LinkBack URL
About LinkBacks
Reply With Quotefirst find a way to change out batteries without losing yer programs
hide the screen. use the knobs and your ears to get the sound
make sure the input can handle the latest botique pedal
And did you ever notice that when you install a new piece of hardware, Windows goes out and finds a new hardware wizard that screws things up? Ever wonder why it doesn't find the old hardware wizard that did it the last time and knows what's changed?
It's because the new hardware wizard is a kid here on a visa. Lots cheaper.
first find a way to change out batteries without losing yer programs
hide the screen. use the knobs and your ears to get the sound
make sure the input can handle the latest botique pedal
I can totally agree about the whole bloated code aspect. Fortunately there's a lot of creativity out there now days in the software engineering field. Sure, big corporations and niche markets are still pretty dreary for the costs, but innovation is booming and the kids are learning programming logic younger and younger.
Phones are one of the most competitive markets for programmers right now because how the software FEELS is everything, and that's one of the hardest things to really get right. It was the difference between mario and all the other 2d scrollers that just didn't move well. Attention to detail makes a product last, and in that market products are in and out so fast you can blink and miss them.
I think a touch screen modeling amp could be done well, very well even, and will existing technology. It could run on a proprietary operating system, or take a cue from the rest of the world lately, go open source. Products that WORK sell. Unfortunately marketing departments for guitar companies don't truly know their audience in my opinion. They're far too concerned on how something will look on paper in a magazine, and not worried about what people will think when they're using it in the store. I can't count how many times I've found myself in a guitar store tweaking a Vetta trying to get something decent out of it and someone walks up and says "sounds good, too bad it took you an hour to do that though." And they're right. It shouldn't take that long to find something decent.
The reality is that a modeling amp can sound great on the bench of a studio desk. It can sound great for a studio musician that needs 100 types of tones that fit into a geo metro. Modeling amps give newer players something to experiment with and try new things. But they simply fail to WORK as they should.
Plug in a $100 Valve Jr into a decent cab and you'll be hard pressed to find a BAD tone. Just plug in and GO. With a modeling amp I have to SEARCH for that "tone" feature they seems to say this thing has hidden in it somewhere.
Bah /rant off.
I guess my point is that modeling CAN work, and I'd like to see it work. But the current lineup is kinda dismal. As I stated in my previous post, even the "kids" out there making "inaudible" music are using high end tube amps because modeling amps get painful to the ears and just don't work on a nationwide tour with 50 stops in 60 days lugging your gear in a trailer (surprise surprise).
Example: I've hung out with these guys, awesome people. They're not huge money makers, they lead worship at their church when they're not on tour. [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EezL-fFoJc"]YouTube- IMPENDING DOOM "More Than Conquerors"[/nomedia]
Or how about these guys, even less known, but tube tone all the way.
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaWUPLKakco"]YouTube- For Today - Agape[/nomedia]
I'm just saying that if THIS is what the kids are looking up to these days (which they are) then I think tubes are safe for a little while longer still.
I've blogged about this before:
scopeblog Less is More: Pay More, Get Less
The theme was "Pay More, Get Less". I argue that if you pay more for a tube amp, you get less controls and less options, but they were options you didn't need in the first place, so the lack of functionality actually makes it easier and more fun to work! You can quit worrying about the gear and just play music.
Another opinion I have of modelling amps is that they don't model classic amps, they model the programmer's idea of classic amps, and DSP programmers aren't always good, tasteful musicians. If the Line6 guy has a Fender Twin in his lab, there'll be some tone that he likes from it, and he'll set it up that way, and twiddle his DSP code to copy that tone. He might nail it perfectly, but does it follow from that that it'll do what *I* might want out of a Twin? I think this is what's meant when people say that modelling amps can be "one-dimensional".
I could probably make a DSP modelling amp that I'd enjoy playing as much as a tube amp, but I bet it wouldn't sell: it wouldn't have enough bells and whistles.
Also +1 on Enzo's comments about touch screens and knobs.
Computer-based "amps" can be interesting. Lately I've played the amp sims in GarageBand. They're remarkably good, but there's still noticeable latency, and I don't think that will ever go away on a desktop PC/mac platform.
"The aim is to create a magical mystery glow of dumblenosity" - Alex R
I think we still have a long way before we see stuff like this.
If not some new firm will enter the marked soon.
Look at what we have now. Line6 are so cheap that they're version of color screen is four different colored background LED's. Not sure Behringer even know what LCD are. Or better, haven't figured out how to copy it. But at least they are honest about they're stuff are made cheaply in China.
