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Reply With QuoteAbsolutely. I have noted it when mixing songs. The advice I've read about ear fatigue is to do your best in one sitting, then come back at it a different day.
Quite often when I've spent the day at my bench, whether its making tweaks or major circuit surgery I have problems with my ears, or more likely, the way the mind works when it hears sounds over and over. I tend to keep a nice speaker cab about 8 or 10 feet away, pointed at my bench. A guitar on a stand next to the bench, and then as I work I can see what it sounds like, and make decisions on the next step based on real time tone. So far so good.
The problem is that the next day the amp doesn't always sound the way I thought it did on the bench. Same guitar, same cab, different room, different day. Do your ears get fatigued after long periods of exposure? I'm in my mid 50s and I know that my ears suffer from high frequency roll off, but this is different; I think that the mind gets numb and less perceptive during long period exposure to music (or anything, really). The next day I hear things differently! The reason for this post is that yesterday I took a parted out bassman head and built a Marshall JCM 800 preamp for the dirt channel and a slightly tweaked Bassman preamp for cleans. When I finished it sounded terrific. I'm getting ready to play it again and I hope it sounds as good as it did yesterday.
Discussion?
Thermionic vacuum devices rule.
Absolutely. I have noted it when mixing songs. The advice I've read about ear fatigue is to do your best in one sitting, then come back at it a different day.
-Mike
Humor is the best alternative to serial killing. - Chuck H
Yes absolutely I get ear fatigue. I notice it alot when mixing and at the end of a band rehearsal.
Of course the ringing in my ears from thirty years of aural assault by loud guitar amps doesn't help either.
Yep mee too. Try sticking the modded thing in a cupboard for a week and coming back to it. Often I find a few days distraction by other things brings a new insight. Also doing a recording of the modded sound helps to evaluate it over time (if you can remember which mod went with which recording).
Building a better world (one tube amp at a time)
One thing that has helped me cope with ear fatigue when I do modifications, I try to focus on one issue at a time. As in, "This amp needs a softer attack". I'll try some things until THAT issue sounds right and sometimes I'll listen to it again on three consecutive days before I make my decision to move on into another issue or continue to work on that one. I also do all my bench testing through a dummy load with a low level output. That way I can fix the macro stuff at low volumes and minimize high volume testing.
Chuck
Last edited by Chuck H; 06-15-2009 at 07:54 AM. Reason: typo
I'd find I'd get ear fatigue VERY quickly when exposed to loud volume and that they (my ears) would recover after a while after ceasing the high volume exposure. So I think it's a bad idea to tweak at high volume since you'll get a false impression of what the amp sounds like. I remember occasions where I'd stay up real late tweaking thinking, "This sounds great!" only to get up and try the amp first thing next morning and have the amp sound like poop (namely very harsh). Also another time where I was copying an album from CD to tape and using a BBE Sonic Maximizer (also staying up late) where I apparently had it and added waaaay too much high processing. The next day, (on my way to school) when I put the tape in my walkman and listened, it was seriously godawful (the highs). Ear fatigue is real and so is degradation that comes with age though I think it differs with sex (male or female and not "getting some or not getting some"--female hearing generally being better) and maybe individual difference(s in hearing). Plus hearing damage, and maybe experience as well (making for different perception).
To further confuse the issue, I am nearly convinced that both my guitar amp and my home stereo both sound better after 11pm.
Sometimes, it probably sounds better because I've had a nice dinner and a bottle of wine with my wife. Other times, though, I'm stone sober. I turn it on and, BAM, I'm struck with how much better it sounds.
Could things sound better at night because everyone in the neighborhood has stopped using their washer/drier/dishwasher/HVAC ? Or am I totally delusional?
Chip
I've read that from some sources. I have no idea if that is true, though it is my understanding that noise can indeed come in via the AC line even from say another building nearby. (On one web site I found interesting) one recording studio guy turned to a balanced power power supply which is supposed to help cancel common mode(I think it was) noise, eliminate current flow on the ground line in order to solve the perceived problem. IIRC he claimed it helped give more consistency to the sound. My take is that running on balanced power can help solve ground loop problems, plus give a slight improvement to the audio (not drastic night and day difference), which is maybe justified for professional situations.
