Gorman winders

[EFK]

Anyone with some experience with winders know anything about Gorman machine corp? I am particularly interested in their "Star Winder" -

Gorman Machine - Coil Winding Machine Manufacturer

Looks like a pretty heavy-duty little bugger for winding a single coil at a time.

Or, anyone know of any proven winders of similar size/style, programmable w/ auto traverse, made by other companies? Thanks!

[David Schwab]

It looks really nice. I think it's about $14,000 though!

[EFK]

It is pricey but I'm looking around at some used stuff too. They made an earlier model called the "Bobbineer" which is very similar. I'm not exactly sure what to look for in some of these small programmable winders, though. What would be useful, what would be overkill or a waste etc. I don't have the time to make one and frankly would rather spend the money than the time. I've thought about converting my old belt-driven metal lathe but it's just silly big and the electric bill alone would be killer!

[chevalij]

Originally Posted by EFK

It is pricey but I'm looking around at some used stuff too. They made an earlier model called the "Bobbineer" which is very similar. I'm not exactly sure what to look for in some of these small programmable winders, though. What would be useful, what would be overkill or a waste etc. I don't have the time to make one and frankly would rather spend the money than the time. I've thought about converting my old belt-driven metal lathe but it's just silly big and the electric bill alone would be killer!

You'll spend 14K on a winder, but are worried about the electric bill? Am I missing something here?

[EFK]

I see spending money on a winder as an investment - can use it to make a return. An electric bill is just another damned bill that keeps coming with not much visible return!

Frankly I would not spend 14K on a winder. I'm looking for something used and comparable - I know they can be had for much less, but I'm not sure where to look. I was hoping some of you guys using small CNC or programmable winders might chime in with some options. Something with an auto traverse first and foremost - doesn't necessarily have to be CNC or overly complicated.

[JGundry]

If you want to experiment try RoboWare software. It turns RC servos into CNC controlled servos. It's cheap, simple and the software is very good for pickup winding. The moves you program in to the software are displayed on a linear graph and you can loop the movement if you like and play them back at different speeds after it is already programmed in. I only use vintage winders now but when I made my computer controlled machine I used this software.

Mini SSC II Serial Servo Controller/Robo-Ware Order Page

[David King]

J Gundry,
I was just thinking about that last night, using a $14 RC servo to push the wire back and forth. The first problem is that the servo movement isn't linear so you have the wire piling up at the edges if you don't compensate in the programing.
It would be nice for a standalone winder traverse using a PIC controller but how do you get there from here?
The arduino project boards would be a way to get into it at a reasonable price if they were actually capable of handing the task...

Controller:
Arduino (Atmega328 - assembled) [Duemilanove w/Atmega328] - $30.00 : Adafruit Industries, Unique & fun DIY electronics and kits
Motor shield:
Adafruit Motor/Stepper/Servo Shield for Arduino kit [v1.0] - $19.50 : Adafruit Industries, Unique & fun DIY electronics and kits
Servo:
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXVW07

[David Schwab]

I have a Lego Mindscape robot set that someone gave me. You can make it work as a scanner, so I had been thinking of messing with it to make a winder, but it all seemed like more work than it was worth.

[EFK]

"I have a Lego Mindscape robot set that someone gave me."

Who wouldn't love Lego!!!!!

[JGundry]

Originally Posted by David King

J Gundry,
I was just thinking about that last night, using a $14 RC servo to push the wire back and forth. The first problem is that the servo movement isn't linear so you have the wire piling up at the edges if you don't compensate in the programing.
It would be nice for a standalone winder traverse using a PIC controller but how do you get there from here?
The arduino project boards would be a way to get into it at a reasonable price if they were actually capable of handing the task...

Controller:
Arduino (Atmega328 - assembled) [Duemilanove w/Atmega328] - $30.00 : Adafruit Industries, Unique & fun DIY electronics and kits
Motor shield:
Adafruit Motor/Stepper/Servo Shield for Arduino kit [v1.0] - $19.50 : Adafruit Industries, Unique & fun DIY electronics and kits
Servo:
TowerHobbies.com | Futaba S3004 Standard Ball Bearing Servo

You can get a linear attachment that fits a Futaba hobby servo. One cool thing about using a hobby servo is you can control it with the RC transmitter to guide the wire via the remote. The RC servo is not going to be as sturdy as a CNC set up but it really does not need to be too heavy duty for pickup winding. One advantage is the servo is so compact that you can probably retrofit any winder with it after a few trips to the hobby store. CNC is probably the best long term solution but the hobby servo does work. The Roboware software is a nice interface IMO.

