Potting Tank

[automan]

It may be overkill for me at this time, but I just ordered a potting tank.

Amazon.com: Gigi Digital Steel Bowl Paraffin Bath [ #0953 ]: Health & Personal Care

Amazon.com: Gigi Digital Steel Bowl Paraffin Bath [ #0953 ]: Health & Personal Care

[belwar]

Actually that might work pretty well! It took me a while to settle on what to use. I eventually settled on a roaster from sears..

Nesco 6 Quart Roaster Oven - White - Porcelain Cookwell

I liked it because it had a tempurate gauge, and a nice lip on the top that allowed me to build a polycarbonate lid for doing vacuum potting. I was a little worried the first time I turned it on but the main bowl held and wax penetrated right to the core. I bought the parafix at Vons (Safeway) and woodcraft had nice blocks of beeswax that smell great.

b.

[David Schwab]

I've been contemplating wax potting, and was wondering what to use. I didn't realize they made wax warming pots!

Here's another cheaper one, $47.09:

Amazon.com: Homedics PAR-150 ParaSpa Pro Adjustable Temperature Paraffin Bath with Wax and Liners Included, White: Health & Personal Care

Amazon.com: Homedics PAR-150 ParaSpa Pro Adjustable Temperature Paraffin Bath with Wax and Liners Included, White: Health & Personal Care

[tedmich]

classic potting techniques! Remember the paraffin can sound overly refined while the beeswax can have a high frequency emphasis that goes well with a 5150 amp...with added floral notes!

Seriously, wax works well and is somewhat reversible.

Low viscous CA works well for me to quiet microphonic coils, but there is no going back unless your insulation is "acetone proof" Heat-meltable insulation builds add bulk and are expensive but done well are ultimately dampening.

It is summer though; the wax pot could double up on a "Brazilian" side project!

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by tedmich

classic potting techniques! Remember the paraffin can sound overly refined while the beeswax can have a high frequency emphasis that goes well with a 5150 amp...with added floral notes!

Seriously, wax works well and is somewhat reversible.

Low viscous CA works well for me to quiet microphonic coils, but there is no going back unless your insulation is "acetone proof" Heat-meltable insulation builds add bulk and are expensive but done well are ultimately dampening.

It is summer though; the wax pot could double up on a "Brazilian" side project!

Rick Turner used to use CA. I'm currently using varnish, but I'm contemplating wax to speed up the production time. I'd thought of tying CA, and I'll have to give it a try before I switch methods. I use a lot of it anyway in constructing my bobbins and stuff.

[David Schwab]

OK, I tried some CA... nice solid coil in no time.

[LtKojak]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

OK, I tried some CA... nice solid coil in no time.

Sorry, but I'm just need to ask: what is CA?

[Peter Naglitsch]

CA = Cyano Acrylat (spelling?) = Super Glue

I used CA for my first couple of pickups. Let just say that a rewind is nothing to consider...

I have a GiGi Wax melter but a smaller one, even smaller than the one David linked to (only suitable for one pickup at a time). Works like a charm. Melt the wax in under ten minutes and not nearly as messy as the "bucket in a pot of boiling water" I started with or not nearly as deangerous as my home built wax melter.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Peter Naglitsch

CA = Cyano Acrylat (spelling?) = Super Glue

cyanoacrylate

Originally Posted by Peter Naglitsch

I used CA for my first couple of pickups. Let just say that a rewind is nothing to consider...

I encapsulate the pickups in epoxy anyway, so rewinds are out of the question, even if I pot in wax.

I have a GiGi Wax melter but a smaller one, even smaller than the one David linked to (only suitable for one pickup at a time). Works like a charm. Melt the wax in under ten minutes and not nearly as messy as the "bucket in a pot of boiling water" I started with or not nearly as deangerous as my home built wax melter.

I might have started using wax from the start if I had seen these wax melters. I didn't want to deal with the mess.

[Bruce Johnson]

Like David, I fully encapsulate my pickups in epoxy to permanently seal them. For potting, I use a special epoxy which has a viscosity about like CA glue. It's Smith's MultiWoodPrime, which is sold as a pre-treatment for wood. I line up a row of bobbins and pour and daub it on to the coils. It soaks all the way to the core and cures in about an hour.

