Finished my first 5E3

[Tele-Cat]

I've built a 5F1 and a 5F4, but this was my first 5E3.

Parts sourced from Hoffman, tubes from Tube Depot, Mercury transformers from JMI Music in Texas. The owner (I built it for a friend, I already have a Clay Hullett-built Deluxe) is acquiring the cab and speaker (He's in FL, I'm in CA) so I just did the chassis.

I confess, this is the first build that didn't need help when I thought I was finished. I managed to get the Champ going myself but Cury Emery helped me with the Super. Damn Weber diagram, I wired up the jacks wrong and had a microphonic tube. I learned a LOT building the Super and I learned almost as much with this one.

Pics Below:

[vjf]

I was following a thread from Scott on your build over at the TGP...very nice work.

I'm curious what others here think about the suggestion by one of the members at the other forum regarding swapping the 5W cathode resistor for 10W.

Here is the post from the other forum:

"Some food for thought, I have been seeing this a lot lately from various builders, but when looking at the amps by those who are really on top of the heap in quality this kind of sticks out.

On the board, the cathode resistor and bypass cap clearances and types. Those caps are rated at 85 degrees Celsius. (85 degree Celsius = 185 degree Fahrenheit) Exposing them by letting them sit against the resistor will shorten the life.
Those 5W ceramic resistors get way hotter than that in less than 1 hour of operation.

If you look inside any Clark, Victoria, Richter and others the are using a 10W or higher resistor and have 1/2 inch or more airspace between the cap and resistor."

[Tele-Cat]

I can tell you I replaced it with a 10-watt resistor (220 ohm instead of 250, closest I could get) and got it the hell away from that cap. I detect no audible difference

I wish I'd made the board a little neater. Next time. Of course, my next build, I'll probably make my own board. I like the boards from Ken at Turretboards, but I think some of the eyelet spacing could be tightened up a bit and still have room for everything.

Anyone ever made their own boards?

[tubeswell]

Yeah I make my own boards all the time. Big savings

Just use good quality phenolic or other equivalent high-voltage switch panel board.

[Tele-Cat]

Originally Posted by tubeswell

Yeah I make my own boards all the time. Big savings

Just use good quality phenolic or other equivalent high-voltage switch panel board.

Got a favorite source? Do they cut to size or do you cut it yourself. I have no table saw.

[Leif H]

Tele-cat, looking good!

Im almost done my 5E3.

I had to laugh, here I am hunting down some Phillips head 10-32 screws for the chassis, ( all I have are wood screws with a phillips head) and you've got some Robertson Screws for yours! Some Canadian I am!

[Tele-Cat]

It's funny, it sounds almost exactly like the one Clay Hullett built for me almost 12 years ago. I wish I knew then what I know now, I could have built my own but it sounds so good, I don't think I could build it any better and it's all broken in now, getting that component drift that makes 'em sound even better.

[Leif H]

Originally Posted by Tele-Cat

It's funny, it sounds almost exactly like the one Clay Hullett built for me almost 12 years ago. I wish I knew then what I know now, I could have built my own but it sounds so good, I don't think I could build it any better and it's all broken in now, getting that component drift that makes 'em sound even better.

It's already broken in? Now that's a trick!!
I hope mine sounds that good.

I remember when I got my guitar home, and my old peavey SS didn't make me sound as good as the '57 Deluxe in the store did. That had tone / vibe / mojo had me sold.

[Tele-Cat]

No, the 5E3 I just built is for a friend. he bought all the parts. THe one I have, I've had since 1998.

The Hullett is broken in. The one I built is as fresh and clean as a newly-washed sheet.

[hasserl]

Hmmmmm, as opinionated as you were regarding Weber I thought you actually had some experience at amp building. Now we see this is your first 5E3. OK, that clarifies things a bit. Thanks for the info.

[Tele-Cat]

I have built a Champ, a 5F4 Super, and now a Deluxe. That makes three. Yes. this is my first 5E3, but by no means my first amp. How many amps have you built, Cletus?

Nice try with the ad hominem, but FAIL.