Yet ANOTHER factor that I've noticed over the years of playing/repairing amps, is that amps will sound slightly different from day to day (especially true for older/vintage amps). I can remember many situations where a certain amp/guitar combination sounded amazing! Great sustain, "sweet" sounding high-end, solid (not "farty" sounding) low end, and all at a "pleasant" volume level. And then, the same "rig" on another occasion, even in the same room, just sounds "okay". I've always suspected factors such as humidity or possibly barometric pressure to be involved, and perhaps the effect temperatures can have on [some] capacitors ("'lytic" caps as well as "signal" caps).
Last time I was at Larry Roger's shop he had a beautiful Princeton Reverb that he had finished working on, and wanted me to listen to it.
At first, I thought the punchy highs were painful, until I moved to the side of the speaker, then it sounded much better.
My question is how loud are the amps?
If they are loud enough to cause concern over ear fatigue, you may want to consider building a padded speaker enclosure with a mic and a monitor (T-amp) so that you can listen to the amp at low volume levels.
Something simple could easily be built with plywood, or plexiglass if you want to it to be visible for customers.
If it looks good, I wouldn't be surprised if many wanted you to build them one.
Actually, I'd like to make one -- does anyone know where there are plans and material suggestions?
See the birth of a 2-watt tube guitar amp - the "Dyno Tweed"
http://www.naturdoctor.com/Chapters/Amps/DynoTweed.html
All your senses "fatigue." The blinding outdoor light when you first emerge from your hole becomes normal after a couple minutes. The cat box that needs changing and assaults your nose fades to the background after a bit, or the overly perfumed lady two tables over. Your ears accustom themselves to whatever you are hearing.
Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.
Everyone's ears and brain have a pretty big random component. That's why I don't see the point in obsessive tweaking of minor tonal changes, if your taste can vary by several dB from day to day.
Daz on this forum is the best example of this, he spends all night changing capacitors, and then the next evening he decides that he doesn't like what he's done and agonizes over some other changes, and on and on it goes with no end in sight.
I refuse to spend time worrying about any mod to audio equipment that makes less than 3dB difference to some measurable parameter of it. That cuts down the range of options enough that I can usually leave guitar amps unmolested and just enjoy playing them.
"The aim is to create a magical mystery glow of dumblenosity" - Alex R
I like to keep a reference amp close by, when I've been tweaking a new amp I'll compare it back to back with a known good amp, a reference point.
Wow, I had no idea you know everything about me from how long i spend at a time to how long i wait to decide something is good or not. What are you, a friggin' physic? Or maybe just phyCO? Seriously, don't make judgments on what i do here where you cannot see by my posts. For christ sakes man, your opinions aren't worth listening to if your judgments are made w/o nearly enough info to substantiate them. Do me a favor and stop responding to and about me, will ya? If you want to insult people here make it someone else because i won't stand for that cr@p.
Which, in fact is the only situation it's allowed to be used; commercial or industrial installations. So says the NEC (NFPA 70) Art. 647.3Originally Posted by dai h.
Daz, I apologize for my post above, I was having a nightmare week at work.
"The aim is to create a magical mystery glow of dumblenosity" - Alex R
I don't usually like jumping into other people's issues, but this one made me mad. So mad that I created a sockpuppet account to rant on this one. We haven't had a good flamewar here for a while, and it's high time.
That was big of you. But you were right, even if you did snap. I have long wondered why daz gets so much help and hand holding. Does he have dirt on you guys? Nude pics? SSN? What? This guy has a certain attitude of entitlement. He never offers much other than being a lab rat for people to use to try mods they'd never try themselves (or is that why everyone helps him and I just let the cat out of the bag? Hey daz, how bout a 22mfd cap on your presence circuit? Or maybe a new poly quasi-variable flux hemi-capacitor in your PSU? Or a shiny new dingleberry in your mandelbrot set?)
