Gibson weirdness SG P90 mounting....

[Possum]

If anyone ever contacts you wanting P90 pickups for Gibson SG reissues be warned they have a custom made baseplate in there and a mounting that is freaking strange, check this photo out. The pickup has been unBOLTED from the baseplate. The pickup ends up having TWO baseplates, this has gotta be the most screwball thing I've ever seen....

[David Schwab]

Weird! Maybe they were trying to get the shielding closer to the coil?

[Manlius]

Yeah, Reverend sells something like this on their site that I copied for the few customers who needed something like it.

http://www.reverendguitars.com/rever...0_bracket3.JPG

[Possum]

No, they were trying to boost the pickup itself UP higher. Does anyone know how the original SG P90's were intalled? This method is really cheesy, especially having TWO baseplates, creating eddy currents. Were the vintage ones just installed and adjust like normal soap bars were?

[J S Moore]

It's an upside down dog-ear baseplate. I've done a few of those, although I don't use the regular soapbar baseplate when I do it.

[Possum]

I know why they did it. Vintage SG's didn't do this, the SG's they are making use a single body with larger routs so they can do bucker or P90's. The routs are probably too deep to install P90s soaps the correct way, they came up with this dumb ass idea, double bass plates, typical Gibson shoddy work....

[Manlius]

I have an SG Jr. with this route, and it really isn't big enough for an HB, so I'm not sure they use a universal route on the SG. It's close, but I'd have to have short base legs, and clip a little wood out of it to make it fit. I also have an SG Standard with normal HB routes.
I think it is simply a manner in which they can attach the pickup to the pickguard, and perhaps they think the extra ability to change the height of the pickup is a positive?

[Possum]

I looked all around to see how an actual vintage one with P90s set in the pickguard were done but no luck there. The goofy part is they use a soap bar pickup with baseplate, then put the keeper on the bottom, probably a keeper inside the pickup as well, then put it on top of another baseplate, its kind of a mickey mouse idea. I suspect real vintage ones had baseplates made for that guitar.....maybe someone knows....

[J S Moore]

I don't think it's a vintage design. The SG Classic is the one that uses this particular method. The pickups mount right in the pickguard. Very prone to microphonics.

[jason lollar]

it is a vintage design used on some of the bat wing pickguard SG's
check out the 67 SG jr halfway down this page or three guitars down- first one photoed on the right Dr. Von Zuko's Guitar Museum The Gibson SG Jr.
they are not super common and the problem is the height adjustment screw spacing is not consistant- I have 4 different spacings cataloged.
I have made many of these- we call them bat wing pickgaurd mount P-90 soapbars.

[Possum]

Thanks Jason. I did find some photos showing those guitars with adjusting screws on the sides, but never any photos showing exactly how the vintage ones were done. The current Gibson one in the photo I posted seems ridiculous, TWO baseplates, and are there TWO keepers as well? It would seem to me they would have just used one baseplate upside down and mounted the pickup that; thats the only sensible thing to do. I scoured the web looking for photos of the backside of that guard but zero luck. Gibson does weird shit sometimes. I rewound their regular soapbar set years ago, they were bending the baseplates in a V shape, maybe to hold the magnets better, that would leave a gap under the keeper probably and make it squeal.

[jason lollar]

oh I see- yeah that is mounted wierd, the best photo I have of a vintage one is attached- not alot of detail but I know they dont look exactly like what you have shown but it wouldnt suprize me to see variations!

[Possum]

Thanks Jason, thats awesome. It does look like they did exactly the same thing, I think I can see that extra brass baseplate from the soap bar in there too. Do you know what size screw/thread those adjusting screws are, they look fatter than bucker mount screws.....

[Sweetfinger]

In the non-pickguard mounted sg's they adjust with wood screws through the pickup and into the body just like a LP special.

[Possum]

Yeah thats a much better method, though those SG's are pretty thin, I wonder if you could actually screw the adjustment screw right through the back of the body...

[jason lollar]

I am not sur abou the screws- I always thought they were 3-48 's because thats what I use= I am pretty sure they are!
I habe built over a dozen SG's from scratch in the last 6 years and you could screw through the back of the guitar for sure!!!
You can go on my myspace and see photos of a few of them- just in my photos albums
http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/inde...albumId=487849

[David Schwab]

Nice guitars Jason! I love the black archtop.

[Possum]

Do you ever make guitars anymore?