Besides, what do you care what I think of Weber? Is he your dad or something?

[Tele-Cat]

Originally Posted by Leif H

Tele-cat, looking good!

Im almost done my 5E3.

I had to laugh, here I am hunting down some Phillips head 10-32 screws for the chassis, ( all I have are wood screws with a phillips head) and you've got some Robertson Screws for yours! Some Canadian I am!

Don't know where in Canada you are, I got my hardware from Orchard Supply in Milpitas, CA. They have all sorts of machine screws including stainless, which I may use next time.

[hasserl]

OK, 3 amps. Wow, that clarifies things. OK. No ad hominem intended (isn't ad hominem a tactic used to subvert an opponents argument by destroying their character? Were we having an argument here that I wasn't aware of?) it's just nice to gain a perspective on where someone is coming from when they go public with criticism's of someone else's products & services (keeping in mind many people read these threads for information, your public criticism could end up costing those you criticize business. Think about the ethics involved). Maybe you could have clarified that where/when you made your criticisms, but perhaps that's expecting too much.

[Tele-Cat]

Originally Posted by hasserl

OK, 3 amps. Wow, that clarifies things. OK. No ad hominem intended (isn't ad hominem a tactic used to subvert an opponents argument by destroying their character? Were we having an argument here that I wasn't aware of?) it's just nice to gain a perspective on where someone is coming from when they go public with criticism's of someone else's products & services (keeping in mind many people read these threads for information, your public criticism could end up costing those you criticize business. Think about the ethics involved). Maybe you could have clarified that where/when you made your criticisms, but perhaps that's expecting too much.

As I said in SoWatt thread, I had a very negative customer experience with Weber. Out of courtesy, I'll refrain from detailing the experience but it soured me on Weber. Friends of mine have also had less than stellar customer experiences with Weber. Coincidence or conspiracy?

I don't think anything I say will cost Weber any business. His price points alone will ensure many customers. Certainly on the guitar boards, there are legions of acolytes who take any criticism of Weber as a personal affront, despite the fact Ted wasn't their kin, or even their friend.

As I said in the other thread, I prefer using higher-quality parts for my builds than Weber includes in his kits. Besides, I don't buy "kits" any more anyway, I have a BOM for a 5E3, a 5F4 and a 5F1, the amps I've built.

I also said, anyone who likes Weber stuff, more power to you. Rock on. His stuff just isn't for me.

Given our...head-butting in the politics section, I presumed your attitude from that forum was spilling over. If I am mistaken, I apologize.

I'm still a commie bastard.

[Leif H]

Originally Posted by Tele-Cat

Don't know where in Canada you are, I got my hardware from Orchard Supply in Milpitas, CA. They have all sorts of machine screws including stainless, which I may use next time.

I'm in a wee place called Toronto.

I was just searching the screw tray for stainless 10 - 32 screws and cup washers. we have lots of ss #8 oval heads, no machine screws, I guess I'm off to the hardware store.

[hasserl]

Originally Posted by Tele-Cat

Given our...head-butting in the politics section, I presumed your attitude from that forum was spilling over. If I am mistaken, I apologize.

I'm still a commie bastard.

One of the informal agreements we have around here is to not let politics get in the way of our appreciation of amps, electronics and sharing of information. Well, sometimes that happens. Let's try to get past that and say that although we can still discuss both issues, we wont get personal, and even so we'll try to not let one upset the other.

For instance, Enzo is a great help around here, top notch assistance from a guy with tons of real world experience. He helps people on all electronic topics, and he has helped me numerous times. He and I don't agree on politics at all, and sometimes we get into it a little on political threads. But when we get over here that is all set aside. We may not agree on politics, but I have enormous respect for him. No reason it can't work the same way for us. Cool?

[tubeswell]

I prefer to use a hand held fret saw and a bench vice, then I lightly file the edges smooth. Most table saws tend to rip the crap out phenolic.

Google phenolic board makers.