And Fractal, the only seriously builder out there doesn't even have amp knobs on they're simulator of today. If they had I buy it.
As a side note to the cost figures. Had to replace the touch screen on my kids Nitendo DSl. Total parts price including shipping under $3
Last edited by zzzapfizzz; 11-13-2009 at 10:37 AM.
...simplicity is simple, so why do so many people work so HARD at trying to make it 'simple complexity'?
...why's the Telecaster still so popular?--it's utter simplicity!
...why are we being "groomed" for continuous 'updates'?--because of MS's bugs.
...why isn't Fender's "digital" replication of its "analog" amps still around?--because the RI models are simple.
...change simply for the sake of change is just that--change--and too often NOT a positive improvement!
...just because something CAN be changed is NOT a valid reason for changing it!
...and the Devil said: "...yes, but it's a DRY heat!"
I'm with you OTM. I'm a firm beliver in the KISS principle. To be frank, as a player I really don't care what technology is used, if it gets me the sound I want I'll be happy with it. If that technology is digital modelling, so be it. If it's tubes, that's fine too. I really don't care. I want to be able to plug in and play and enjoy the experience, that's all.
As a hobbyest amp tweaker I enjoy playing with tube amps, not solid state and I wouldn't have a clue what to do with digital modelling as far as repairs, mods, etc. And I really don't care to learn either. Messing with tube technology guitar amps is fun, that's why I do it. When it's no longer fun I won't. And messing with digital modeling doesn't appeal to me.
Good discussion, guys. We'll see what happens.
ST in Phoenix
...some people like to "push" the envelope.
...others just like the envelope the way it is.
...both work, but for different reasons for different people.
...as the Fench say, "...vive le difference!"
...and the Devil said: "...yes, but it's a DRY heat!"
My old man-the metallurgical engineer-always used to tell me I was studying for my doctorate in obsolete technology. He also used to say that progress was a good thing but it's gone too far.Originally Posted by Old Tele man
Referring to a lot of this stuff, the old farmer that lives in my head would scratch his head and say "It's nice, sonny, but what does it DO?"
Donald Douglas was well known for what some called the Peoria standard. When engineering had produced the latest better mousetrap he'd say "Yes, yes, but how will it work in Peoria?" Unless there was a good answer it didn't get adopted-he did not like change for the sake of change-which is what my old man used to call Brownian motion, or 'a whole lot of heat but no light'.
I personally would like to get a nice flathead with a few improvements and put it in my Ford Ranger, even though the 3 liter engine therein makes more power and torque while burning less fuel.
Wow! that's "The Spirit Of Radio"!
God bless good ol' Neil Peart!
And, if memory serves me well, it goes on like this:
.....one likes to believe in the freedom of music
but glittering prizes and endless compromises
shatter the illusion of integrity, yeah!
Now, about that Windows OS on-board - do you really want the screen of your amp to turn blue in the middle of a gig and say: an error has occurred at "00EL84Hex" - your amp needs rebooting - turn it off, unplug your guitar - gently put it on the stand - get off the stage - repeat the above procedure in reverse order -
( BTW, I know the "L" in the above string is not hex, but the EL84 is the first valve that came in mind to me....after all I am a Vox addict! )
Cheers
Bob
Hoc unum scio: me nihil scire.
Your amp has been updated, it will automatically restart in 2 minutes.
Phos, I really would like to hear your vision for how this panel would be laid out. I have no clear idea in my head what you think it would look like.
Education is what you're left with after you have forgotten what you have learned.
- there's a lot to be said for the durability of non-printed circuit board wiring. A printed circuit board amp, tube or digital, won't put up with being dropped off the back of the van so many times as will one wired on a flexible eyelet board, unless there has been considerable investment in durability. Amps with touch-screens and printed circuit boards have a long way to go before they get as durable as most amps were 40 years ago.
Most of the complex modelling amps I see are used at home. Most of the gigging amps I see are of the KISS type. The home market is expanding I guess, and likely to go on doing so. Old-style amps (and the guys who repair them) are I think already very much a niche market.
It keeps the people who design, manufacture and sell it in a job.
Re durability, the instrument I just finished working on is supposed to survive a 6 foot drop test onto concrete. 6-layer boards, 500MHz processor and all. The stuff we're making just now is intended for on-site use by power company engineers, so it's going to get about the same abuse that a touring band's amps would.