[RedHouse]

Originally Posted by jason lollar

I am not sur abou the screws- I always thought they were 3-48 's because thats what I use= I am pretty sure they are!
I habe built over a dozen SG's from scratch in the last 6 years and you could screw through the back of the guitar for sure!!!
You can go on my myspace and see photos of a few of them- just in my photos albums
Jason's My Photos Photo Album - MySpace Photos

My favorite of your SG's is that one with the small-block inlays.



And I like how you didn't put a 1st fret inlay on there like the one I used to have.

This one (Gibson) had an ebony fretboard and those small-block inlays way back in the day ('78):

[Possum]

You know I had a vintage SG once that I sold and kick myself now for doing that. It was one I have never seen since anywhere or in any SG reference book. It had slide switches but wasn't one of the crap early 70's that had those in them. The guy told me it was like a '64-'65 or in that era. I realize now from remembering the tone it had that it had early patents probably. That thing had amazing tone. I had a guy in a store demo one of the new Gibson SG's with P90s and it sounded like a TELE. Horrible guitar, mine was warm and sweet. I wonder if Gibson ever made anything worth a darn after 1968...

[RedHouse]

Originally Posted by Possum

....I wonder if Gibson ever made anything worth a darn after 1968...

Yep they do, but one has to pony up for the buy-in which is where most take a pass.

The late 90's onward Gibson Custom Shop stuff is really quite good. The "R" Les Pauls are as close as one can get to an original (not exact but close), they're very nice. My 2004 R9 is the best current chunk of wood I've owned.

Most of the "Historic" series long-tenon non-chambered/weight-relieved under 9-lbs stuff is pretty darn good IMHO.

The nay-sayers scoff-n-balk because of the price, but it's not all about the price is it?, just like cars, you can't get a 'Vette for the price of an Aveo.
(Vette's are also overpriced)

[automan]

Originally Posted by RedHouse

The late 90's onward Gibson Custom Shop stuff is really quite good.

I started working in the Gibson Custom Shop in '97, so I take full responsibility for their come back :smirk:

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by RedHouse

The nay-sayers scoff-n-balk because of the price, but it's not all about the price is it?, just like cars, you can't get a 'Vette for the price of an Aveo.
(Vette's are also overpriced)

Well for the price you get this lack of quality control. Think that fingerboard needed some sanding after it was machined? This is on a Les Paul Custom Historic.

I'm sure the frets were poorly leveled as well, which is the case with every Gibson and Fender I've seen since the mid 80's.

For the price you are better off going to a small builder.

[jason lollar]

that was a nice piece of wood on that SG. I dont own any guitars I made but I have an SG blanked out of some old honduras thats all striped and ribboned I am saving for me.

[RedHouse]

Originally Posted by David Schwab

Well for the price you get this lack of quality control. Think that fingerboard needed some sanding after it was machined? This is on a Les Paul Custom Historic.

I'm sure the frets were poorly leveled as well, which is the case with every Gibson and Fender I've seen since the mid 80's.

For the price you are better off going to a small builder.

There are allways exceptions, or maybe mine is the exception.

All the frets seem to high to me these days. Put a set of 10's on an off-the-shelf guitar and one can allways detune a note just by pressing harder.

[RedHouse]

Originally Posted by jason lollar

that was a nice piece of wood on that SG. I dont own any guitars I made but I have an SG blanked out of some old honduras thats all striped and ribboned I am saving for me.

Better late than never.

[Possum]

I have a friend with a Historic and he refinished it and says it sounds way better. He thinks they are using too much plasticizer in the finishes, so they're not finished the way they were. Still stuck in my mind is the email Gibson sent a guy who complained about the tuners on his Gibson not working right, they told him that "Gibsons aren't for players, if you want a guitar to play buy an Epiphone."

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Possum

I have a friend with a Historic and he refinished it and says it sounds way better.

I have a bridge I can sell him. Honest.

Oh and red guitars are louder.

"Gibsons aren't for players, if you want a guitar to play buy an Epiphone."

I've heard this before.... sad, isn't it?

[Possum]

Well if you're finishing a guitar with heavy plasticizers in it, its going to be more like a poly finish, i think he said the finish was thick too, that stuff does matter. From photos I've seen of vintage les Pauls from the classic era those finishes were pretty thin, which would allow the guitar to be more resonant. There is a video on youtube a comparison of a historic and DiMarzio's old 'burst played acoustically, the historic sounds bright and harsh, the vintage one sounds loud and mellow. We've argued about this before, poly and thick finishes make a hard edged sounding guitar. They aren't finishing them the way they originally were done.