PHENOLIC

Edit - the 'best' phenolic for working with is apparently the linen impregnated stuff - altho' I have never tried this stuff myself (Simcha Delft told me this). While the paper impregnated stuff generally has higher electrical insulation properties but is more brittle. So that's why I prefer using a hand held fret saw. I get my board from a local supplier, so unless you are in NZ, its probably no good telling you who that is.

[Tele-Cat]

Originally Posted by hasserl

No reason it can't work the same way for us. Cool?

Hmm, how can I say this - as long as I don't get any more gas for not liking any given supplier. Cool?

[hasserl]

Originally Posted by Tele-Cat

Hmm, how can I say this - as long as I don't get any more gas for not liking any given supplier. Cool?

Likes and dislikes are subjective and make no difference to me.

I don't know you or your history. You were rather new around here when you made your comments about Weber. I didn't know if you actually had bad experiences with Weber, or you were following the anti-Weber herd mentality that afflicts a large number of relatively new builders and enthusiasts that get hooked up with certain websites where Weber bashing is the norm. I'm still unclear about it. I'm just sayin..... Consider if the shoe was on the other foot, think about if it was you that was the object of a rabid pack of web warriors and keyboard kung-fu masters. Wouldn't feel so great now, would it? Public diplomacy regarding other folks in this community is not a bad thing.

[Tele-Cat]

I didn't know if you actually had bad experiences with Weber, or you were following the anti-Weber herd mentality that afflicts a large number of relatively new builders and enthusiasts that get hooked up with certain websites where Weber bashing is the norm.

I don't know about herds, I don't play that one. I DO know that the very mention of Weber was banned on the 18-watt forum. I never did get the skinny why, but like Garth Brooks, he certainly seems to be a polarizing figure, even after his departure. While I'm sure there's quite a bit of herd-mentality bashing that goes on - when there's that much animus, something happened to get it started. That kind of animus doesn't just materialize for no reason.

I have said repeatedly and I will again, for emphasis, anyone who uses and likes Weber's stuff, more power to you. I and several friends and acquaintances had a very bad customer experience with Weber and I'm not a fan of the company's business practices, or their products.

It seems like for every detractor, there's an acolyte, which is to be expected.

But I have about had it with people who take any criticism of (fill in the blank) as a personal affront, like their lineage was being bashed. Ain't nobody talkin' 'bout anybody's mama (incorrect grammar on purpose), and that being the case, I believe people might be well-served to grow a couple extra layers of epidermis, and let it roll off their backs.

That's my last word on this discussion.

By the way, in my cab with my speaker (Emi Legend 102p) the amp sounds terrific.

[hasserl]

I DO know that the very mention of Weber was banned on the 18-watt forum. I never did get the skinny why,...While I'm sure there's quite a bit of herd-mentality bashing that goes on - when there's that much animus, something happened to get it started. That kind of animus doesn't just materialize for no reason.

Well, here's the skinny, and as you can see, there always two sides to a story. 18watt.com started as a small group of enthusiasts that wanted a place of their own to discuss building 18 watt clones. Out of that grew a few of the guys that were active there to supply parts, then kits. They had a cool little corner of the net goin, discussion about the 18 watt, and other amps/circuits, transformers, tubes, etc, and a nice small group of guys supplying parts ands kits. All very cool. And of course, all this time Weber was cool as far as everyone was concerned, they made great speakers, cool dudes, good service, etc.

