Princeton Reverb clone with 12" speaker?

[tubeswell]

I have decided to splash out on a Weber kit for once (partly as a gesture to help out the Weber family corporation, and partly because the Kiwi$ is getting into likeable territory against the greenback at the 'mo, but mostly just because I thought it would be nice to have a halfway decent looking combo for a change ).

So I was looking at their 6A14 (PR clone) with a 12S alnico speaker option here https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits_60a.htm#6A14 and I am wondering what this will go like in a PR clone? (I guess it must be good if its on Ted's site). The 10 gives the amp a nice bright sound and I guess the 12S must be quite bright too, but maybe bigger sounding.

Anyone got any views on a PR clone with a 12" speaker? Good/Bad/Indifferent?

[JoeM]

tubeswell,

I have a Princeton with a 12" speaker. It's a great amp, nice and compact. Years ago I was able to fit a EV12L in it (I dont have that speaker anymore though) and even at the 15 or so watts it was pretty loud. I think you'll be very happy with a PR clone with a 12".

[tubeswell]

Thanks for that comment Joe

FWIW I ordered the kit today - so I'm interested to see how long it takes (to get here)

[bgood]

Tubeswell. Would be very interested in your impression of the kit when you get it. Would you post? I'm about to pull the trigger on the same one with a cab for a 12 inch speaker. Weber is running a 20% off on cabs and with the already inexpensive pricing it's in the budget but I'm really interested in the cab quality and components. I had heard switches, jacks etc were pretty cheap but recently they upgraded. I'll probably get the kit stock without trannys and buy some MM seperately.

Can you post what you think when you get it?

Thanks,

Bob

[toobnoob]

Hi guys- first post.
I have a PR clone with a 12" Weber by Wayne Jones (Headstrong Amps), the lil king. I love it. I sometimes push a Weber California Alnico (JBL clone) and it sounds incredible- this was one of Wes Montgomery's setups other than the Standel.
Wayne puts a british style cone on a 12F150 weber to tame some of the highs and puts Mallory caps in it.
The 12 S is less efficient so you can get tube OD with it at lower volume. Cranked up, this is a LOUD amp, but I have enough clean headroom for small clubs.
I would upgrade the Weber trannies to heyboer and get some mallory 150's and a good can cap like F&T or JJ, as long as you are going to the trouble of building a blackface. EH 6V6's sound pretty good. Minimal cost to upgrade, and weber is using better pots and jacks now. Hope you guys love yours as much as I love mine. I hardly ever use my collection of big amps anymore.

[Steve Conner]

Hey, do you actually know what amps Wes Montgomery used? I'm a big Wes fan and would be very interested to know.

As far as I know, a Princeton with a 12" shoehorned into it sounds better than the original 10". It was a popular mod, and that's why Weber offers the cabinet with a 12" baffle option.

[JoeM]

Originally Posted by Steve Conner

Hey, do you actually know what amps Wes Montgomery used? I'm a big Wes fan and would be very interested to know.

As far as I know, a Princeton with a 12" shoehorned into it sounds better than the original 10". It was a popular mod, and that's why Weber offers the cabinet with a 12" baffle option.

Steve,

According to some he used a modded Princeton, but I've never been able to verify that. He did use a Standel with a 15". There's some videos on You-Tube with him using that amp. I have a SS Yamaha that really sounds good for jazz guitar, I'm fortunate to own an L-5. Comes pretty close to Wes's sound. (Gotta use your thumb!)

[tubeswell]

Originally Posted by bgood

Tubeswell. Would be very interested in your impression of the kit when you get it.

Can you post what you think when you get it?

Thanks,

Bob

Yeah but its not likely to get here til late November - so the thread will be cooler by then 8-)

[toobnoob]

Steve- I hear that when Wes did his first records he actually used Kenny Burrell's setup. I know Kenny played a 5E3 in the 50s. Wes moved to a Princeton through a 15" JBL then to Standel amps. I read in an article that I can't reference from memory that he was never happy with his sound. I CAN say that my BF Princeton clone pushes my Weber JBL 15" clone quite nicely and gets tons of compliments. I'm building a 5e7 right now and will be running the 15 with it too for a 5E5 effect, its virtually the same circuit with a 4.7M resistor swapped by a 10M in the front end.