What's worse, he has a confirmation bias that prevents him from accepting advice he disagrees with. He even sometimes tries to correct people who try to help him, as though he knew more (then why are you asking for help, daz?). He pollutes the forum with some of the most inane stuff, thereby harming the signal to noise ratio around here, and thus prevents experts from helping others who are trying to learn and not just have answers spoon fed to them.
I have learned a lot here. I appreciate everyone's help. But I also try to contribute back when I can, even if it's fielding easy questions so guys like Steve and Enzo and Bruce and tubeswell can help n00bs with real problems. I have never seen daz contribute anything, unless you count the discussions his inane ideas generate, which admittedly does add a modicum of value.
His grammar and netiquette suck. To get indignant at you, Steve, who in particular tirelessly answers his ramblings, is shameful. Daz is the squeaky wheel, and I say it's time to stop greasing him. Stop throwing your pearls before swine. Daz is an unfortunate side affect of the internet forum, the person who comes to expect help to be there at his beckon and call and offers little in return. He reminds me of a six year old who, when you teach him something, rebuffs you with "oh yeah, I already knew that." Daz is that mangy dog you feed once because you feel sorry for him and then he won't leave your doorstep.
Daz sez: "If you want to insult people here make it someone else because i won't stand for that cr@p. "
Or what, daz? You're gonna get your drawers in a bunch, throw a snit, type up a really snarky post (replete with misspellings), and pout at your computer screen. That's what.
Daz, it is you who owes Steve an apology. And rather than jumping off the deep end, daz, consider that sometimes seeing how others perceive you hurts. Deal with it and move on. You shouldn't feel unwelcome here, but you need to chill with the attitude and be a bit more humble and a bit less abrasive. Perhaps not taking yourself so seriously would help too. And fricking leave the amp alone. Seriously. I am surprised your board isn't melted already. At this point, if you don't like your tone, it's not the amp. Practice more.
End of rant.
You catch more flies with sugar...
I see no reason to criticize the various individuals here. SOme guys are over-confident, others are under-confident, some have amazing knowledge, others know squat. Some are usually right, others often wrong. Some are clear thinkers, others may get the right answer for the wrong reasons. Some rarely ask for help, others can;t move without it. And everything in between.
Every answer to every question daz or anyone else here asks is read by a vast army of people who never post. People too timid to post. I never forget I am writing for them as much as for the original poster in a thread. And while not all are challenging to answer, many times putting together a response hones my own understanding of the topic. ANd even a technical refrain repeated often helps to crispen my presentation. I benefit for when I train technicians in the future or for when I work on chapters in my book. it also helps me understand just what sorts of things novice technicians need to know and what they wonder about.
SO speaking for myself, I don't mind the questions.
And further speaking for myself, if I had a beef with someone, I would certainly not hide behind an alias to express it.
Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.
Hi Wimbo Wombo - In order to keep myself honest I must say you do me an honour I truly don't deserve by mentioning my name alongside Enzo, Bruce and Steve. And there are others also far more deserving of esteem here than me; MWJB, loudthud, Bob Martinelli, mooreamps, Steve Ahola, tboy, dai h., mandopicker, merlinb, Albert Kreuzer, Amp Kat, tubenit, pdf64, JoeM any many more whose names I can't recall just now. I'm just one of those overconfident guys that Enzo alludes to, who often puts the mouth into gear before the brain is totally engaged (but it is a great learning tool). For my part I like tuning into Daz's threads now and again to see if other people have something informative to mention to help him, which I can learn from on the side. Go Daz. Anyhow I can also appreciate the humour in Steve's post. I didn't interpret it to be meant to be (totally) cruel
Last edited by tubeswell; 07-01-2009 at 12:18 PM.
Building a better world (one tube amp at a time)
Wimbo, what are you afraid of, lobbing cannon shots from the safety of a blind? Unless you took the step of using a different PC to rant from, the administrators know your IP and therefore who you are. Whatever...
