Smelly Paul

[13eastie]

First, my apologies if this is a little off-topic, but I've found this forum so useful before that I'm hopeful someone can help here. (Mods - please delete this if anyone is unhappy).

So:

A 70's LP Custom recently came into my possession.

After (un)modifying the electronics to something less worthy of Frankenstein, it has become a favourite.

But nothing can disguise the fact that this guitar STINKS.

I have cleaned and polished every facet, but it reeks of the stale smoke to which I presume it has been subject for many years. Either that or the thing has floating around in a sewer for a while...

What can be done about this?

[Mandopicker]

Perhaps giving it a new case for a while might help. I am quite sure that the case is holding the smell far more tighly than the guitar.

Good luck.

[13eastie]

Originally Posted by Mandopicker

Perhaps giving it a new case for a while might help. I am quite sure that the case is holding the smell far more tighly than the guitar.

Good luck.

The case is long-gone, I'm afraid.

I keep my guitars on display in racks. The stinky Paul usually sits between a Strat I've had for fifteen years (and which STILL gives off that lovely Fender aroma) and a 1934 Martin (which smells of pure... history!).

A case might melp to protect the public from the Gibson's malodorous behaviour.

I need a definitive and instant solution!

[Chuck H]

The trouble with your smelly guitar is that what you are smelling is only the most volitile componants of what is in the finish and wood. So the only way to REMOVE the odor is to disolve the actual stuff causing it. This is impossible without destroying the guitar because any solvent capable of this would do permanent damage to the finish and possibly the wood and glue joints. So the only other option would be to mask the smell. I would try getting a case for the guitar and keep a srong dry deodorant of some kind in the component compartment. I'd try the stuff used for cars like Ozium, those cardboard pine trees and such. A few drops of ozium or whatever car deoderizer scent you prefer (I wonder if they have a new wood smell?) in the component pocket would probably do. Alternate the deodorant in the component pocket periodically with a cloth bag filled with baking soda and sometimes with activated charcoal. periodically spray the case liner with Fabreeze or something too, but don't put the guitar back in while the liner is wet. Keep the guitar in the case full time. It may take awhile for it to take effect.

Considering it's a Les Paul, and should have a case anyway, the cost of the case should be an acceptible expense. The other stuff isn't that expensive and could serve double duty around your house and car too.

FWIW I haven't done this before but it seems like it should work.

Chuck

[stingray_65]

I fear there is no hope for this axe.
the only viable solution I can see is to send it to me parcel post where I will continue to corrupt it with heavy ciggarette smoke.

JK

I wish you luck on your restoration

Ray

[Plucky]

Hi, 13eastie. I suggest you use naptha to clean every surface on the guitar. Wear gloves, work in a well-ventilated area, and use a respirator, if available. Using an old(but clean) cotton t-shirt, use your finger tip(s) to clean in small circular motions. You will likely see yellow or brown goo coming off onto the cotton - do not worry - this is wax, tobacco tar, sweat, etc..

It will probably take a while, but if the odors in question are in fact on the surface, they are trapped in some form of film(probably wax), and removing this film should clear it up. You should pay some attention to inside the cavities as well. Have fun...

-Ron

[Chuck H]

Whoa... Hold on there...

First... It should be said that there are further refinements for naptha that are much hotter than VM&P naptha. Any other naptha is sure to damage the finish. Sometimes these are called "high flash" naptha, "hot" naptha or "fast" naptha. Be sure you use VM&P naptha only. Further, many lacquer finished guitars have very fine fissures in the finish. Solvent can get under the finish through these and lift the lacquer. And naptha has been known to cause dulling on some lacquer finishes so test in an incospicuous area first. I think the possibilty that the finish on your guitar has been softened by tar and nicotine make it a higher risk for cleaning with solvent.

Second... NEVER under any circumstances allow solvent of any kind to touch the bare wood surfaces in your guitar. Some of the wood poors can act like a one way valve, the same way Gortex fabric does. The solvent goes in, but it can't fully get out. The solvent can get under the finish while trying to find another way out of the wood and cause damage.

I need to say that I don't know what Gibson used to finish Les Paul guitars in the 70's. It may not be lacquer at all. Most non lacquer finishes used on guitars should stand up to naptha with no risk of damage. But overall I think cleaning any guitar with finishing solvents is a bad idea. And certainly solvents should not be allowed to soak into any bare wood.

Chuck

[Plucky]

It should be said that there are further refinements for naptha that are much hotter than VM&P naptha. Any other naptha is sure to damage the finish. Sometimes these are called "high flash" naptha, "hot" naptha or "fast" naptha.

I must admit, I am not familiar with these alternative 'deadly' napthas, nor have I seen them available on my shopping expeditions. It should be noted, however, that I also have not been looking for them. I assume that 'hot' or 'high flash' naptha has a higher flash point, and is therefore slower to evaporate, which could certainly cause problems.