Then Weber VST got in the business of supplying kits, an 18 watt clone being one of them. That changed everything. The kits were cheap, compared to the guys selling kits at 18watt.com they were real cheap. But as you know, Weber kits don't come w/ instructions, all you get is a schematic and a layout. IMO they're really not appropriate for newbies; but lot's, make that LOT'S, of newbies started buying Weber kits, then when they had problems building them they ended up over at 18watt.com asking for help. And Weber incorporated a version of the circuit where the trem channel is replaced with one using a cathode follower drive full tone stack, which the guys at 18watt.com had started doing first. And as anyone who's built one knows, these are not real easy to build, noise issues can drive you nuts. So, Weber 18 watt kit builders flocked to 18watt.com for help. This pissed off the guys that were selling kits over there, because they were being under cut by Weber on price, they felt like their cool little place was being invaded by Weber's customers that came there for support. Dude undercuts them on price and sends his customers to invade their place looking for help. AND their market on 18 watt clones was being upturned, including a version of something they kind of developed there, and they didn't like it. So the guys there started slagging Weber, and one guy in particular started really digging in on them, making a lot of derogatory statements about them. This guy was also an advertisor on 18watt.com, he bought advertising there. Ted wrote to the 18watt.com forum owners and asked them to put a stop to it, they didn't. So he threatened them with legal action, I think a letter from an attorney was sent. Sh!t hit the fan. 18watt.com closed down for awhile, and when it reopened the rules were all changed, including memebership had to be applied for and approved, no guests allowed, advertisers had to be acknowledged and no slamming of competitors was allowed. And all the 18watt guys got their panties all twisted up over it, and maybe they didn't talk about it on 18watt.com, but they did elsewhere. Suddenly it became fashionable to bash Weber. That's the skinny, you can check with others on the accuracy.

Now, about your issue. Dude, you've built 3 freakin amps. Do you even realize how many people have bought Weber products and had great experiences? Do you realize how long they've been in business, supporting the amp building community? Webers forum was one of the few places in the net to talk amps back in the old days. Good products, good services, support for the community. Certainly there have been messed up orders, it happens with every business. And I'm sure there have been faulty products, that happens too. Look at the huge amount of business done, and the numbers of bad service and faulty products is a pretty small percentage overall.

If you've had some bad experience, well, that's that. We don't know what it was, and can't judge how harsh it was, or not. But I say with 3 amps under your belt that hardly qualifies you as an industry expert to judge a company that has done a tremendous amount of business over quite a few years, with a lot of very satisfied customers. As someone with more than just a few amp builds ahead of you, my advice is, maybe you should give them the benefit of the doubt; they are a pretty good resource. Not every experience I've had with them has been positive, not every product has been stellar. But I can say that about any company. Cutting off a potential good supplier because of one bad experience or because it's fashionable in some circles to do so is not wise. And bashing someone who has been as involved the community for as long as they have aint cool.

[Tele-Cat]

Originally Posted by hasserl

Snip the skinny...

Thanks for that. However, I can understand people being hacked off about newbs with Weber kits looking for support while not having patronized those they expected support from. Sounds like a massive sense of entitlement to me.

I do have a question, and I asked it before. It's the same question you asked me: How many amps have you built, and which ones? I have one other question: how many amps do I have to build before I have a "qualified" opinion? My guess is you haven't built any more amps than I have, or you'd have waved it in my face.

You and I are not going to agree about this. I suggest you let it go, you have as much chance of convincing me of anything on this subject as you do in the politics forum and I'd just as soon not create any more...acrimony.

Let it go.

[unparalleled]

Originally Posted by Tele-Cat

I can tell you I replaced it with a 10-watt resistor (220 ohm instead of 250, closest I could get) and got it the hell away from that cap. I detect no audible difference

I wish I'd made the board a little neater. Next time. Of course, my next build, I'll probably make my own board. I like the boards from Ken at Turretboards, but I think some of the eyelet spacing could be tightened up a bit and still have room for everything.

Anyone ever made their own boards?

I use polycarbonate clear, No problems if you don't keep the soldering iron on the turret/ eyelet too long.

[fezz parka]

McDonalds makes hamburgers and sells a lot of them. Doesn't really mean they're the best burgers. Although some people might think they're great.

Nice work on the 5e3, Tele-Cat.

FWIW, it doesn't take an EE to build a simple circuit like a 5e3. It's like building a model. Follow the diagram, check your voltages, and it should be good to go.

[Tele-Cat]

Brother Fezz, thank you as always for your kind words. It sounds like I wanted it to sound, and that's the pudding where you find the proof, so whatever someone else says, doesn't really matter.

[Scott Auld]

Hi dudes. First post. Pete told me about this forum. I'm his customer for this build. I was just lurking but joined so I can see the links & attachments in all the others posts Great forum!

