PE vs. SPN... do I care?

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Hey all, thanks for all the great info.

I combed the past threads hoping to find some information about the differences between plain enamel and single poly nylon. Basically, I've used PE and heavy formvar and I'm wondering if it is worth my time/effort to try SPN. To my ears there is a strong difference between PE and HF... the PE is cleaner sounding, tighter, and the highs are very defined. The HF is maybe a bit softer, the highs and lows sound less separated than with the PE, the low end is much looser, it reminds me of well broken-in speaker. You know what I mean, when you find an old tube 1x12 that has an original speaker that just rocks out, even if it is on its last leg. This could just be because I was experimenting with different winding styles at the same time, but that is the general thing I'm hearing so far.

What might I expect from SPN? Is it worth it, or should I just invest in restocking my PE?

Thanks,

[SkinnyWire]

Well, let the fun begin.

I'm not going to comment on what you may or may not hear in terms of the difference in tone. I will say ... yes. It's more than worth your time/effort to experiment with SPN.

[salvarsan]

Originally Posted by FunkyKikuchiyo

What might I expect from SPN? Is it worth it, or should I just invest in restocking my PE?

Everyone who has worked with different insulations says that the differences are audible and small. *You work with what you can get.


When it matters, some of the members measure wire diameter and resistance for each spool they use.


In a good (but not perfect) world, you'd like #42 AWG wire (single build) to be .0028" diameter +/- .0001", and 10 feet of it should measure near 17 ohms DC resistance.


In practice, you'd like all your wire to be equally out of tolerance.
-drh

[belwar]

I've got a 10 pound spool of SPN in 42 awg, from Shelhav. If you are interested I'll sell it for 2/3 of what I paid for it... $100 via paypal.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Thanks for the offer on the spool - but I think that's way more wire than I need when I'm not sure if I'll like it or not.

Feel free to dispute what I'm hearing. I think I have pretty good ears for timbre, but I may be hearing something from another element of the pickup rather than the windings, so if you disagree I see nothing wrong with that.

[David King]

Duckspaz on Ebay is a good place to go to try the various gauges of spn. You can always unload it if you don't like it. I've decided to work with it because it's reliably available and cheap and solderable.

[Possum]

I think you'd probably find it useful for the "dude" players. Rock....

[David Schwab]

I also use SPN.

Originally Posted by FunkyKikuchiyo

What might I expect from SPN?

You hear it all the time from large pickup makers.

[Possum]

DUDE!

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

dude, I have no idea what you're talking about.......

[SkinnyWire]

Originally Posted by FunkyKikuchiyo

dude, I have no idea what you're talking about.......

Some great pickups have been, and continue to be produced with SPN. The solderable type is also much easier to work with than PE or Formvar. Some cork-sniffers continue to peddle the PE only myth. YMMV. Check it out for yourself. Even your opinions on what PE or Formvar "does" will likely change over time with different winds.

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by SkinnyWire

The solderable type is also much easier to work with than PE or Formvar.

I was just thinking that today while working... how much more enjoyable SPN is to work with in terms of saving time and effort. Eliminates that one extra step of removing insulation on PE before soldering...

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by FunkyKikuchiyo

dude, I have no idea what you're talking about.......

Apparently not. What do you think companies like Duncan and DiMarzio (as well as Gibson and Fender) use? It ain't PE! Gibson uses a dark colored SPN. The rest is all marketing.

To give you an idea how you can't believe anything Gibson writes, look up the awful Zoot Suit SG. They say:

Frets
The traditional “medium/jumbo” fret wire is a combination nickel and silver alloy (approximately 80 percent nickel and 20 percent silver) specifically designed for long life and superior wear.

Ummm nope! Nickel Silver doesn't contain any silver! It's 60% copper, 20% Nickel, 20% zinc!

Or how about the tone pot?

The Zoot Suit features one master tone control with a potentiometer made by CTS. The pot (short for potentiometer) has an ohm reading of 500k, which is the highest value for a panel pot, and allows for a very smooth transition from highs and lows.

Glad they didn't use a 1M tone pot!

How about the pickup wire?

Wire Material
The wire used in these pickups is made from polysol copper, which is insulated to reduce capacitance leakage. It is the same wire used in pickup manufacturing in the 1950s and 1960s.

Ummmm....... OK! You sure don't want your capacitance to leak out all over that awful plywood clown suit body!

Polysol-N is Polyurethane/Nylon, aka SPN (Solderable Poly/Nylon). Sure, Gibson used that in the 50's.

PE is too expensive for a large company to use, but it's only expensive because it's only made by one company and not in large quantities. There's not much demand for it, so it's expensive.

Major pickup makers use SPN.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by SkinnyWire

Even your opinions on what PE or Formvar "does" will likely change over time with different winds.

Exactly. When people say Formvar, they often mean Heavy Formvar. Try heavy build SPN, and it will have the same tonal characteristics as HF, which is because of the heavy insulation, more than the type of insulation.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Yikes. Someone needs to look up german silver on wikipedia and send the link to Gibson. It is depressing, but I can't say I'm all that surprised.

I'm also seeing that the fingerboard is "the highest grade ebony on the planet".... which apparently uses a grading system they just made up. It also has a "classical style peghead"..... I think I'll have to send a picture to the guy who made my Spanish classical and tell him he did it wrong.