I'm one of the guys that reads a lot and posts when I think it might interest others and spark discussion. And once in a while I'll add a solution to a problem that was posted...but usually someone else who is equally or more qualified to address the issue has already responded, so I won't post unless I can add something of interest or be helpful, or humorous. To teach is to learn twice, as Enzo alluded to above. This forum is to further intellectual knowledge, share tips, and help others. Dumping on someone doesn't fuel creativity, it damps it. For my part, I've been tearing into tube equipped electronics since the early 1960s, and in my 40s, I finally graduated from a state university, BSEE. I know what I'm talking about, but I'm not afraid to ask a question either. And if the members of the forum take me under their wing and you don't like it, who has the problem? Not me! The problem is staring at you in the mirror.
I found out the hard way that when I have a problem with someone, the first thing I need to look at is myself.
Thermionic vacuum devices rule.
I think this is a good positive side effect which may be being overlooked in the perceived "fish giving exercises". There could be (novice, noobs, etc.) lurkers on the side who benefit when things are spelled out and made more clear. I'm sure I've seen a thing or two from the experienced guys replying which I'll probably find useful down the road, I'm sure.
hey! I know nothing! lol...
Steve, sorry. I didn't know you were having a bad day, but to be honest i've always felt a certain negative factor in some of your posts towards me and that one just got to me. maybe i'm reading too much into it, but i appriciate your last post.
As to this wombo whatever guy, you completely misread my posts obviously because theres only one person here who truly knows my intentions behind every word i say, and thats me. If you could see what i'm thinking you'd realize how wrong you are on most every account in your post. You're so off base it's rediculous, and the most idiotic part is....
Thats absolute BS. I have said a MILLION times here that I DON'T KNOW SHEET about this stuff and appriciate the help and brilliance in the help you get here. But you didn't read that did you? Or more likely you did but in your horribly misplaced anger it just went in one ear and out the other, which by the way is obviously a route devoid of obstacles ! I have NEVER assumed i know more than anyone here !!! If it sounded like that it's only with a reason such as maybe i tried it before and it didn't work. I can know far far less than someone here, but if I try something that someone here with a ton more knowledge than me said would work and it didn't work to my ear, then i didn't assume i know more....i simply heard it and he is only looking at a schematic which is impossible for the best electronic mind to look at and know exactly how well it will work. Nor do they know whether what works to THIER ear will work for MINE!!! It's a matter of him not being there to hear it and i was. But you don't wanna hear that do you? You'd rather read into everything i say the most negitive thing you can which is obvious from your ignorant post void of any truth. You have zero idea of what i meant behind any of the words i said as proven by your BS post. Sorry, but with the nth degree nastiness of your post i feel justified is say that you sir are an idiot at best.He even sometimes tries to correct people who try to help him, as though he knew more (then why are you asking for help, daz?)
Haha, this just goes to show what happens what you feed a troll!
Shiny package of rusted wreckage
Fender Schematics Galore at http://ampedia.redbeartrading.com
I've been feeling like such a 'Daz' lately... (see "Theory and Design")
But seriously, I can't believe how f'ing generous everyone is on this board. Try talking-tech with your local amp 'guru' and see how far you get. I commonly get the death stare at first mention of a coupling capacitor. I assume it's because most of the jaded techs I've ever encountered have basically tried robbed me because of my naivety (many haven't as well). One guy ripped me off so many times when I was a kid, I actually had a dream about building an explosive into an amp so when he switched on my 'broken amp' his whole shop exploded...
I know, very extreme, but that's what prompted me to discover the inside of my amplifier, and if it wasn't for all the nice people who respond to my posts, I may have actually built my "TNT Custom 666"
It would be very easy for me to piss off EVERYONE right now with all I'm thinking as I read this thread... But I'll refrain... Somewhat.