Peace

Scott A

[wyatt]

Originally Posted by Tele-Cat

It's funny, it sounds almost exactly like the one Clay Hullett built for me almost 12 years ago. I wish I knew then what I know now, I could have built my own but it sounds so good, I don't think I could build it any better and it's all broken in now, getting that component drift that makes 'em sound even better.

It's funny you should say that.

I bought my Deluxe around 12 years ago. At the time Clay was just starting to build, and Clark and Victoria were around and that was about it. The funny thing is, I couldn't afford the clones (they were all priced from $1200-1400, same price as a clean original at that time), so I bought a real '60 for $1,000 instead. It was stock (has had a cap job since) except the speaker and the cabinet is well worn (including an old beer stain), it even has to original asbestos bad inside the back panel (better to leave it there than disturb it). When I had some more $$$, I bought an old '60 Vox Alnico to put in for $250. So, eventually, it cost me as much as a clone.



Now, I can build my own easily enough, and there are more options for Tweeds than I can count. These days I keep thinking maybe I will sell the original before something happens to reduce its value (when prices go up again) and build a clone to replace it.

[Tele-Cat]

Yep, I got mine in '98, Clay charged me $1100. But as I said, it sounds so good, I can't let it go..

[wyatt]

Originally Posted by hasserl

Well, here's the skinny, and as you can see, there always two sides to a story. 18watt.com started as a small group of enthusiasts that wanted a place of their own to discuss building 18 watt clones. Out of that grew a few of the guys that were active there to supply parts, then kits. They had a cool little corner of the net goin, discussion about the 18 watt, and other amps/circuits, transformers, tubes, etc, and a nice small group of guys supplying parts ands kits. All very cool. And of course, all this time Weber was cool as far as everyone was concerned, they made great speakers, cool dudes, good service, etc.

Then Weber VST got in the business of supplying kits, an 18 watt clone being one of them. That changed everything. The kits were cheap, compared to the guys selling kits at 18watt.com they were real cheap. But as you know, Weber kits don't come w/ instructions, all you get is a schematic and a layout. IMO they're really not appropriate for newbies; but lot's, make that LOT'S, of newbies started buying Weber kits, then when they had problems building them they ended up over at 18watt.com asking for help. And Weber incorporated a version of the circuit where the trem channel is replaced with one using a cathode follower drive full tone stack, which the guys at 18watt.com had started doing first. And as anyone who's built one knows, these are not real easy to build, noise issues can drive you nuts. So, Weber 18 watt kit builders flocked to 18watt.com for help. This pissed off the guys that were selling kits over there, because they were being under cut by Weber on price, they felt like their cool little place was being invaded by Weber's customers that came there for support. Dude undercuts them on price and sends his customers to invade their place looking for help. AND their market on 18 watt clones was being upturned, including a version of something they kind of developed there, and they didn't like it. So the guys there started slagging Weber, and one guy in particular started really digging in on them, making a lot of derogatory statements about them. This guy was also an advertisor on 18watt.com, he bought advertising there. Ted wrote to the 18watt.com forum owners and asked them to put a stop to it, they didn't. So he threatened them with legal action, I think a letter from an attorney was sent. Sh!t hit the fan. 18watt.com closed down for awhile, and when it reopened the rules were all changed, including memebership had to be applied for and approved, no guests allowed, advertisers had to be acknowledged and no slamming of competitors was allowed. And all the 18watt guys got their panties all twisted up over it, and maybe they didn't talk about it on 18watt.com, but they did elsewhere. Suddenly it became fashionable to bash Weber. That's the skinny, you can check with others on the accuracy.

Now, about your issue. Dude, you've built 3 freakin amps. Do you even realize how many people have bought Weber products and had great experiences? Do you realize how long they've been in business, supporting the amp building community? Webers forum was one of the few places in the net to talk amps back in the old days. Good products, good services, support for the community. Certainly there have been messed up orders, it happens with every business. And I'm sure there have been faulty products, that happens too. Look at the huge amount of business done, and the numbers of bad service and faulty products is a pretty small percentage overall.