A PCB-based amp, modelling amp or whatever, could be made as durable as you like. If anything, it could be made tougher, if it doesn't have any vacuum tubes to shatter. But I guess the makers prefer to use cheaper and flimsier components, so they can keep the price down and still make a profit. Home use is about right, Line6 stuff is built like a home stereo.
"The aim is to create a magical mystery glow of dumblenosity" - Alex R
At the risk of setting Chuck H off again
ST in Phoenix
First, let me say that all the comments about amps rebooting are fun (like the Microsoft car parody), but aren't really a concern here, IMHO. You guys that are techs for a living actually have a better insight than I do on how modern gear fails - Do keyboard players have a lot of problems with their computers restarting during gigs? What about all the rack processors? I've seen stuff fail, but it usually dies with an error message on the screen & it's over. These are not general purpose OS's. Nobody is loading 3rd party drivers into the kernel.
As far as displays, I'm only dreaming based on what I'm seeing with consumer electronics. I'm sure there are better visionaries than I out there, but here's an example of what I see (from left to right): A "picture" of a compressor pedal's control knobs (just like the real one you've selected) > a picture of an OD pedal's knobs > the faceplate of an amp (just like it looks on the real one) > a picture of a chorus pedal's knobs > a picture of a delay pedal's knobs.
I'm not sure what the simplest way is allow "changes" to the parts of the signal chain, but maybe a slider under (or next to) each "picture" that you can swipe with your finger. As you swipe, the different pedal or amp pictures cycle through like album covers do on an iPhone.
So, the appeal for the average player is that it looks just like the real gear, but with a swipe of your finger you can change things. There would obviously be some way to save a setup, too. On higher end models, you could have an "Advanced" button on each of the pieces that could be touched that adds more knobs - ones that aren't there on the originals. Players could use that feature or ignore it.
As far as user interfaces go, I think there has been a very real pushback against complex UIs by the average computer user and I see software & hardware makers responding. Sure, there are still complex programs that are overwhelming, but look at how many products now have "Lite" editions. There seems to be a real attempt by software makers now to make things easier to use. I don't think I'm the only one to notice that 50 year old managers who struggle with what I think are simple computer tasks use their iPhones with ease (and love them).
On a semi-related note, computing is going to the "cloud" - moving applications & data to secure data centers and requiring only an internet browser to work with them. Computers just need enough OS to boot & open a browser. There are lots of reasons to do this, and they're all about solving the kinds of problems everone jokes about when it comes to computers. It's easier for the users (no software to install or update, your data is not lost if your hard drive dies, etc.), it's easier for companies (update the servers & everyone gets the new version, no more attack vectors for viruses from users, etc.) and on & on it goes. We're going back to the mainframe model, in many ways. On-site IT guys like me will likely see our jobs disappear - computers will become another disposable appliance. We'll have to move to the big data centers or find something else to do for a living. But, I think you'll see it happen because it will be better for the end user - whether that's a home user or a business. Stand-alone, high powered computing platforms may become the next tube amp market.
When the technology gets to the point where modelling amps sound "close enough" to tube amps and are easy to use, then we should see a major shift. When users see it as "better", then they'll make the change.
Last edited by Phostenix; 11-14-2009 at 04:32 PM.
ST in Phoenix
Oh, and flexible, very tough flat displays already exist. I don't know if they are touch panels, but you can be sure they will be.
ST in Phoenix
With all the technology you would think that the would make an amp that would listen(Virtual Ears) to your "Ideal Tone" and then it could use some AI logic to mimic it with a "tone sampling servo loop" or something.
Then they could sell it to the people that want all the stuff that most can't afford to buy.
Regarding cloud computing - you're absolutely right Phostenix. The main market that's going to hold back the home user though is the gaming market. That is the most self-perpetual market I've ever seen, and it's BIG business. Hardware gets better, software companies break new boundaries, and then we need better hardware. People offering cloud computing services would loose too much money or ask for too much money in order to keep their hardware up to date all the time, and to handle the load swings of kinds getting of school and adults getting off work in the afternoon/evening.
Plus there's the latency issue, which already drives people nuts with games. You're talking about sending only about 1,500 times more data (even in a compressed image format) what is currently being sent and it's already an issue. The resolutions are going higher and higher, and we're now looking at a possible shift to multi-monitor setups require a substantial leap in power.
Cloud computing is the future, but it'll be hard pressed to truly take over. It's certainly wonderful for businesses though.
The last few places I have worked have used cloud computing. Where I work now uses Amazon cloudfront, and it's awesome. But it's no panacea. It's just another tool.