[tubeswell]

Well I just got fedex notification of pickup from the factory, so that's only 3 weeks and 2 days after I ordered it, which means that they are turning things around a bit faster than expected. Expected arrival here is early Nov.

[tubeswell]

Well the packages (2 boxes) arrived this afternoon - 3 weeks and 6 days after the order - that's pretty impressive considering it included going round the other side of the world in that time too. Thank you very much Weber VST.

I haven't had time to check the items delivered against the BOM yet, but the quality of the parts seems to be good (switchcraft sockets and CTS pots etc)

The only minor gripe at first glance was that they sent the wrong power chord for NZ (but I've got a few spares that will fit so that's not a big deal).

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Originally Posted by tubeswell

Well the packages (2 boxes) arrived this afternoon - 3 weeks and 6 days after the order - that's pretty impressive considering it included going round the other side of the world in that time too. Thank you very much Weber VST.

I haven't had time to check the items delivered against the BOM yet, but the quality of the parts seems to be good (switchcraft sockets and CTS pots etc)

The only minor gripe at first glance was that they sent the wrong power chord for NZ (but I've got a few spares that will fit so that's not a big deal).

We'll assume you meant Switchcraft jacks, not sockets.
What was the total shipping/handling and insurance cost for the whole package?
I'm about done shipping to NZ or Australia due to the outrageous costs of shipping....

[tubeswell]

Originally Posted by Bruce / Mission Amps

We'll assume you meant Switchcraft jacks, not sockets.
What was the total shipping/handling and insurance cost for the whole package?
I'm about done shipping to NZ or Australia due to the outrageous costs of shipping....

Yeah - jacks that's what I meant

The kit was US$585 and freight was US$190 incl insurance (FedEx) - I had to pay about NZ$130 tax on top of that for customs clearance when it got here. (total weight 43lbs/19.5kg - incl chassis cab and speaker) so that was ~NZ$1250 all up taking currency conversion into account.

(about one third what a factory assembled tube amp like that would've cost in NZ, and about 10% more than what it would've cost me in parts if I scratch built it myself with better tubes and a more expensive speaker. However this saves me some work).

[tubeswell]

Looking into the details I bit more (actually when I was checking the BOM list against what they shipped), I've discovered that the kit they shipped me has a DR/Deluxe/Tweed Tremolux type OT (6k6 Pr Z) (Weber model W022723/125P26A) - I suppose this will make it cleaner sounding and a bit more compressed than the stock 15W 8k PR OT. I wonder if they do that as a default if they are including a 12" speaker? Or is it a standard issue??

FWIW The PT HT Winding is spec'd for 340-0-340 150mA.

[Bruce / Mission Amps]

Originally Posted by tubeswell

Looking into the details I bit more (actually when I was checking the BOM list against what they shipped), I've discovered that the kit they shipped me has a DR/Deluxe/Tweed Tremolux type OT (6k6 Pr Z) (Weber model W022723/125P26A) - I suppose this will make it cleaner sounding and a bit more compressed than the stock 15W 8k PR OT. I wonder if they do that as a default if they are including a 12" speaker? Or is it a standard issue??

FWIW The PT HT Winding is spec'd for 340-0-340 150mA.

Wow both transformers are not stock Princeton fare... and the PT is way over kill for a low wattage Princeton.... however, who knows if those Chinese current ratings are real or how they compare to other manufacturer's ratings.
Right, the Princeton used a 12 watt OT at about 8K ohms and a much smaller power tranny, which was also found in the 3-4 watt Vibro Champ amps!
Actually, those changes are possibly enough that it is now going to be much more like smaller cabinet version of Deluxe Reverb but with a cathodyne phase/inverter driver instead of a long tail pair phase inverter.
That isn't a bad thing if you want more of everything.