[automan]

Doesn't the CA get hot enough when it kicks off to mess up some of the insulation?

[belwar]

On its own it shouldnt unless you use an accelerator like Zip Kicker. On it's own is remains fairly cool. I think the key is you dont want to smother it.

I've had issues with crazy glue soaked rags spontaneously combusting in our garbage cans and dumpsters.. We used to soak Brazilian guitars in CA before body sanding. but that is a slightly different circumstance.

My only advise would be to spread out any paper towel you use (for clean up) on the ground and let the glue fully harden before thowing it away. The Fire department has gotten pretty familiar with our dumpster over the years.

[automan]

Seems like there would be an easy way to test. Measure the capacitance of a pickup before, then again after using CA

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by automan

Doesn't the CA get hot enough when it kicks off to mess up some of the insulation?

It doesn't seem to get hot, but the epoxy sure does. And wax is hot too.

I use MG Chemicals potting epoxy. It has the viscosity of maple syrup.

I don't think it's hot enough to melt the insulation though.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Bruce Johnson

Like David, I fully encapsulate my pickups in epoxy to permanently seal them. For potting, I use a special epoxy which has a viscosity about like CA glue. It's Smith's MultiWoodPrime, which is sold as a pre-treatment for wood. I line up a row of bobbins and pour and daub it on to the coils. It soaks all the way to the core and cures in about an hour.

I'll have to check that epoxy out.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by belwar

I've had issues with crazy glue soaked rags spontaneously combusting in our garbage cans and dumpsters..

I've read that CA reacts with cotton, and is supposed to start smoking if you put them together.

I tried it with a Q-Tip once and nothing happened.

[defaced]

In my copious free time, I work as a candle maker's assistant (translation, my girlfriend's into candle making). The candle people use Fry Daddy deep fryers for melting wax, but they add a spout to theirs which I don't think would be needed for pickup potting. They run 25 bucks at WallyWorld and I'm sure every other big box store out there: Walmart.com: PRESTO FRY DADDY: Appliances

For her setup, we opted for something with more capacity, a 22 qt camping pan, which we set on a 1/2" thick piece of aluminum then onto the stove burner. Her wax is a soy blend, melts at about 170F if I remember right, and we don't have any problem with burring the wax. A candle thermometer comes in handy, I would gather that a candy thermometer would also work and be easier to get your hands on. They look the same to me (glass envelope style thermometer), so I assume they're similar enough this application.

[Bruce Johnson]

Here's a batch of my coils being potted with the MultiWoodPrime. I just pour it and daub it on there until it seems to be saturated. When it cures, it's not brittle-hard like CA glue. It's slightly soft. But, it's very low viscosity and completely saturates the coil.

[tedmich]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

It doesn't seem to get hot, but the epoxy sure does. And wax is hot too.

I use MG Chemicals potting epoxy. It has the viscosity of maple syrup.

I don't think it's hot enough to melt the insulation though.

The fast set epoxies (30s-10min) produce all their exothermic heat quite quickly while the 50min-4h slow set release heat slow enough to not get too hot. When I potted my toroid with 1/2lb of 5min epoxy the darn thing got so hot I could barely pick it up to put it into a bucket of cold water. I use PTFE insulation so nothing melts anyway.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by tedmich

The fast set epoxies (30s-10min) produce all their exothermic heat quite quickly while the 50min-4h slow set release heat slow enough to not get too hot. When I potted my toroid with 1/2lb of 5min epoxy the darn thing got so hot I could barely pick it up to put it into a bucket of cold water. I use PTFE insulation so nothing melts anyway.

It's a funny thing, I started using a new batch of epoxy in larger containers. The last set of pickups I did, which where the first with this batch, the epoxy got really warm and set up pretty fast. I was surprised because I use a squeeze bottle and could feel hot warm it was in my hand.

It usually takes 24 hours for full cure. I did another couple of sets tonight, and it's working as usual, not getting warm, and taking its time.