NEVER under any circumstances allow solvent of any kind to touch the bare wood surfaces in your guitar. Some of the wood poors(sic) can act like a one way valve, the same way Gortex fabric does. The solvent goes in, but it can't fully get out. The solvent can get under the finish while trying to find another way out of the wood and cause damage.

Good advice, though common naptha evaporates extremely quickly at room temperature, and would not normally qualify as one of the many solvents that could permeate the wood effectively enough to to cause significant damage unless applied heavily enough to saturate the surface for too long.

I agree, however, that one should be careful of bare wood areas at all times, as the incredibly thin deposits of lacquer which border the bare wood can be compromised as Chuck mentioned. Problems can also occur if contaminants are carried from the finished surface to the bare wood using naptha as a vehicle, thus allowing deeper penetration into the pores of the wood, affecting future restoration. I should have been more detailed to this effect in my first post, but ran short of time. I intended to append it later. Sorry for that.

I don't know what Gibson used to finish Les Paul guitars in the 70's. It may not be lacquer at all.

Gibson has used lacquer since the earlier part of the twentieth century, with the exception of custom colors, which can be acrylic. Top coats were always lacquer(there may be some odd exceptions).

overall I think cleaning any guitar with finishing solvents is a bad idea

I've never really considered naptha to be a 'finishing' solvent. I've only ever used it to clean things and burn things. Not always the same things, though...

-Ron

[LtKojak]

Originally Posted by Plucky

Hi, 13eastie. I suggest you use naptha to clean every surface on the guitar.

Naphta = Lighter fluid. Zippo works well, even if it's a bit on the expensive side.

HTH,

[Bruce Johnson]

I'd recommend wiping it down with denatured alcohol, rather than Naptha. Then, rub out the finish with a good rubbing compound (I use 3M's Perfect It 3000 and 3000CS) and buff it back up to a gloss.

Most likely, there's a thick coat of brownish slime all over the instrument. It's old finishing wax, human wax, mud, blood, beer and tobacco smoke. That's what you have to get off of there. What you've probably done so far is just polished up the brown slime.

Maybe it's just me, but I kind of like old guitars that have that look and smell. They've been there and done those gigs.

[Sweetfinger]

Originally Posted by Bruce Johnson

I'd recommend wiping it down with denatured alcohol, rather than Naptha.

DANGER!
DANGER!
DANGER! Alcohol WILL dissolve the finish! NOT RECOMMENDED! Naptha would be my go-to for this job, and even then, I'd test it in an inconspicuous area. All that sweat, cig smoke and whatever can dissolve into the guitar finish, changing its composition and properties. One thing you're going to HAVE to do, no whining, is remove ALL the hardware and components from the guitar and clean them very thoroughly with solvents. If your test area goes well on the guitar, do it as well, taking care that no liquid carrying "smoky" flavors drips into screw holes or cavities. The last thing: That smell will NEVER completely go away. Some amount has infused into the wood itself and you won't be able to remove that part. This type of project is serious busy work. If this came into my shop, I'd probably charge a couple hundred bucks if it went EASY.

[Bruce Johnson]

Um, I've wiped down many, many vintage guitars with denatured alcohol and don't recall ruining any of them. I guess I should clarify that you put some alcohol on a clean polishing cloth and wipe gently with it. You don't pour it on the instrument.

[Chuck H]

Originally Posted by Sweetfinger

DANGER!
DANGER!
DANGER! Alcohol WILL dissolve the finish!

Many instruments are finished with shellac. Alcohol will desolve shellac. If you ever tried alcohol on a quality acoustic guitar top or an orchestral stringed instrument (violin, cello, etc) that could be where you got this belief. Alcohol is a safe cleaner for most other finishes. But...

Originally Posted by Sweetfinger

All that sweat, cig smoke and whatever can dissolve into the guitar finish, changing its composition and properties.

+1. That's where my but comes in (uh...). I've seen this many, many times. The finish may not even be cleanable because it's composition has changed to something unmanageable. Your suggestion (and mine above) to test an area is a good one no matter what solvent is tried. And even then there could be soft spots in the finish that behave unpredictably.

+1 on everything else you wrote. Removal of hardware, etc... This is a job for an owner, not a shop as it takes too much time and care to afford someone else doing it.

Chuck

[Sweetfinger]

Originally Posted by Bruce Johnson

Um, I've wiped down many, many vintage guitars with denatured alcohol and don't recall ruining any of them. I guess I should clarify that you put some alcohol on a clean polishing cloth and wipe gently with it. You don't pour it on the instrument.

Maybe your alcohol was old and had absorbed a lot of water, or is of a lesser concentration than mine?
I just did a test swab on an 80's Martin that's going to get some finish work done anyway. I got 1 clean quick swipe with denatured alcohol that didn't start dissolving the finish. the second swipe started to haze, and the subsequent swipes were progressively stripping the finish. I stand by my recommendation.
I've also seen guitars that have had slight burns in the finish from having whiskey or other hooch spilled on them. Alcohol WILL dissolve nitro lacquer finish and should be used with care.