[peskywinnets]

My MK1 coil winder (now ret'd!) used a PIC to count pulses from an encoder wheel (a CD complete with a label printed with 192 black stripes like this one - http://www.toeminator.com/Toeminator...ts-Encoder.JPG - but with heaps more stripes - to get more resolution for the traverse). The encoder wheel was attached to the faceplate - for every x stripes it pulsed a traversal stepper....it worked well, though being new to PICs, it took me a good couple of weeks of nights to learn from scratch.

Having 'been there, done that', I can't emphasise strongly enough that the proper way to go, is to get yourself hold of a couple of cheap steppers, a cheap stepper drive board & download Mach3 - it's free (with some G-Code output limit constraints, but for winding pickups you'd *never* be impacted by those constraints).

You can really get Mach3 to sing and dance very easily...for example, when I wind a coil I want the first couple of windings to go slow (so I can apply epoxy)...then wind fast for the bulk of the wind, then stop half way through (to eyeball it) then fast again, then slow for the last few turns so I can wipe off the excess epoxy....then stop in an exact position I need (so the 'end wire' sets in epoxy at the required position). It does all of that automatically, leaving me to grin from the sidelines. I hope to hook a pneumatic epoxy dispenser up to Mach3 soon & use the 'coolant on' control signal to have the epoxy dispense automatically etc.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by peskywinnets

I hope to hook a pneumatic epoxy dispenser up to Mach3 soon & use the 'coolant on' control signal to have the epoxy dispense automatically etc.

Once that set, your dispenser would be useless.

Why do you use epoxy while winding?

[peskywinnets]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

Once that set, your dispenser would be useless.

No, I just throw away the mixing nozzle off the top of the dual epoxy syringe gun (they cost about 80c).

I'm talking about something like this (albeit this is a single syringe variant)...

(pic lifted off Ebay, hence the text written across the middle)

Originally Posted by David Schwab

Why do you use epoxy while winding?

I need bobbinless coils - I'm sure there are other ways, but it works for me!

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by peskywinnets

No, I just throw away the mixing nozzle off the top of the dual epoxy syringe gun (they cost about 80c).

I'm talking about something like this (albeit this is a single syringe variant)...

(pic lifted off Ebay, hence the text written across the middle)

THat sure wouldn't mix the epoxy well!

I need bobbinless coils - I'm sure there are other ways, but it works for me!

Oh yeah, I forgot that. You know how a few pickups makers do it... Kent Armstrong makes bobbinless coils. He winds them on some type of coil form... it;s like something with two dowels that holes the ends of the coil. Then he dunks the whole assembly in wax. After a while he removes them and when it cools, removes the coil form, which adjusts to be able to remove it from the coil.

Another interesting one is the Q-Tuner pickups. He uses bondable magnet wire. After winding on a form, he sticks it in the oven, where the wire glues together.

Hey, but if the system works, it works!

[peskywinnets]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

THat sure wouldn't mix the epoxy well!

It was just an example (& the first piccie I could lazily lay my hands on from Ebay - more to illustrate the overall kit than specifics)...the nozzle I use, is actually a static mixing nozzle - & mixes the two part syringe based Epoxy into one nicely....



(as an aside, prior to going with these nozzles, I found that the if you apply the two epoxy parts into the empty bobbin first, then it gets mixed very well by the wire itself as it winds onto the bobbin it's just a messy way to do it vs these nozzles!)

Re self bond wire ...being still somewhat 'wet behind the ears' (I'm not even sure if you use that expression in the US?!) I only found out about the stuff yesterday - it certainly makes some funky things 'do-able'.

Anyway, we're straying way off - if I recall the original post was about $14,000 pickup winders - carry on!

[David King]

Originally Posted by JGundry

You can get a linear attachment that fits a Futaba hobby servo. One cool thing about using a hobby servo is you can control it with the RC transmitter to guide the wire via the remote. The RC servo is not going to be as sturdy as a CNC set up but it really does not need to be too heavy duty for pickup winding. One advantage is the servo is so compact that you can probably retrofit any winder with it after a few trips to the hobby store. CNC is probably the best long term solution but the hobby servo does work. The Roboware software is a nice interface IMO.

J Gundry,
I'm interested in this linear servo attachment? Does it require what is commonly referred to as a "frontal lobotomy" where the lobe that keeps the servo from turning past the 60º point is removed so it can keep turning in one direction or the other?

Thanks

[David King]

I found this linear servo for $30

PQ-12 Linear Actuator

I found this kit for $14 that claims to linearize the motion of a servo but it obviously doesn't.
http://www.e-clec-tech.com/lisekits.html

Here's an actual linear, worm-drive servo but 55 Euros.
http://www.wes-technik.de/English/light_ng.htm
The video is pretty cool...

[Sock Puppet]

Anyone want to own up to this winding gear with servo?

(Yes, I know who you are)

DSCN4141.jpg

[David King]

Originally Posted by Sock Puppet

Anyone want to own up to this winding gear with servo?