[Bruce Johnson]

Yeah, epoxies can be touchy in the way they build up heat. If you have a slightly "hot" mix (a little too much catalyst vs resin than spec), it will tend to heat up faster. But the biggest factor is the volume of epoxy in one place. In a blob of mixed epoxy, the center starts heating up, and causes a chain reaction going outwards. The larger the blob, the faster it will turn into a smoking ball.

One way to reduce the problem is to mix it in a flat pan, instead of a cup. Keep it spread out, and don't let it get into a blob. If you feel it starting to get warm, spread it out more.

When casting epoxy, such as encapsulating pickups, be careful not to create spots in the molds where you're filling large volumes with epoxy. That could cause the epoxy to overheat and cook off. If you have a void to fill, cut a little block of wood to drop down in there to take up most of the space.

I use West Systems epoxy to encapsulate my pickups, the 105 resin and the 206 slow hardener. This mix takes about 12 hours to cure. I've had too many problems with heating using the 205 fast hardener for cast parts.

The Smith's MultiWoodPrime that I use for potting the coils doesn't seem to heat up at all in the small-cup quantities that I use. I haven't felt any heat buildup in the coils.

[David Schwab]

Good stuff Bruce, thanks!

Yes, I had mixed up a large amount, since I had seven pickups to pot. I thought about that too.

Last night I mixed half the amount, and it didn't get warm at all.

I do fill up large voids in the covers. I mainly did it as to not waste epoxy, but now I'm glad I do it.

[automan]

So the people that i ordered my warmer from called and said they didnt have that model in but they have one from another company they can ship right away. I smelled a bait and switch from a quality product to a knock off, so I canceled the order and ordered from somewhere else. I'll repost when I get the right one in as to how it works.

[Zhangliqun]

I just use the glue pot from Stewmac. Self-regulates on the temperature (145F) and works perfectly fine for me.

[chevalij]

I use the following. Max temp is 180, so no real danger.

Double Head Wax Heater Warmer Facial Body Beauty SPA on eBay.ca (item 230355289168 end time 15-Jul-09 11:00:00 EDT)

[gregyancey]

I've had great luck with this rice cooker:

Rival 6-cup Rice Cooker - Red (RC61) : Target

I put it in the "cook" position to get the wax melted, then to "warm" afterwords. I occasionally kick it back up to "cook" if the wax gets a little cool.

[Possum]

I use what Leo Fender used at G&L, an old fryer with temp control. Using a thermometer I find the right temp and leave it set at that. The good thing is it heats up quick and if you're in a panic to pot something turn it up high and it will melt really fast. You can find these often at Salvation Army/Goodwill stores. I like the temperature control.

[tedmich]

Originally Posted by Bruce Johnson

Yeah, epoxies can be touchy in the way they build up heat. If you have a slightly "hot" mix (a little too much catalyst vs resin than spec), it will tend to heat up faster. But the biggest factor is the volume of epoxy in one place. In a blob of mixed epoxy, the center starts heating up, and causes a chain reaction going outwards. The larger the blob, the faster it will turn into a smoking ball.

The epoxy is all producing heat at the same rate, its just that the smaller the surface area to mass ratio, the slower the internal mass can pass its heat outward to the environment. Thus the center of the blob gets hotter cause the edges can lose their heat faster. Spreading it out allows more heat loss from the greater surface area.

Slow cure releases exactly the same amount of heat; it just does it slowly and it can radiate out so the temperature stays lower. Less chance of bubbles too with lower temp and more time for gravity to help the gas escape.

splitting hairs here but hey I am a chemist!

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by tedmich

The epoxy is all producing heat at the same rate, its just that the smaller the surface area to mass ratio, the slower the internal mass can pass its heat outward to the environment. Thus the center of the blob gets hotter cause the edges can lose their heat faster. Spreading it out allows more heat loss from the greater surface area.

Slow cure releases exactly the same amount of heat; it just does it slowly and it can radiate out so the temperature stays lower. Less chance of bubbles too with lower temp and more time for gravity to help the gas escape.

splitting hairs here but hey I am a chemist!