Who knows if it was an accident or standard... they pretty much can do what they want with their amp and parts and they make no bones about them not being dead knock offs of any previously marketed vintage amps.

Your $190 for shipping of this kit was actually a decent price compared to some of the shipping quotes I'm getting now.

[tubeswell]

Does anybody here belong to the Weber Amps N More forum? I have applied for login registration to discuss this with a few builders of this kit over there, but they are a bit slow responding to my registration request, and if anyone here can put in a plug for me over there to get things moving along that would be much appreciated thanks.

Cheers

[hasserl]

Originally Posted by tubeswell

Does anybody here belong to the Weber Amps N More forum? I have applied for login registration to discuss this with a few builders of this kit over there, but they are a bit slow responding to my registration request, and if anyone here can put in a plug for me over there to get things moving along that would be much appreciated thanks.

Cheers

OK, I put in a plug for you. I haven't been around there much lately, and I had to reset my password to get in! But got that done then posted a plug for you in the Bull Pen forum. Hope someone see's it and moves on things for you.

[tubeswell]

Thanks hasserl.

[tubeswell]

I have been getting feedback from one or two Ozzie customers of Weber VST that their EU version of the PT for these amps (W025130 EU) is a bit of a fizzer. Apparently several of them have burnt out with overheating after a relatively short period of time.

The HT winding is rated for 150mA, which should theoretically be fine for 6V6s (and the US -120V equivalent apparently doesn't have the same problem), and the 6.3V winding is rated for 5A and the 5V winding is rated for 3A. So I'm wondering if it could be something to do with the overall power handling capability of the 240V version. (Not that this should matter should it? If the primary voltage is twice as high, then the current draw will be half as much on the primary - all other things being equal - I would've thought. E x I = P)

If anyone has any experience with the Weber EU PTs here, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say.

[JoeM]

I've read posts refering to bad EU version PTs, I'm not sure if Ted ever resolved that issue. Hopefully you didn't get one with problems.

[tubeswell]

Hmmm... Do you think the Weber's would mind/object/take a law suite against me, if I got the PT in question reverse engineered by my tried and true blue local winder to assess any potential reliability issues and provide me with a full report and recommendations? He's a very experienced winder who has been in business for about 40 years and knows pretty much everything there is to know about winding PTs for "EU" voltages.

(I am seriously considering getting him to wind me an alternative one anyway).

[Steve Conner]

Just don't tell them you're going to do it, do it, and keep quiet about the results. If you find any flaws in the transformer, you then have a bargaining stick that you can beat Weber with.

Oops, too late, you already told us you're going to do it.

Maybe he wound for 220V. In the UK and presumably Aus too, it's 240+. My old workplace used to measure 250 once everyone had gone home. In Eastern Europe it can get down to 200.

[tubeswell]

Hi Steve

The Primary does have 220 and 240 taps. Maybe those guys whose trannies fried were wiring them using the 220V tap as you say. But how much more strain on the tubes would this have caused? (If indeed it was they which had gone and taken out the PT with them. How likely is that??. It would've only made the secondaries 8% higher by my (- probably faulty) reckoning.)

[tubeswell]

Well I talked to my regular (NZ) Transformer supplier/winder earlier today and he mentioned that it was apparently quite a common problem for US suppliers of PTs to countries with EU voltages, where they don't understand the implications of 50Hz mains supplies when they wind PTs for "EU' voltages.

So then I quickly googled and found these, which have helped shed a little more light on the issue for me.
50 Hz vs. 60 Hz Power Transformers

Transformers
So a 230VAC 50Hz mains supply means you need about 20% more iron than a US 'equivalent'? (because of the bigger area under the sine wave function for the 230V 50Hz)

I am beginning to understand why the Weber EU PTs might not be up to the job, but I don't know if they have corrected the problem with what they supplied me or not (because this is the 1st time I've bought a Weber PT and I've got nothing else to compare it with). I have decided to get a NZ made replacement PT for it anyway. 2CW