(Yes, I know who you are)

Attachment 6606

I can't quite read the prescription on the pill bottle. Xanax?

[kevinT]

Originally Posted by David King

I can't quite read the prescription on the pill bottle. Xanax?

that is too funny

nice little setup though....maybe it's sprinkled on the machine when it's overworked.

[kevinT]

Gorman are great folks. They took the time to show me around thier factory in Brockton Mass when i visited. Each winder is built by hand and there is usually an 8 to 10 or 12 week lead time...can't remember exactly.

Even Mr. Gorman tinkers at his bench on the shop floor with new things for his winders....reminds me of seymour.

[David King]

The wonderful folks at Gorman inc. aside for a moment,
Here is a great link that describes the operation and control of an RC servo. There's a link to a simple control circuit that uses a 555 timer chip and a few parts to generate pulses.
http://www.horrorseek.com/home/hallo..._RCServos.html
This is starting to sound like a analogue synth project. Must be someone around here that dabbles in that stuff.

We start with a pulse width modulator: 45 times a second we send out a pulse (a square wave) that's somewhere between .6 and 2.1 milliseconds. The carrier frequency is constant at 45Hz, it never changes. The extremities of travel of the traverse are controlled by the minimum and maximum pulse width. Once we set the boundaries of travel for our bobbin width we then want to sweep the pulse width between those two figures for every traverse of the wire across the bobbin. The time that sweep takes determines our turns per layer (depending on the spindle speed). If we want to vary the turns per layer we add another stage of 555 timer to speed up and slow down the sweep speed. We can set boundaries for that sweep of the sweep. Voila! A totally analogue, more or less random scatter winding traverse that probably costs less than $30 in parts..
Anyone want to show me how to wire this thing up?

[JGundry]

Originally Posted by David King

I found this linear servo for $30

PQ-12 Linear Actuator

I found this kit for $14 that claims to linearize the motion of a servo but it obviously doesn't.
Linear Servo Conversion Kit (S148/S3151)

Here's an actual linear, worm-drive servo but 55 Euros.
Light Servo NG
The video is pretty cool...

It is that second kit. For a 1/4" traverse it seems to work well. One thing to consider it that if you were to use an old cam driven traverse there would be some lag when the traverse changes direction. How much would depend upon the machine. I tried the hobby servo both with and without a linear attachment and it is pretty easy to get an even coil without having to program out the non linearity. I used a flexible push rod hooked up to the servo to keep the action as smooth as possible when I used a standard servo. The main down side of the servo is you need to use NiCad batteries for the servo motor and a 9V battery for the data link. So you want to always have a freshly charged set of batteries to swap out if needed. It has been a couple of years since I used my computer controlled winder. I made it from a cheap mini wood lathe and had it running 6 humbucker bobbins at once with no problem. I used the 60hz florescent cycle to act a "strobe" so I could easily pinpoint a 1200 RPM winding speed when I brought the winder up to speed.

[belwar]

I've kill to have a Gorman two plus two.

The pickup for my new bass has 8 coils and man that would help,

[Possum]

That was my old traverse and it was run with an R/C hand control, it didn't work all that well in the end. The point was to minimize repetitive stress damage to hands, it helped but didn't solve the problem. thats my Adams Maxwell winder, LOVE that machine, Seymour uses one for hand winding. Mine got married to Robowinder and they spit out pickups everyday :-)

But, you really shouldn't buy some complex horribly expensive winder, winding pickups has nothing in common with what those machines were designed to do, which is WIND PERFECT COILS. Perfect coils sound like shit, have sharp annoying harmonics and peaks. Then if something breaks, like Wolfe's did you're stuck for months trying to get parts and tech support. What do you really need? Something that will move a wire guide back and forth, that is ALL. Keep it simple, thats what I did and I wouldnt have it any other way, keep your Leesona, keep your Tanacs, and they won't do what a simple low tech winder will, and a simple setup can duplicate a Leesona wind no problem. But you can't wind perfect RF coils, but who would want to....

[EFK]

Possum I think I agree with you. What I'm basically asking is where can one buy a simple machine (not have to make one) which will mechanically move a wire back and forth? It would be nice to be able to buy a complete package - something like a Schatten I guess but with a auto traverse.

[David King]

Well EFK, I'd say stay tuned. If you don't want to build a winder for under $500 someone will be willing to do it for you for a $1000. The Shatten is such a joke I can't believe you'd be taking that thing seriously. Even a new $200 Chinese winder off Ebay will blow that thing out of the water.

[JGundry]

Look for a Coweco winder. I bought one that will do single bobbins for $250.00 and I bought A multi bobbin Coweco for under $400.00. They are solid, compact, quiet and old school. If you had to have one winder to do everything from hand winding to machine guided winding it would be a great choice. It's a shame they are no longer made but you can find them now and then on Ebay.