I like Daz's threads. Sometimes a greenhorn is better able to think outside the box. There are fewer barriers because although they know only a little about what to do, they also don't know the enormous amount of reasons NOT to do something. And it's important at this point to admit that in the face of reason, sometimes what seems unreasonable works out. How many times have any experienced guitar players among us heard or seen some young player pull some modal $h!t or otherwise that seemed contrary but sounded great. They didn't know they shouldn't do it. They were just doing what worked. Daz does the same thing with his electronics. And yes, sometimes he has a positive experience that makes him think it's OK to contradict advice that is given (I know it to be true because you've done it to me Daz). But that's only because he doesn't always recognize the full context of the circumstances. Sometimes that's why things work. The specific circumstances that work in one instance, when everything is just right, can sometimes create a positive result even though some "rules" are being broken. I can look at Daz's most recent schem and see several things I would never do. But... I'll bet a dollar to a donut that his amp sound great. Nuff said.
Daz, What you have probably realized already by now is that if Steve recognized a folly in your actions it's only because he's probably done similar things himself. It's part of the learning process and a right of passage. That he mentioned it a derogatory way shows bad form. But not especialy bad. I've taken my share of lumps here for being a goober and I've always come out on the other end better for it. Pay special attention to the advice you diagree with because you will learn why your specific circumstances cotradict the convention. That can be big medecin. We all suffer from some degree of COPD otherwise we wouldn't be building the best sounding amps on the planet. Welcome to the club. And try to take your lumps and any ribbing with grace and a grain of salt.
Wimbo Wombo, I don't know who you are. I'll guess you have another screen name here other than this one. But I don't really care. You speak eloquently enough and your logic is well considered but lacks the human element needed for effective social interaction. You seem like an angry person and I think you either need to find a life partner, or the one you have should treat you better.
JM2C
Chuck
lol, not an angry person here. We all have angry moments. Well, in my case, more like irritated, which I was, and I came down too hard on daz. People of daz's personality type tend to get under my skin, and after this rant I'll go back to grinning and bearing. I have replied to saz a lot with advice, and will continue to try to help him. In general I don't think I was wrong, but I was too harsh on the poor guy. Daz surprised me by apologizing to Steve. Anyhow, I, wimbowambo, am done here. I don't want to detract from the truly valuable content here with this kind of silliness.
WHEW! Is that it? I HOPE YOU ALL CAN RELAX NOW!
Your departure is fine with me, as all i am here for is to discuss amplifier design. I understand exactly what you don't like about me. Some people just don't have the patience to deal with people who post obsessively like myself and tend to read a lot of BS into the posts because they dislike them so much they just WANT to see the bad thats not there. I fully understand that because there are people i have run into at other forums i felt similarly about. The difference between you and I is that unlike you i keep my mouth shut when i run into someone who gets on my nerves at any forum unless they have a go at me first. Then the flood gates fly open because the first ruke in my book is i never throw the first punch, but if you do i'm no longer gonna be a real nice guy. But when i run into someone that bothers me in the same way i bother you, i have enough sense to keep my mouth shut because untill they say something nasty to me, it's none of my business whether or not i like thier ideas.I, wimbowambo, am done here.
I appreciate the people here because for the most part they either accommodate me or leave me alone if they don't like me. And thier knowledge is above and beyond most tech forums. I would wager if you looked thru every one of my posts you will see more thank yous than from most others because i truly DO appriciate the help i get here. But you came at me like a rabbid dog telling me just the opposite because you just have a certain picture of me that wrong as it is you want to believe in to justify your hate for me. Whatever....i'm done with this thread. Don't let the door hit ya....
Oh, and chuck....i know you don't agree with that schematic. But since you gave me that lecture about keeping the preamp stages more linear, i've been working on trying to make those changes you gave me work. What i finally found that ended up making me go back to very traditional marshall values is that the preamp voltages were keeping me from using those. early on i dropped them very low. At one point i had one of the first stages at 100v on the plate ! I saw the badcat has this too so i felt justified in using it. But after playing with the values you gave me i realize that even tho there was something great there i was having a problem getting the tone to work in a mix. Then it hit me to try jacking the preamp voltages back up to more traditional marshall voltage and wow ! Once i did that i was able to again use values you gave me and it worked great. So much so that i went even further and put them back to similar values i had when i started this venture and now they work great like that. In fact there are things about the tone that are now much better than before, specifically the ability to have both clean and distortion tones that are great. Before it was always a trade-off....if one was great they other would be less so. Now they are both better than they ever were. More and more I am realizing how infinite the possibilities are and seeing why even great techs spend endless hours trying to design the ultimate amp. It's because you can change one simple thing and the entire amp can then need to be redesigned ! It's like a huge balancing act that never ends. And at this point i could easily stop because i love this amp as is right now. But i won't because this is actually fun as he|| !!! And i have you to thank for a lot of this. everyone here really, but you really nailed it when you gave me those ides a couple months ago and explained to be about bias vs gain. Thanks again for that !