[13eastie]

Many thanks for the replies, guys, some helpful stuff there.

I'm going to do a spot test with the naptha and see what happens, before weighing up whether I am worried enough about the smell (of which I have to say it would be impossible to become fond) to proceed.

First, the finish on the guitar has been traumatised a lot: belt buckle damage (bare mahogany), at least one drop that has cracked the binding, and almost complete erosion of the laquer on the neck. The gold plate has also worn off most of the hardware. Like any Les Paul this 50lb lump is bomb-proof, but the finish is not.

There is no way I'm going to permeate the neck, finger-board, or the bare mahogany areas on the body with organic solvents if the risk of harm to the lacquer or wood itself is as great as you guys have suggested.

Reading the advice here, the risk of the lacqer responding badly to treatment sounds rather high. I certainly don't want to cause more damage and destroy the character of the guitar - I like it more than any of the dozen or so of 60's and 70's Pauls I've tried out.

The finish is wine-red, but like a good, old claret has thinned in hue and browned. The binding is positively brown also.

My worry would be that the smell and appearance of the guitar are (unfortunately) inextricably linked.

The character of the guitar is worth more to me, on balance, that its sanitisation.

I've no plans to sell the thing, so who knows, maybe in 50 years it might start to smell okay?

Cheers, anyway.

[Chuck H]

Well you still have the option of using copious dry deodorant as I suggested above. That should trim down the 50 year wait.

Chuck

[David Schwab]

Naptha is generally used to clean dirty finishes, as well as degreasing something before finishing.

Sodium bicarbonate might also help the case smell better.

I have an Ibanez case for a bass I bought back in '87. The case had a weird odor that was a combination of fish and chocolate! Eventually the fish odor went away and the chocolate stayed. The bass smelled like chocolate for a long time, but not any more.

I'm thinking they used fish glue to glue the liner in the case and used some kind of chocolate sent to cover it up.

[Chuck H]

I mentioned alternating intervals with dry deodorant and a cloth bag filled with activated charcoal and sometimes with baking soda (sodium bicarbonate). Read my post above. I think it would work.

Chuck

[JGundry]

I have A 52'/57' Les Paul conversion that stank so bad it made my eyes water when I played it. My band members even noticed the stink on stage. They called it my Cess Paul. The stink was mainly from mildew. Since the stink on your guitar is so persistent I wonder if the sewer smell you are getting is a mixture of bar stink and mildew?

The only think that got rid of the stink was 3 days of non stop UV light exposure. I have a UV drying box for violins so I was able to do this. Evidently mold has a daily life cycle that involves sending out spores at around 3 AM. The 3mdays of UV killed the mold and also kept the mold under the surface from being able to reproduce. The guitar is completely stink free.

Before I tried the UV. I tried Listerine, baking soda, ozone, naptha, vinegar, Virtuoso cleaner. Absolutely nothing touched it except the UV light. Sunlight may do the trick also but you obviously won't get 3 days of non stop exposure.

[Sweetfinger]

Originally Posted by Chuck H

Many instruments are finished with shellac. Alcohol will desolve shellac. If you ever tried alcohol on a quality acoustic guitar top or an orchestral stringed instrument (violin, cello, etc) that could be where you got this belief. Alcohol is a safe cleaner for most other finishes. But...
Chuck

Orchestra instruments are shellac, but you pretty much have to go back to pre-war times before you see guitars finished with shellac. There are some custom builders that do french polish but I can't think of a regular production brand that'll be shellac. Its just way too labor intensive to be used in a factory. Martin switched to nitro in the mid 1920's- basically, if it isn't home-made, high-end custom built, or over a century old, it is going to be lacquer, or some other modern sprayed finish. A Gibson Les Paul is going to be lacquer for sure.

I get my beliefs about alcohol/finishes from 25 years of guitar repair experience, half of that time as a professional. I've got around 100 or so instruments in my shop right now getting various repairs. I only press the point to keep someone (who might be reading this) from ruining the finish on 'grampa's' old guitar. You can't imagine the gruesome things I've seen done to guitars.

[LtKojak]

Originally Posted by JGundry

I have A 52'/57' Les Paul conversion that stank so bad it made my eyes water when I played it. My band members even noticed the stink on stage. They called it my Cess Paul. The stink was mainly from mildew. Since the stink on your guitar is so persistent I wonder if the sewer smell you are getting is a mixture of bar stink and mildew?

The only think that got rid of the stink was 3 days of non stop UV light exposure. I have a UV drying box for violins so I was able to do this. Evidently mold has a daily life cycle that involves sending out spores at around 3 AM. The 3mdays of UV killed the mold and also kept the mold under the surface from being able to reproduce. The guitar is completely stink free.

Before I tried the UV. I tried Listerine, baking soda, ozone, naptha, vinegar, Virtuoso cleaner. Absolutely nothing touched it except the UV light. Sunlight may do the trick also but you obviously won't get 3 days of non stop exposure.

Man, this is an AMAZING story...