And of course, using the word "radiuses" sends a chill up my spine.... is radii that hard of a word to learn?

What I wasn't following was the "dude" exchange, I wasn't quite sure what you were referring to. I guess this infamous product description?

They're using insulated magnet wire? Gee, maybe that's why none of my pickups have been working yet, I've been using enamel-less wire.

I think that goes right up on the list with the plek for stupid things to say about guitar manufacturing.

Thanks for the info, I think I had PE and SPN mixed up in my head in terms of availability and price.

It seems like a good rule of thumb is the thickness is what matters and not the material? Having done relatively little experimenting, I wasn't sure if the actual synthetic might make an impact winding around corners, etc. That certainly makes sense, I have to admit I heard less of a difference between even PE and HF than I was led to believe there was.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by FunkyKikuchiyo

And of course, using the word "radiuses" sends a chill up my spine.... is radii that hard of a word to learn?

"Radiuses" is actually correct, as is radii. When you get into talking about building guitars, you end up using it as a verb! That gets iffy, just like "relicing" an instrument.

But, yeah, some dumbo copy writer at Gibson doesn't know his radius from his elbow.

What I wasn't following was the "dude" exchange, I wasn't quite sure what you were referring to. I guess this infamous product description?

I didn't get that either... Whacho talkin' 'bout Dave?

He probably didn't want me opening that can of worms... People have strong opinions on this topic.

They're using insulated magnet wire?

Yeah, damn good thing too!

I think that goes right up on the list with the plek for stupid things to say about guitar manufacturing.

No, the PLEK looks cool... if you have the money. I sure don't. I'm very good at fretwork, but I like machines! Same goes for CNC. Nothing wrong with precision and repeatability. Yeah, I'm a Normite.

Thanks for the info, I think I had PE and SPN mixed up in my head in terms of availability and price.

Now some people will say that PE has a different tone from SPN. I haven't tried it, so I can't comment. Oh, Dave?

It seems like a good rule of thumb is the thickness is what matters and not the material? Having done relatively little experimenting, I wasn't sure if the actual synthetic might make an impact winding around corners, etc. That certainly makes sense, I have to admit I heard less of a difference between even PE and HF than I was led to believe there was.

I find the heavy builds to be a bit brighter.

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

But, yeah, some dumbo copy writer at Gibson doesn't know his radius from his elbow.

I think you hit it on the head...you have the writers who don't know about all the aspects about their product.....unless Gibson is using Freelancers to write their copy and technical information.

This sort of incorrect info should be caught and corrected in the proofing process unless they have Freelancers for that too who also don't know.

With the way the economy is, they're probably using outside contractors to do that kind of stuff since its cheaper than maintaining a full-time employee.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

Still, I find it hard to believe that no one within the company who would supposedly know these things hasn't bothered to look at the site, even if it is just at home for their own curiosity. I'm sure every employee has looked at the website, and each one would probably know who to tell if they found a mistake... not to mention management who should be proofreading it, even if they are paying someone else to do it anyway - it is their product, they should take at least some responsibility!

[David Schwab]

My opinion of some of Gibson's currents products is they were conceived by the same level of intellect as the person who wrote that copy!

It's nice to see them try some new stuff, but they can do much better than that.

[FunkyKikuchiyo]

It seems like most manufacturers really are just playing Mr. Potato Head with guitar parts anyway, especially Fender. They are just working with basic permutations of stuff that is already out there. I can't say I blame them - truly unique stuff just doesn't fly until it receives some sort of endorsement. Gibson though has a serious case of "emperor's new clothes" going on for them. They treat their dealers horribly too, if it wasn't for online stuff their sales would be hurting a lot by now.

Anyway, will try SPN soon. I may never bother with the heavy formvar again except to use up the bit that I have now, if the heavy poly nylon is just as good. Now just to figure out where to order... I know that's covered in prior threads and the FAQ, so I won't bug you guys with that.

[StarryNight]

Originally Posted by FunkyKikuchiyo

It seems like most manufacturers really are just playing Mr. Potato Head with guitar parts anyway, especially Fender. They are just working with basic permutations of stuff that is already out there. I can't say I blame them - truly unique stuff just doesn't fly until it receives some sort of endorsement. Gibson though has a serious case of "emperor's new clothes" going on for them. They treat their dealers horribly too, if it wasn't for online stuff their sales would be hurting a lot by now.

Anyway, will try SPN soon. I may never bother with the heavy formvar again except to use up the bit that I have now, if the heavy poly nylon is just as good. Now just to figure out where to order... I know that's covered in prior threads and the FAQ, so I won't bug you guys with that.

If you do order some, please report back. I've been thinking of trying SPN wire as well.

[Possum]

You guys need to be in the advertising business a few years and you'd understand better....a professional copywriter wrote that crap, maybe even a guitar player and was given a few facts or not and got it wrong, its typical and expected for a technical product and a dumb writer :-)
MAN, I'll tell you one thing, that guitar is going to be collectible, probably costs a ton of money but that would be one to buy and stash for 20 years. Also read the text on the pickup and look carefully at that pickup, there is some very intelligent design in that thing and its there totally open to see if you look hard. No, its not a PAF but its a very cool design...