytime I have to use this method, especially on a real tiny piece like a tele neck top which is really small. I never used a router before I got Lollar's book and had some pretty terrifying moments with that thing. Its kind of useless to just cut one piece so I stack the pieces up to 5 high which increases the risk of the router bit grabbing and flinging it. So yes it can be done but its not real safe either :-) Screwing it down and routing from the top to me would seem really slow. But learning to rout forbon flatwork is a supremely valuable skill because then you can make anything you want. But when you gotta make 100 of them its ridiculous to do it this way....
http://www.SDpickups.com
Stephens Design Pickups
The router table is the way to go. The grabbing makes me wonder if your router spins fast enough, is powerful enough, and/or the blade is sharp enough. Forbon is no denser than say hard maple.
A shaper could be a better approach. A shaper is like a router in a router table. The advantage is that because one does not have to lift the motor, it can be larger and faster than in a router, so it will cut faster with far less danger of grabbing. That said, shapers are more than capable of trimming one's fingers off to an even length, so guards and templates are required.
Get a mini mill and make a cutter which will punch the holes out at the same time.
Hmmm, that sounds interesting. Any resources?
~Stan
Last edited by Stan H; 11-26-2006 at 07:04 PM.
I haven't cut forbon this way, but I don't usually have a problem with router bits grabbing either. It is important to use a large base for the template, and to secure that to your work bench, and move the router in the direction of the cut.
They are harder to find, but spiral bits are the way to go, and you can get downward and upward bits... which will either hold the work down to the pattern if using an overhead router, or down to the table for a table mounted router.
A router table is the best way to go, as long as you have a jig that will keep your fingers away from the bit.
The grabbing sounds like too slow a router speed, or a dull bit. (just like Joe said).
You can use a chisel or a sharp knife, but that don't work well for other materials.
Another idea is to use the pattern meathod and then get a RoboSander.
These would be ideal for Forbon, but you have to adjust your pattern slightly, because they never seem to do exact sizes. (or make a new bearing wheel)
I've actually been using one of these freehand when shaping one off pickups, like my recent stacked Tele experiment (made from PC board). That was all scored with a razor blade too...
The beauty of using a pattern is for repeatability.
It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein
www.sgd-lutherie.com
www.myspace.com/sgdlutherie
www.myspace.com/davidschwab
well maybe my router bit isn't as sharp as it used to be but I had that problem from the beginning. No the router isn't too slow, its a standard large size router, high speed with table. Forbon isn't like wood, its a compressed paper product and has some kind of resin in it as well. My bit isn't real fat, maybe thats a problem? But for sure if I got 1/4 inch of forbon sticking out the edge of the template the bit will grab it and throw the piece because the bit has sunk in too much and is grabbing too much material. You need to have a real firm grip on the piece your feeding, a light grip and it will for sure fling that thing into the wall. If you've never used a router before you need to be real careful or your guitar playing days could be ended real fast.
What is ideal is a laser cutter.......
http://www.SDpickups.com
Stephens Design Pickups
Cutting out flatwork doesn't have to be a nightmare.
I have to agree with Possum that forbon does present a severe hazard when cutting with a router. So this is what I use:
It's a hand nibbler used in sheet metal cutting. It doesn't curl or distort the material as it cuts and does beautiful straight edges. With a little practise you can even cut curves. Holes for magnets can easily be drilled with a drill press after acurately marking the holes with an automatic centre punch. The flatwork can then be filed or sanded.
This method works, is pretty quick and beats the crap out of getting someone else to do it for you.
having done this kind of work with routers for 35 years- its all I have ever done I can attest there is nothing inherently dangerous about using a router and forbon.
I have all 10 fingers and have cut out over 10,000 pieces with this method and never had it grab BUT having trained many people I can also say there is a way to fuck everything up in ways I never imagined.
there is no resin in forbon- grabbing is probably how much you feeed in in what direction against the rotation or with and if it was on a raduis of the jig or a flat spot
It may be time to buy a new carbide router bit. Steel probably dulls too quickly.
What is the diameter of the bit? The smaller the bit the higher the required RPMs. The key is the speed of the cutting edge, in feet per minute. A larger diameter bit may be the key.
There is also a limit to how fast one can cut, although the highr the RPMs the faster one can cut without burning or grabbing.
There is no resin in forbon. Forbon is basically brown paper that's been steeped in a zinc chloride solution, which turns the cellulose into a kind of gel. The gelled paper is then pressed, and then the ZnCl is washed out, and the cellulose reverts to type, welding the layers together. http://www.nvf.com/news/news.htm
Anyway, fobon is no harder to route than wood.
Why is it then that the Forbon flats I used to buy from SK all had gooey edges from the laser cutting? No resin? I had to wash these damn things in alcohol to get that sticky stuff off.
Yeh I probably had bad technique in the beginning using the router table, I haven't had one thrown from my hands in a long time but occasionally if the stack I'm cutting tilts a tiny bit the router bit will dig into it real quick and can destroy the template in the process. My whole point was that for a beginner a router is a dangerous tool, so if you get one and never had one before be darn careful; that thing still is the scariest piece of equipment I have and still hate cutting tele neck tops on it. Router tables generally have all these safety guards and fences but they are useless when cutting tiny pieces.....
http://www.SDpickups.com
Stephens Design Pickups
Micromark sell mini mills for modellers. You really don't need anything bigger. They also sell a mini lathe. Both these items have metal gear wheels too.
It depends on how much you want to do this. If you really wanted to cut this stuff so badly try using a band saw before lashing out the cash. They're good enough for cutting pick guards.
The heat of the laser may be doing something chemical to the reverted gel (which isn't really paper any more). A better test would be to mechanically cut a piece of forbon and see if alcohol dissolves anything resinous.
Not that many resins will dissolve in alcohol. Perhaps SK seals his forbon with shellac.
OK. Tables are still safer than handheld routers for such small things because there is more control and better visibility.
But I still think you need a new, sharp carbide bit, perhaps of larger diameter than you currently use. Dull cutting tools greatly increase the danger, as does too low a cutter speed. Digging and catching implies that the bit isn't cutting nearly fast enough, and I don't think that forbon is the reason.
there is no resin in the forbon but having a laser cutter I can tell you the residue left is a prossess of anything burning, its not resin in the forbon is smoke that leaves a residue- put a piece of wood in the laser cutter and you get a sticky residue left on the cut- paper, plastic, bone anything
"My whole point was that for a beginner a router is a dangerous tool, so if you get one and never had one before be darn careful; that thing still is the scariest piece of equipment I have and still hate cutting tele neck tops on it. Router tables generally have all these safety guards and fences but they are useless when cutting tiny pieces....."
wise words
__________________
Thats a really nice top on that guitar!!
Thanks! I found that piece of wood in a local lumber yard. It was dirty and just stacked in with all the other maple. I brought a small plane with my and when I noticed the end grain looked figured, I planed off a small patch and saw it had really nice figure.
It was cheap too! I used to resaw all my tops.. saves a lot of money.
Last edited by David Schwab; 12-04-2006 at 04:14 PM.
It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein
www.sgd-lutherie.com
www.myspace.com/sgdlutherie
www.myspace.com/davidschwab
You can always rough cut with a nibbler or saw then use a belt sander to get precise. I use a drill press for the magnet holes. I have a background in grinding and I feel a hell of a lot more comfortable with a belt sander than a router for small peices. It takes practice though to get straight lines and smooth curves using this method.
Ok, you guys have me interested in the router idea now. Like I said, I've been doing fine with the belt sander but the idea of being able to do 3-5 pieces of flatwork at a time has me curious. I have a router table and some carbide bits that should work, but I've never had to build router templates before. What do you figure is the best way to go about this. I was screwing around with some 1/4" plywood last night and I couldn't figure out how to get it within tolerances that were acceptable to me. On a side note, I really would like to keep all my digits as playing guitar happens to be one of my favorite past times. I agree with Dave that this seems to be a dangerous game.
use plexiglass, if you have a Tap Plastics near you they have a bin of scraps for real cheap, I think 1/4" or slightly thicker works. Use double sided carpet tape to stick the layers together. Its probably the carpet tape that makes the router bit grab real hard, yeh be real careful unless you want to play like Django...
http://www.SDpickups.com
Stephens Design Pickups
Make the template two layers fastened together, one layer with the smaller hole, the other for clearance. Use a router bit with a ball bearing that rides on the edge of the template. The spacer generates a gap between template and stack of forbon sheets being cut, so the corners of the cutting blades run in air.