Getting back to the OP subject... :-)
I built a Kendrick kit-amp a couiple years ago (Lion VII) that I've been fooling with ever since. Lately I've been trying to find the "perfect" speaker for it, based on their descriptions fitting what I thought I wanted or my past experiences with them. These included in-stock Celestion Lead 80s, Jensen P12N, Mojo BV-30V, Webers, Scumbacks, and various incarnations of new Eminence models.
One day I'd think I found "the one", the next day it sounded muffled, or too bright, or too midrangey, or too low in sensitivity; you name it.
In retrospect, the right way to have done the appraisal was probably record each one and listen to playback later, but I digress.
I ended up finally putting something in it that sounds pretty good every day (an Eminence Red, White, and Blues in this case) and not to worry about it any more.
I'm still tempted to do some tweaking from time to time, but the speaker will stay as is.....I hope!
Last edited by TD_Madden; 07-02-2009 at 07:25 PM. Reason: grammar repair
same here. But what really amazes me beyond words is that it can be such a huge difference. i could never understand no matter how burned my ears may be (because for one thing this can happen even w/o ear fatigue) how it could sound incredible one day and the next mediocre at best. I've actually had that happen and it's shocking and disappointing. But it never seems to go the other way around where it sounds horrible one day and the next incredible, or even decent for that matter. If it sounds mediocre one day it never even sounds better to any notable degree the next. this is why whenever i try say a new bridge or any tone changing part in a guitar i almost always revert back to the stock part a few weeks or months later, because thats when i REALLY notice the difference. The first impression often turns out to be the opposite of what i first thought. With amp tweaks tho i can usually be sure that within a day or 3 i know the truth. Then theres another consideration that i started a post about recently, and thats how it sounds by itself compared to how it sounds in a mix. I've had it sounding fantastic by itself only to fin in a mix it stuck out like a sore thumb and sounded weird.One day I'd think I found "the one", the next day it sounded muffled, or too bright, or too midrangey, or too low in sensitivity; you name it
Something I was reading recently, and I knew it was important but I didn't know how much, was your ear's position in the room. If you move around at all, your head's position could make more of a difference than the mod did.
The part of interest is on page two, it's the last section of the article.
The Emperor’s New Sampling Rate -- Are CDs Actually Good Enough?
-Mike
Humor is the best alternative to serial killing. - Chuck H
Funny you should mention that. I have built all stock amps, no original designs (yet). Almost every mod I have ever made to them, while a beneficial learning experience, almost always ends up getting reverted. You were criticized for tweaking, but you actually end up learning a LOT from tweaking even if you don't like the result. One of the main things I have learning from tweaking is that often, the original designer knew best, and I guess that holds true on guitars too. Of course, all bets are off when you veer off the path of production model amps
Shiny package of rusted wreckage
Fender Schematics Galore at http://ampedia.redbeartrading.com
Cm9,
Is that link back to the capture of the old FFG content?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Funny you should mention that. I have built all stock amps, no original designs (yet). Almost every mod I have ever made to them, while a beneficial learning experience, almost always ends up getting reverted. You were criticized for tweaking, but you actually end up learning a LOT from tweaking even if you don't like the result. One of the main things I have learning from tweaking is that often, the original designer knew best, and I guess that holds true on guitars too. Of course, all bets are off when you veer off the path of production model amps
Yeah, that's it. Got all the old schems there.
Shiny package of rusted wreckage
Fender Schematics Galore at http://ampedia.redbeartrading.com
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