Well, I do know that if I mix up about 3 Oz in a squeeze bottle it doesn't get warm at all. If I mix up 6 Oz in the exact same squeeze bottle, it gets really hot. It also starts to set faster. This is using the same slow cure potting epoxy.

It got REALLY hot last night, and the plastic bottle started getting soft. It was so hot you could not hold the bottle in your hand.

Didn't get hot in the pickups though.

This was left over from potting three pickups... I had mixed up to much. I had to sit it in a cup of cold water.

[tedmich]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

Well, I do know that if I mix up about 3 Oz in a squeeze bottle it doesn't get warm at all. If I mix up 6 Oz in the exact same squeeze bottle, it gets really hot. It also starts to set faster. This is using the same slow cure potting epoxy.

It got REALLY hot last night, and the plastic bottle started getting soft. It was so hot you could not hold the bottle in your hand.

Didn't get hot in the pickups though.

This was left over from potting three pickups... I had mixed up to much. I had to sit it in a cup of cold water.

surface area of a cylinder goes up more slowly than mass:
2x mass can be only ~40% higher SA, so it can't shed heat as fast and the retained heat causes an increase in the chemical reaction of the epoxy hardening: approx a 2x faster rate for every 10C rise in temp.

Epoxy credo: Keep mass small, hardening rate slow and avoid shapes approaching a sphere (min SA:vol ratio)

[automan]

OK, all. I told you I would report back with how it works. It works awesome! I ended up going with a different one than in the first post. The one I am using is a GiGi that holds 8lbs of wax. I am using about 6lbs right now 80% paraffin 20% purified bees wax. I can fit about 20 single coils in at a time in one layer. I will definitely be getting another one soon. Use one with clean wax for new pickups and another to reheat pickups that are in for repair so as not to contaminate my known wax with whatever might be in an older one..

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by tedmich

Epoxy credo: Keep mass small, hardening rate slow and avoid shapes approaching a sphere (min SA:vol ratio)

[copperheadroads]

i was eyeing a 2 quart crock pot at walmart for 11 bucks for potting pickups it has high ,low and a warm setting anybody ever try this

[Sweetfinger]

I use a crock pot double boiler setup. It isn't very fast, but I only need to dip pickups every few weeks. I got mine at a thrift store for 3 bucks.

The nice thing about wax vs. CA or epoxy is that the wax is reversible- you can easily disassemble a solidified pickup and unwind a wax coil. The other methods...not so much.

CA curing on a coil won't get hot unless you accelerate it. CA does aggressively cure with cellulose...especially paper towels! Many times I've blobbed a bunch of thin CA on my hand and not been zippy quick when wiping it off, so the towel bonds to my skin, then it gets smokin'(really) hot causing me to howl like a monkey at feeding time! Also-
Wood is cellulose.

"Tell me a story Unca Jim" .....

I had an old Giannini guitar in the shop for repair a couple years back. The back and sides of the guitar were hogged from a single rosewood log and the wood had dried and split open in a radiating pattern on the butt-end of the guitar. Just like....an old log. The splits were large enough to see through
I came up with an ingenious solution. I sprayed accelerator on the exterior of the guitar and then taped over the split area with packing tape. Then poured a good amount of thin CA into the guitar through the soundhole and rolled it around the split area on the inside. I made smoke! A surprising amount. That horrible choking super glue smoke which is not so much bad for you as it is irritating. I didn't see flames, so I knew I was ok.
The upside- it worked just like I hoped. The CA wicked into all the small splits
and solidified all the wood in the area into a solid piece. It also filled the larger gaps. When I pulled the packing tape from the exterior, the glue was flush with the finish surface and you'd never know from looking what had happened. Well there's my CA "hot" glue story. Sorry for digressing.

[David Schwab]

CA and cotton is supposed to react violently... I tried it once on a Q-Tip and nothing happened though.

For some safe fun, take two pennies and put some CA on one of them, and they spray some accelerator, and then clamp them together very hard in a vice. You see a puff of smoke and then a lot of hard white foam.

At least when my friend used to do it.

I recently "potted" a few coils with CA. It worked fine, until one developed a short, and of course I couldn't cleanly strip the wire off... But it wasn't so bad either.