[RedHouse]

Originally Posted by Possum

...Still stuck in my mind is the email Gibson sent a guy who complained about the tuners on his Gibson not working right, they told him that "Gibsons aren't for players, if you want a guitar to play buy an Epiphone."...

Yeah right.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by Possum

Well if you're finishing a guitar with heavy plasticizers in it, its going to be more like a poly finish, i think he said the finish was thick too, that stuff does matter. From photos I've seen of vintage les Pauls from the classic era those finishes were pretty thin, which would allow the guitar to be more resonant. There is a video on youtube a comparison of a historic and DiMarzio's old 'burst played acoustically, the historic sounds bright and harsh, the vintage one sounds loud and mellow. We've argued about this before, poly and thick finishes make a hard edged sounding guitar. They aren't finishing them the way they originally were done.

My experience is that the finish doesn't change the tone of a solid body guitar.

I've built guitars and played them with no finish, and then with finish, and they don't sound any different. Mind you I wasn't spraying on a 1/8" of poly, but I was using a catalyzed lacquer and also two part urethanes.

The mass of the body far outweighs the finish. To illustrate the point, get a banjo and spray some finish on the head and then when that's dry see if you hear any difference.

And how would too much plasticizers make a harsh sounding guitar? That would be a flexible finish. Oiled guitars don't sound harsh.

Now people that claim that removing the finish made the guitar sound better either sanded off some wood in the process, allowed moisture to get into the wood (like the people that leave the guitar unfinished), or just forgot what the guitar sounded like.

That's my opinion anyway.

[David Schwab]

Originally Posted by RedHouse

Yeah right.

I've read this quite a few times though. Gibson seems to think they are building guitars for collectors, not players. Why else would a Zakk Wylde Les Paul be $10,000? What's it made out of? Unobtainium?

Or $6,000 for a Slash signature LP... he didn't even play a real Gibson on those early GNR records!

It's just about greed and cashing in.

[Possum]

Jeez, David, this is an old argument, finish DOES make a difference. Again I'll repeat my experience with a cheap Squire strat I have. I got it for $99 from a guy to use as a test guitar. It has of course the poly finish, make in Malaysia. I hated that guitar from the start. It has the big headstock Fender design. Real harsh sounding. I hated it so much I decided to relic the crap out of it the easy way, so got out my heat gun and started melting off the finish and leaving burn marks in the wood. Then I sanded it too and got off most of the finish, it turned out very cool looking actually, and now it has Nick Curran and Kirk Fletcher's autographs on it to boot. The difference with the poly finish off was night and day. The tone of the guitar blossomed out and mellowed out significantly. I love that guitar now. Finishes don't matter? The difference between a poly finish and a thin nitro finish is audible. I have an Epiphone Les Paul and a cheap LP copy that has a thin nitro finish on it from the factory, the Epi sounds bright and hard, the other guitar sounds mellow and loud. The resonance of the wood is affected by what you enclose it in. Hard poly finishes sound like that, hard edged. Thin nitro sounds much softer and mellow. Maybe on a bass the finish doesn't matter but on a guitar where much higher frequencies are being reproduced it definitely makes a difference, and my friend's refinish of his Historic is just another example of that. He is a studio musician who's business is tone, he knows what he's hearing.

[David Schwab]

Like I said, you sanded the finish off. And probably some wood.

Start with a new guitar with no finish, and then apply finish and see. Then remove the finish and give it an oil finish. lol

Also the longer you play a new guitar the warmer it sounds. Just being string up a while does it. They all sound very tight and hard in the beginning. Thats why you have to hear one new with no finish to compare.

You know you will have less dead spots on the neck with a big headstock. it's good to have mass up there to counterbalance the string tension.

But I agree that most poly finishes are ugly and have no place on a guitar. Pedula makes a real nice bass with a polyester finish.

Red guitars are still louder though.

[Possum]

WHATTTT??????? Green flourescent guitars are WAAAAAY LOUDER!

Actually that strat still has finish on it, its not really a bare wood body. I have alot of poly finish guitars, none of them have warmed up over the years. I keep debating whether to sand off the finish on my Dot. I played Chris Cain's 335 80's reissue, that thing was super light and real resonant like the old ones. Occasionally one good one slips through the Gibson cracks now and then. I played a real recent 335 from Gibson, it didn't really sound any better than the Dot to be honest. And the guy got rid of it. Expensive wall furniture.....