Cloud computing in the sense of google or amazon holding all the data in geographically dispersed facilities isn't going to replace a good old skool RDBMS behind lock and key. Some data (images, js files, css, etc) can be stored in the cloud. Some data (proprietary date, trade secrets, etc) needs to be secure. I don't think anyone would ever knowingly trust google or anyone else with proprietary data by putting it in any cloud anywhere.
People have been heralding the death of the relational database for years. And guess what? It's not going anywhere. Why not? Cause it works, people know how to use it, and oh yes, it works.
I don't think tube amps are going anywhere either. Guys like Dr Z, Bad Cat, and even, as much as I hate to admit it, Mesa Boogie are doing new stuff (or maybe even seemingly new stuff, or maybe presenting old ideas to a new crowd or in new ways) with tube amps. I think expecting modeling amps with touch panels to totally replace old skool tube amps is a bit like holding your breath for the flying car. Sure, maybe someday, but not in our lifetimes.
Shiny package of rusted wreckage
Fender Schematics Galore at http://ampedia.redbeartrading.com
I've never said they would "totally replace" tube amps. I'm sure there will always be a percentage of the market that will want tubes/valves (I have no guess what that percentage will be), but I do think that the "mainstream" market will move to modelling once the quality of the sims are very close & the user interface is simpler.
ST in Phoenix
At the risk of derailing this thread into a cloud computing discussion (which I don't want it to be), help me understand this. I'm not a gamer & don't follow gaming at all, but it seems like I hear people talking about multi-player internet gaming all the time.
ST in Phoenix
I don't think so either, but I think business will still use the technology in their own data centers. The advantage of a browser-based UI outweighs the limitations in many ways. I only brought it up because I think it somewhat analogous. There will always be applications where a general purpose/full featured OS will be necessary, but I think the majority of users would be better served by a computer system where they don't have to install or update anything & that is much harder to infect with spyware/viruses. It's also cheaper & easier to build. Lots of advantages.
In the same way, there will always be applications where a tube amp is considered the best choice. But, when players can get a box that not only sounds very close to the "real thing" but gives them a huge collection of "real things" and is easy to use, I think they will flock to it. It will be cheaper, more flexible, easier to move around, and easier to maintain. It will be cheaper to manufacture, too (and disposable & obsolete-able).
Purists will never be satisfied with modelling. There's nothing wrong with that. But, I don't think most people are purists.
ST in Phoenix
It just occurred to me that a year or so ago, I posted on a computer forum about how the browser based UI would eventually take over personal computing. I think I laid out how it would update, deal with hardware add-ons like cameras & scanners, etc. I don't remember it generating a discussion as good as this one, though.
ST in Phoenix
...for those who don't know, "Cloud Computing" is sorta like the addage: "...not keeping all your eggs in one basket..." ala' distributed archiving, with distributed backup, with advertising.
Last edited by Old Tele man; 11-16-2009 at 02:07 PM.
...and the Devil said: "...yes, but it's a DRY heat!"
I'll send a PM regarding what I was saying, to prevent further clutter of mine (sorry).
Yes, that's exactly how it works. Instead of keeping your eggs in a basket, you give them to Eggle (company motto: Don't be a bad egg) who keep them in a huge warehouse called the Eggleplex, and they mail you back one for breakfast every day, with a carefully targeted ad printed on it.
"The aim is to create a magical mystery glow of dumblenosity" - Alex R
This is something that sounds good to someone who doesn't know how to do it. DSP programming is harder than you'd think. I've spent some time with Line6's ToneCore dev kit and have implemented some simple effects. It is one of the more difficult things I've done, and I do embedded programming for a living. I imagine amp modeling to be an order of magnitude or two harder. The hobbyists who will be able to do much in this area are few.
I think the last thing most people want to fiddle with on stage is a computer. Especially a touch screen. Knobs, switches, etc, provide good feedback and can be operated while playing.
Basically I think tube amps with onboard effects will eventually take off.
Check out my signal generator for your iPhone or iPod Touch.
THey can have my tube amp...when I'm pushin' daisies. Not before.
Could I interest you in a Line 6 Variax?
ST in Phoenix
I'll play "My Generation" with it and then...well, you know...Could I interest you in a Line 6 Variax?
You Tele guys are hard core.
ST in Phoenix
Tele's a hard-core guitar, man.
LOL.
ST in Phoenix
Well played
Shiny package of rusted wreckage
Fender Schematics Galore at http://ampedia.redbeartrading.com
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks