Why is it guitar builders won't pay a living wage?

[voodoochild]

Well you have to do what you love to do. The rest will come as you stick with it. In regards to school, it can be a great thing for some. When I was at RV I took in as much as possible and kept good notes. I even learned from other students. As I stated before it gave me the jump start to gain experience faster than someone with no knowledge at all. Knowledge is nothing without experience but experience can take forever to gain without any prior knowledge. School teaches you how to learn and find/use legit sources of information. It doesn't help you make money right away. It helps you skip the BS and go for the experience that will help you the best. That's all. The rest is up to you.

[Capacitordeath]

I'm gonna add my two cents in on this as well, but from a slightly different angle.

As an owner of a Bachelor's Degree in Art Education, I can safely say that there is near nothing in my field that will pay a living wage. I did not go for a teaching credential, as I'm sort of waiting for an up-swing of interest in the Art and Music k-12 education, so I cannot work there. Graphic Design in this area pays 10/hr if you're lucky. Architectural firms was CAD engineers, Print media is shrinking, and the specs for a clean website do not balance on artistic skills as much as the ability to code. If a person of my education can find a job in-field that pays 30K + (which still isn't really a living wage in CA), stay with it.

Now, I've got a friend with a music degree who is even less hireable. The fact is that unless you're willing to live the hard life for your art, you ain't gettin' nowheres. Musicians have to do a lot of not eating in the back of a van, and artists need to to a lot of not eating in the back of a cheap art studio in the bad neighborhood, and you're in a trade who caters to these people. If you sell to poor people, you'll be poor yourself! WEEE!

The fact is, you spent a large sum of money to become a part-time hobbyist, unless you were to contact the big guys and see if you can be a head-drone in their foreign guitar-gluing factories. I wish you luck in your journey, but as i'm in deeper than you are with loans, I wish you less luck than me. hehehe

BTW, there was a lot of constructive criticism, and some righteous response to your sort of ranty opening post, and I expect you understand why you got it. Hasserl, on the other hand, was over-the-top and offensive. I'm hoping there's less than a handful of flamers like him on here.

[thumbs]

I would suggest that you go where the gear is; maybe Nashville or Austin. If your products are worthy you will be noticed. All of the techs and repair guys I deal with have work stacked up. Also it would be a great opportunity to get some feedback on your designs from pro players. Maybe win an endorsement or two. Another place to find work might be a company that rents gear like S.I.R. Most of them have a backlog of stuff awaiting repair but are unwilling to pay a $50/hr. bench tech to fix it. $12 to $15/hr. should be attainable. Good luck with your job search!

[voodoochild]

Originally Posted by thumbs

I would suggest that you go where the gear is; maybe Nashville or Austin. If your products are worthy you will be noticed. All of the techs and repair guys I deal with have work stacked up. Also it would be a great opportunity to get some feedback on your designs from pro players. Maybe win an endorsement or two. Another place to find work might be a company that rents gear like S.I.R. Most of them have a backlog of stuff awaiting repair but are unwilling to pay a $50/hr. bench tech to fix it. $12 to $15/hr. should be attainable. Good luck with your job search!

Yes location is everything. If you are really good but in a flooded market, you won't have a chance unless you are lucky. Find a location that has a lot of potential for business but very little competition. Trust me they do exist. You just have to research. You have to start local to get a name for yourself.

[Peter Naglitsch]

Originally Posted by EffectsGuru

you have to understand, 8.00 and hour is a joke

Once again I have to disagree. I do not know about the minimum vague in US, but here in Europe that is pretty much the standard minimum vague in any industry. As I have told you before, someone coming from RV isn’t THAT much better, or THAT more productive to account for them 4 extra bucks. But if you are willing to have a go and take that entry level job you will very soon be able to show your commitments and your skills and you will be moved to higher skilled duties and get better pay.

Originally Posted by EffectsGuru

the teachers there told us all about it.

And were you awake during that class? If yes, why are you surprised?

Originally Posted by EffectsGuru

I just wish I had known when I signed up that they don't pay a living wage to start.

Wake up! They try to sell you a very expensive course. Why would they advertise it like “you will have to pay 50 grand and you will regardless of that only get 8 bucks an hour”. You should have done your homework and asked around to see what guitar builder/repairmen pays. If you were lucky someone might have hired you because you showed some interest. You would still only get 8 $ but you wouldn’t have to pay for the RV course…

[voodoochild]

Wake up! They try to sell you a very expensive course. Why would they advertise it like “you will have to pay 50 grand and you will regardless of that only get 8 bucks an hour”. You should have done your homework and asked around to see what guitar builder/repairmen pays. If you were lucky someone might have hired you because you showed some interest. You would still only get 8 $ but you wouldn’t have to pay for the RV course…[/QUOTE]
In defense of RV, it was pretty reasonable when I went. Something like $5 or 6 thousand bucks for 6 months. I know it wasn't out of site. I have no idea what they charge now but it certainly isn't 50 grand!

[Capacitordeath]

The price seems right for the right person, for sure, but did the school sell itself on a immediate turn of profit on completion? I kind of doubt it.

It's kind of like those amp-building seminars. You pay 1-2k, and you leave with an amp you build yourself. There's no guarantee of wealth, just a guarantee of the enjoyment of crafting a beautiful instrument. If your school was preaching about the hireability at graduation, it was a little conniving of them, but still within their rights. Academy of Arts schools do it as well, and has cooked numbers to prove it. heheh

[voodoochild]

Originally Posted by Capacitordeath

The price seems right for the right person, for sure, but did the school sell itself on a immediate turn of profit on completion? I kind of doubt it.

It's kind of like those amp-building seminars. You pay 1-2k, and you leave with an amp you build yourself. There's no guarantee of wealth, just a guarantee of the enjoyment of crafting a beautiful instrument. If your school was preaching about the hireability at graduation, it was a little conniving of them, but still within their rights. Academy of Arts schools do it as well, and has cooked numbers to prove it. heheh

I certainly didn't make any money when I got out. I lived off of others for almost 5 years before I started to make money. But I did get a good wealth of information which headed me into the right direction. Now I am blessed in that I do make money(not a lot but a living) doing what I like to do. The thing is everyone should know like any business, schools, colleges, etc, are out to make money. Certain ones lose focus on education and try to pump students through for a worthless degree. If you don't have a clue what you are trying to get out of the education before you go in, you won't have a clue about anything when you get out.

[1guitarman]

I have been playing guitar for 43 years, never made more than beer money in any venue, I absolutly love the guitar, studied it on my own for the last 10 years, how to build-setup-repair-etc. and finally got up the nerve to try to build my own..."Lil Lester"...I now have a fantastic, custom made, solid mahogany body/maple top/mahogany neck single pickup blues monster...I'm a Plumber...Did I start out @ 30 bucks an hour?...I wish, I started out @ 5 bucks an hour...married and trying to pay the bills, Bro, there's a start to everything, Do I expect to sell my guitar for 2 or 3 thousand dollars, not on your life, no one knows me, only a few have had the pleasure to play this lil booger and even fewer have heard it...It cost me 15 years of knuckle busting and wading thru gallons of shit, to get to the $15 an hour mark in plumbing, been at it quite a while now, I have a name and a rep. for doing good work, so now after 20 years in the business I can say I make a living wage...Guitar building? for money?...yea, Ok, the ONE I built is GREAT, will I build another? probably, Will I try to make a living at it?...YA GOTTA BE KIDDING! everyone who falls in love with thier guitar wants to be a famous builder/player...for everyONE who makes a living at it, there are 100 who are living off thier wives waitress job...start slow/build up speed..."IF" it's what you want...You'll get there...90% of the job is just "WANT TO"...Peace and good luck

[Wmacky]

My guess is that 90% of the people that didn't go to college with a well planned path to a career in a well paying "Hiring" industry, HATE their job. But you do what you must to earn a living. Welcome to my life. The prospects for enjoyable well paid work seem to diminsish more and more as world economy changes. Lots of the cool work for the non white collar worker has gone overseas, and now pays one bowl of rice for a days work. It's my theory that in the distant future every Corporation will have only 2 U.S. based employes. The CEO, and the dude that cleans his office, and bathroom.

This should be your plan if you like living wages.

My "young" cousin became an RN a few years back even though he had no interest in it. He started making big money right away, and he's is now clearing $1600 a week. A WEEK! He hates his job, but all the toys makes it worth it. This should be your plan. You would have the extra cash to build your own high end shop out back, and with a giant beautiful home in front. you need to quickly decide how you want to live. You could have boats, motorcyles, fast cars, pool tables all while your still young enough to enjoy them. The music industry is for the lucky lottery winners, and the poor. There no room for a working guy with a family.

[shane1b4u]

16 years ago, I worked at a small mom and pops shop where we mostly made parts for Gibsons, ABR's, Stop Bars, and those little pearl Gibson headstock logo's and the like... and it only paid $7 an hour, but I really loved working there! The time came when I just couldn't stay there as we HAD to have more money with 1 kid and another on the way... I ended up learning a trade somewhere else, Tool and Die making to be exact.. sure I made ALOT more money, then awhile after the 3rd kid we moved out of the big city far away to one with only 3500 people in it, and my tool and die knowledge didn't mean crap there, so I was back to $8 dollar an hour jobs, that I hated...had a heart attack 2 years ago and am still off work, the kids will be moving out in the next few years, and I think I'm gonna go back to that mom and pops shop, where I was allowed to think on my feet and have an opinion, and work there for min wage if I have to... that was what I really loved, and the stuff I learned along the way would really help them alot... and I would love it!
Just find what YOU LOVE to do...Pay DOES matter, but HAPPINES is WAY more valuable!

[voodoochild]

I will say this in defense of a degree from any accredited school. It does help you get jobs, usually higher paying than someone without one. Speaking from experience my RV degree or certificate (whatever you want to call it) made it easier for me to get work. I was able to set up as a warranty center for several companies and my credentials gave customers more confidence in my work. Of course I had to back it all up will real quality work which I did. I think as Americans we take a degree for granted and expect a handout for it. If you use your degree as a tool and have a go get it attitude it will work for you. After all we have to pay for our degrees unlike some countries such as India who will educate you for free if you take it. However in India you can have a Masters degree or better and drive a taxi with no hopes of getting anything more from the degree. Is that what we want here? I don't think so. It seems to be heading in that direction too. Having to make sacrifices for an education is why an education gets you places here in the US.

[EffectsGuru]

I agree... it's a good school, there is room for improvments though... alot of the equipment was old and needed to be replaced, or was not working in 2006 and there wan't enough clamps for everyonethings like that... perhaps they have gotten some new equipment by now. But as overall education goes I would say pretty good, however it's hard to teach someone to build acoustic and electirc guitars in 6 months, but if your going to do it... bringing some of the best in the country to that school is the way to do it. SO that being said... I would bet only 1/3 of the people who leave there could build a guitar without help from start to finish in their own garage, and in reality, thats not bad... the other 2/3's can do it with just a little bit of assistance, SO thats pretty good in such short amount of time.

[EffectsGuru]

I agree... it's a good school, there is room for improvments though... alot of the equipment was old and needed to be replaced, or was not working in 2006 and there wan't enough clamps for everyone ... perhaps they have gotten some new equipment by now. But as overall education goes I would say pretty good, however it's hard to teach someone to build acoustic and electric guitars in 6 months, but if your going to do it... bringing some of the best in the country to that school is the way to do it. SO that being said... I would bet only 1/3 of the people who leave there could build a guitar without help from start to finish in their own garage, and in reality, thats not bad... the other 2/3's can do it with just a little bit of assistance, SO thats pretty good in such short amount of time.

[EffectsGuru]

Yeah you definitely have a good point, it absolutely IS a foot in the door.

[Sweetfinger]

[quote=spud1950;100350]

There is no money in this business! There is no sound financial reason to put together a small business building musical instruments in the US. Every single one of us, even the top name builders, work incredibly long hours and struggle month-to-month to pay the rent. /QUOTE]

I'm not in this business in any way,but it's not hard to figure that those who are and actually make a decent living solely from their guitar business must be a very tiny percentage.Here's some links that a sobering reality check.

Guitar Repairs
Guitar repairs - Google Search

The REALLY sobering reality check: I'm very happy that my shop pops up in the first 10 entries on the repair search, a happiness that does not quite offset the incredibly long hours, no pay, and "joy" of owning your own business. Paperwork. Yay. Anybody wanna buy a repair shop?

[guitaraddict]

Just my own take on it. Went to school to do what i loved and found out it was a great hobby but hated it as a living even though the pay was better than good. At 29 became a garbageman for 13 years. Loved that job just got a little to rough at 42. It stinks anyone cant make a 'living' wage. I feel for you. but 60-75 hours a week making money will look easy when the family comes along, because you work at least 40 for pay and more for your wife and kids and it is the biggest pain and greatest joy you will ever know and you will be so tired you think you cant go on. But you will. So my take on it? Glad you vented here rather than doing something crazy with your frustration. It will be a journey as life is that. Your dreams will change and some will be achieved. By reading your post You seem like a good guy having a hard time with the speed bumps on the path you have chosen. Hang in there, dude. Best of luck to you.

[madialex]

I think everyone that goes to college, trade school or whatever goes through this, I know I did. You go to School with the idea that this is going to take me to better places than the local burger joint, then you graduate and find out it aint all that, at least to start out anyway.

I went to school for Business management and Computer info systems and worked for 10 bucks an hour for the better part of 10 years, going from one management job to another, most of which promote from within so there you are, stuck...Start at the bottom, work your way up to that 10 an hour job in management. Unless you are at the corporate level and are spectacular at what you do it's just a fact of life, especially these days..

I worked in a factory for several years that paid a lot more than what I went to school for, tough job but the pay was great and to this day have not yet found a job in management making what I did at the factory.

Bottom line is, expect to start out at the bottom, if you are good at what you do you will make contacts in time that will propel you further ahead. The real thing to do is start your own thing after the starting at the bottom and making friends and contacts and you will realize the pay off for your schooling. Good luck in your endeavors....

[medsar]

Originally Posted by Wmacky

This should be your plan if you like living wages.

My "young" cousin became an RN a few years back even though he had no interest in it. He started making big money right away, and he's is now clearing $1600 a week. A WEEK! He hates his job, but all the toys makes it worth it. This should be your plan. You would have the extra cash to build your own high end shop out back, and with a giant beautiful home in front. you need to quickly decide how you want to live. You could have boats, motorcyles, fast cars, pool tables all while your still young enough to enjoy them. The music industry is for the lucky lottery winners, and the poor. There no room for a working guy with a family.

If my username doesn't hint at my profession...then let me tell you that using a day job to finance your love for guitars is the way to go. Think of it this way - all the builders on this site say they work 70-80hrs a week. Get your RN or some professional degree, work 30-40hrs a week and finance your own guitar luthier shop for those other 40hrs a week. I would think your "job security" in this current economic climate would be a huge peace of mind. It is for me.
---Hats off to the builders who may have to close doors simply because people are not buying guitars as much anymore---

[voodoochild]

Originally Posted by medsar

If my username doesn't hint at my profession...then let me tell you that using a day job to finance your love for guitars is the way to go. Think of it this way - all the builders on this site say they work 70-80hrs a week. Get your RN or some professional degree, work 30-40hrs a week and finance your own guitar luthier shop for those other 40hrs a week. I would think your "job security" in this current economic climate would be a huge peace of mind. It is for me.
---Hats off to the builders who may have to close doors simply because people are not buying guitars as much anymore---

Amen. I used to be a full time repair shop. 60-80 hrs every week. My wife said I was married to it and not her. Finally I got a job in the same industry but as a manager for another company. All of that 60-80 hrs a week paid off because now I only work 40-50 hrs a week. It gave me time to go back to school, spend time with the kids, and I can take repairs that I want to take for "extra cash". Now I can do what I love without the pressure. It also gave me the time to go a different direction. I can actually build guitars now unlike before when I had no choice but to repair. Repair paid the bills. Building did not. If I ever get full time making guitars I can go into it without as much risk because I have a day job to leave. If not, I can stay where I am.

[EffectsGuru]

I recently started doing setups and repairs out of my house ( i had a repair shop but had a hard time with the high rent here)... and it's going very well... so I'm pretty stoked that I'm not in Cali making less than a living wage.

When you go to a fast food joint... you know the one... they always get your order wrong.... could it be because they make so little? ($6.15 - 8.00 starting in my state) Is there a chance that people work harder when payed better? For me the answer is obvious... and it's not that they mean to do that, people work harder when they are happy, and if a few bucks, and a job that doesn't have you doing the same repetitive action over and over makes them happy? These subjects have been studied to the extent that some employers offer comfortable lounges with nice couches to allow their employees to take naps ( and they recommend that employees do!) for 15-30 min a day! The studies have shown that their work output was substantially higher. Just food for thought... I hope no one gets worked up over me speaking my mind. Cheers!

[Enzo]

Nothing wrong with speaking your mind, it just invites others to do the same.

I am over on the amplifier side of this equation, but the experiences are related. I own and operate an electronics repair shop, and I barely make the rent. I get guys calling up wanting to be interns or junior techs or whatever all the time. (Or the guy who wants to hang out and watch). Sorry I can;t afford it.

In this game a technician costs more than his wages. I'd have to make space and set up and wire a bench, put a computer on it with internet access. He'd need test equipment. I also have the bookeeping expense of having an employee, withholding income taxes, etc.

I agree with John's post much earlier, give me some experience over credentials any day. I have over the decades hired and trained many technicians - not here - and a guy with a fresh credential is often useless. Nothing personal. He can quote Thevenin's theorem, but can;t figure out how to get the Chassis out of a Fender Twin. When I hire a guy, I expect some basic knowledge, but practical experience speaks loudly. But mainly I am looking for a good attitude. I want someone who is interested, curious, WILLING TO LEARN, and yes someone who thinks about what he is doing.

I wish you well, and I hope you figure out how to parlay all this potential into something rewarding.

And geetings from just up I-96.