If you've had some bad experience, well, that's that. We don't know what it was, and can't judge how harsh it was, or not. But I say with 3 amps under your belt that hardly qualifies you as an industry expert to judge a company that has done a tremendous amount of business over quite a few years, with a lot of very satisfied customers. As someone with more than just a few amp builds ahead of you, my advice is, maybe you should give them the benefit of the doubt; they are a pretty good resource. Not every experience I've had with them has been positive, not every product has been stellar. But I can say that about any company. Cutting off a potential good supplier because of one bad experience or because it's fashionable in some circles to do so is not wise. And bashing someone who has been as involved the community for as long as they have aint cool.

IIRC, the straw that broke the camel's back was a thread on the "safety" of copper caps. I don't remember if it were libelous or not, but I think Ted wasn't about to have a viable product called into question on rumor and innuendo and risk facing an ill-educated backlash by the "great unwashed" (my term, not his) on the matter.

I have the greatest respect for Ted. He did a lot in a short time and I don't knock him for going overseas to provide product at a price point, it made sense to avoid competing in an all ready cluttered, high-end, America-made boutique market. He still offered his American-made specialty items, his speakers as well as products from other American producers. But Ted didn't have to worry about the business end, and those that had to deal with the one who did (have to worry about the business end), often walked away frustrated. Such is life, making ends meet in business is real tough.

[Tele-Cat]

Originally Posted by wyatt

IIRC, the straw that broke the camel's back was a thread on the "safety" of copper caps. I don't remember if it were libelous or not, but I think Ted wasn't about to have a viable product called into question on rumor and innuendo and risk facing an ill-educated backlash by the "great unwashed" (my term, not his) on the matter.

I have the greatest respect for Ted. He did a lot in a short time and I don't knock him for going overseas to provide product at a price point, it made sense to avoid competing in an all ready cluttered, high-end, America-made boutique market. He still offered his American-made specialty items, his speakers as well as products from other American producers. But Ted didn't have to worry about the business end, and those that had to deal with the one who did (have to worry about the business end), often walked away frustrated. Such is life, making ends meet in business is real tough.

As I've said, I have no problem with people who like Weber. More power to you.

I do notice Hasserl has yet, more than a week later, to regale us with how many amps he's built.

My guess is none.

[TD_Madden]

Originally Posted by Tele-Cat

By the way, in my cab with my speaker (Emi Legend 102p) the amp sounds terrific.

A 10-inch speaker or a misprint for 112P?

[Scott Auld]

Probably a mistype. I think Pete's told me he has an Eminence Legend 122P in his. He called it the best Jensen clone ever made, better than the RI Jensens.

[Tele-Cat]

Originally Posted by Scott Auld

Probably a mistype. I think Pete's told me he has an Eminence Legend 122P in his. He called it the best Jensen clone ever made, better than the RI Jensens.

Thanks Scott, you have it right. I have 102Ps in my Super.

[Diablo]

Originally Posted by Tele-Cat

As I've said, I have no problem with people who like Weber. More power to you.

I do notice Hasserl has yet, more than a week later, to regale us with how many amps he's built.

My guess is none.

Uh, I bet you're wrong, and I'm a very good guesser....
I'd also bet that his amps work.

Everyone has to get started sometime, and I've only been doing this for a little over a year. I've got 4 builds completed without issues. But, it wouldn't have been possible without the extensive knowledge of around a dozen folks on this forum and their willingness to share this knowledge. It must get tiresome for them to answer all of the same stupid questions over and over, when a new inexperienced builder shows up here. Most of them have amazing patience. The only real skill I have is being able to tell which of these guys really knows their stuff. The expert to goofball ratio is quite high on this forum, and that's a good thing.

[Tele-Cat]

Well, Hasserl thinks three amps built isn't eough to have a qualified about a vendor, and a crappy one at that. My experience with said vendor (an epic nightmare) isn't enough and I should give them a "second chance."

I'm REALLY fed up with Weber acolytes. If you like him that's fine but you're not the goddam Weber police, charged with excoriating anyone who doesn't worship at that particular altar.