Build into the template setup some kind of handle, so you can keep fingers well away from the action.
Don't expect to be able to see through the plexiglass - it will quickly become covered with dust.
I posted this over at the MIMF forum...
I made a template for cutting truss rod covers. It was a piece of MDF the exact shape of the cover. I made this from a cover I liked by screwing it to the MDF and using a router with template bearing bit.
I attached this pattern to a larger piece of wood, about a foot square. I would screw my material to the top and use the pattern bit.
As a variation, you can make one like this, which has the advantage of stopping the router from tipping. Take some plywood or MDF and take a piece of flatwork that you want to copy, and attach it to the MDF, either using screws of double stick tape. Use a router with a top mounted bearing to cut a channel around the flatwork, and then up against the flatwork to form the shape.
After you are done, you can remove the flatwork.
Now you can stack up a few layers of flatwork, attached using counter sunk screws, to the top of the pattern. These screws would be in two holes that would be where the poles would go. You can take another piece of flatwork, or thin ply wood or plastic, to use on the top if you need, so you can make the counter sunk holes in that, to bury the screw head.
This way you would take a rough shaped piece of flatwork, or a small stack, and rout the exact shape. This pattern helps you from tipping the router because you are routing into a recess channel. If needed, you can add spacers to the bottom of the router base with double stick tape to match the hight of the stack.
I never had to do that for the truss rod covers, but I was routing one at a time.
You can use a small laminate trimmer, which might be easier to handle than a full size router.
When I started building my basses, I spent a lot of time figuring out how to make jigs for just about every step, to help keep things consistent and repeatable.
I use routers for everything from shaping the fingerboard taper, cutting out the exact shape of the body (rough cut on a band saw), cutting truss rod and carbon fiber rod channels, rounding over the body, etc.
If you are careful you wont harm yourself. The number one rule... unplug machines before changing the cutters!And don't try to handle small parts you are trying to machine. That's the purpose for this template.
This is a rough drawing of the idea, the inside shape is your pattern:
It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein
www.sgd-lutherie.com
www.myspace.com/sgdlutherie
www.myspace.com/davidschwab
I like it. For the router table, I was thinking of just this kind of setup, only used face down. One can drill some viewport holes all the way through, and it helps somewhat, but one really must use such a template by feel.I posted this over at the MIMF forum...
[snip]
I made a template for cutting truss rod covers. It was a piece of MDF the exact shape of the cover. I made this from a cover I liked by screwing it to
This is a rough drawing of the idea, the inside shape is your pattern:
There will be dust everywhere. It might be useful to fit a hose attachment so a shop vacuum can be atteched. Don't forget to provide air holes (like the viewports) to let the air in, so the shopvac can generate a nice airflow.
In any case, make sure that there is a "template" around the outside, upon which the ball bearing will ride if one accidentally strays to the outside, which will happen no matter how careful one is.
Given the dangers of routers and the number of pieces to be made, day in day out, this setup needs to be fool-proof.
I think a router table would be the safest way to use something like this. I never had a good one to try it. I had a cheap one that used to flex too much to do anything accurate.
It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure. — Albert Einstein
www.sgd-lutherie.com
www.myspace.com/sgdlutherie
www.myspace.com/davidschwab
Have you ever tried using Micarta for flatwork? Is there any reason you can think of that I should not use it?
Thanks from a newbie.
Rossco
A very old thread here...
The reasons not to use it are that it's not very stable, as humidity changes it tends to curl up slightly.
It's extremely hard to cut and drill smoothly without carbide tooling.
It has no give so you have to size your holes more carefully when inserting magnets.
I've been hearing formica kicked around.
I haven't tried it.
Is it easily glued with super glue?
Not sure the exact application.
I'm sure it could be used like forbon and the fancy colors on top would look cool.
I make some Strat neck pickups with non standard hole spacing.
With no plastic cover available to fit the pickup, The formica would look cool as a top piece of the bobbin.
T
Keep Rockin!
Terry
Hmmm, Formica...Did a little research and so far that looks very interesting. I wonder how it would effect a PUP tonally?
Gives it that 1950s Kitchen sound.
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